Is this woman a transphobe?

[hitmouse]

They have followed up. It is something of a retraction.

Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

Alyson Escalante Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

theanarchistlibrary.org

I was literally just in the middle of posting that. Again, a bit tl;dr for me, but yeah, it's my impression that Escalante has shifted into a bit of a more old-fashioned trad Marxist position. Did also try to find their medium page but I think something about it may be a little bit off:

 

[elbows]

They have followed up. It is something of a retraction.

Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

Alyson Escalante Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

theanarchistlibrary.org

Typical, nihilism never amounts to much in the end

Anyway I've not finished this follow up yet having enjoyed the original, so I've nothing else to add yet.

 

[smokedout]

I do wonder though how/if the views of these young feminists will change as they get older.

I know my female friends and I have changed our views on a lot of things as being treated unfairly at work became more apparent, many of them were screwed financially and otherwise when they had children and still others suffered physical and/or sexual violence from men.

So I hope I'm wrong and overly pessimistic and things are improving but...let's see.

Well everyone's views change a bit as they age I guess but I think it would be a mistake to characterise young feminists as being obsessed with identity and trans issues to the exclusion of all else. It was young feminists primarily behind the recent demos after Sarah Everard's murder, or organising against the police bill, or groups like Sisters Uncut taking direct action against cuts to VAWG services. There's people doing stuff with women in detention centres, or fighting for social housing for lone parents, there's a prison abolitionist movement taking shape and growing movements against police violence and racism - there's a lot going on that is directly tackling male violence at both individual and institutional level, more than there was I think when I was more active in my 20s, and it deserves support even if the older generation don't see eye to eye with everything a lot of young feminists think. It'll be their world soon, and they will make it a different one, but hopefully a better one, I think the signs are quite positive, assuming of course there is a world to be made better by then.

 

[Sue]

Well everyone's views change a bit as they age I guess but I think it would be a mistake to characterise young feminists as being obsessed with identity and trans issues to the exclusion of all else. It was young feminists primarily behind the recent demos after Sarah Everard's murder, or organising against the police bill, or groups like Sisters Uncut taking direct action against cuts to VAWG services. There's people doing stuff with women in detention centres, or fighting for social housing for lone parents, there's a prison abolitionist movement taking shape and growing movements against police violence and racism - there's a lot going on that is directly tackling male violence at both individual and institutional level, more than there was I think when I was more active in my 20s, and it deserves support even if the older generation don't see eye to eye with everything a lot of young feminists think. It'll be their world soon, and they will make it a different one, but hopefully a better one, I think the signs are quite positive, assuming of course there is a world to be made better by then.

Oh i didn't mean to characterise them like that. I was just musing that some of the structural and societal inequalities and their consequences become much more stark as you age.

In my 20s, sure I'd experienced some shit. By my 40s, I'd experienced and seen way way more and the attendant consequences were much worse. So maybe the current priorities of those involved will change as they age too but who knows.

 

[bimble]

I was literally just in the middle of posting that. Again, a bit tl;dr for me, but yeah, it's my impression that Escalante has shifted into a bit of a more old-fashioned trad Marxist position. Did also try to find their medium page but I think something about it may be a little bit off:

View attachment 293409

Yeah, i had to navigate past those soupbowls too.
Their second piece of writing, the materialist retraction, makes me feel sad.
It feels cowed and submissive to the currents whilst the first was singular & truthful if a bit unworldly.

 

[smokedout]

I think one thing I've noticed following younger feminists and trans/queer people on twitter, largely due to this row, is that a lot of what was critiqued on here as obsessive identity politics has moved on. The whole privilege checking campus culture thing was a decade ago, that's half a lifetime if you're 20, and whilst the various movements emerging now have anti-racism, anti-transphobia, anti-misogyny etc in their veins they are becoming more concerned with more material and dare I say class based matters - such as prisons, the police, landlords, precarious employment, housing etc. In fact if there's a worrying tendency now I'd say it's a re-emergence of Marxist-Leninist thought in some quarters, as well as the seduction of Corbynite social democracy and radical liberalism but that's always been there, it's nothing new on the UK left.

 

[elbows]

Yeah, i had to navigate past those soupbowls too.
Their second piece of writing, the materialist retraction, makes me feel sad.
It feels cowed and submissive to the currents whilst the first was singular & truthful if a bit unworldly.

It had a weary air of inevitability about it. But then I probably considered it to be inevitable because I think some people are attracted to nihilism because they cannot sustain belief that reform will lead to the promised land. But they can still dream of something decent if only we were starting from scratch. Thus their nihilism tends to only be a temporary position, the urge to build in the space created by the obliteration of what has gone before will overwhelm their ability to settle on the void. Which isnt surprising, material conditions in the void are conditions of uninhabitability, there is no life support. The prospect of a fresh start has superficial appeal, but actually having that opportunity seems unlikely, would likely still be haunted by ghosts of the past even if it were somehow achieved, and wouldnt stay fresh for long. The risk of repeating the same old mistakes when either starting from scratch or looking to communism seems like it needs to be dealt with before going too much further along such paths.

Oh well, at least I found myself shouting 'categorise it and I will satirise it'.

 

[bimble]

It had a weary air of inevitability about it. But then I probably considered it to be inevitable because I think some people are attracted to nihilism because they cannot sustain belief that reform will lead to the promised land. But they can still dream of something decent if only we were starting from scratch. Thus their nihilism tends to only be a temporary position, the urge to build in the space created by the obliteration of what has gone before will overwhelm their ability to settle on the void. Which isnt surprising, material conditions in the void are conditions of uninhabitability. The prospect of a fresh start has superficial appeal, but actually having that opportunity seems unlikely, would likely still be haunted by ghosts of the past even if it were somehow achieved, and wouldnt stay fresh for long. The risk of repeating the same old mistakes when either starting from scratch or looking to communism seems like it needs to be dealt with before going too much further along such paths.

Oh well, at least I found myself shouting 'categorise it and I will satirise it'.

I think they were right the first time, it wasn't daft nihilism, liberation from gender inside yr own head (refusal to define your self in any fixed way, or align yourself at all in relation to the imposed power structures that are gender) is a valid and powerful and important thing to strive for, but, as they say in the second piece, maybe you can only live that way if you can afford it.

 

[elbows]

I think they were right the first time, it wasn't daft nihilism, liberation from gender inside yr own head (refusal to define your self in any fixed way, or align yourself at all in relation to the imposed power structures that are gender) is a valid and powerful and important thing to strive for, but, as they say in the second piece, maybe you can only live that way if you can afford it.

I like things such as dadaism and the original version of The Prisoner.

I observed with sadness, decades after the event, the obvious limitations of this approach when it was attempted in the 1960s etc. Internal liberation is possible to a certain extent, but there seem to be limits, and no shortage of dubious things waiting in the wings to be constructed in the space that opens up.

I am not that well read. I originally cheated somewhat by watching things like the episode of Adam Curtis's Century of the Self entitled "There is a policeman inside all our heads - he must be destroyed". I did not trust his narrative to provide a complete guide, but he offered up various fragments suitable for further exploration using decent sources. I havent watched it again for many years, I might rewatch it now to see what I make of it all these years later.

The Century of the Self - 3. There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads; He Must Be Destroyed

In the 1960s, the influence of Freud's ideas in the US was challenged by a radical group of psychotherapists. This film looks at the consequent rise of the

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bimble]

I like things such as dadaism and the original version of The Prisoner.

I observed with sadness, decades after the event, the obvious limitations of this approach when it was attempted in the 1960s etc. Internal liberation is possible to a certain extent, but there seem to be limits, and no shortage of dubious things waiting in the wings to be constructed in the space that opens up.

I am not that well read. I originally cheated somewhat by watching things like the episode of Adam Curtis's Century of the Self entitled "There is a policeman inside all our heads - he must be destroyed". I did not trust his narrative to provide a complete guide, but he offered up various fragments suitable for further exploration using decent sources. I havent watched it again for many years, I might rewatch it now to see what I make of it all these years later.

The Century of the Self - 3. There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads; He Must Be Destroyed

In the 1960s, the influence of Freud's ideas in the US was challenged by a radical group of psychotherapists. This film looks at the consequent rise of the

www.bbc.co.uk

ha. i was a maniacal fan of that, the century of the self, when it came out. I had to purchase a dvd version from Ohio as i recall, before streaming became a thing.
The piece of writing we both liked is not really about gender, its a bigger thing about how we might try to think about the self, whether it is a fixed thing and how we define it.

 

[Edie]

Thanks for the explanation.

I am ready to spend months considering the possibility that the boundaries of what counts as transphobia in my book may be part of the problem, and how I could improve on this. I have no idea how well I will do, I can only promise that I will try, and that I will spend much more time listening than posting.

If anyone has any reading material that they think may be useful in this regard, please let me know about it.

I am also still suffering from the lingering effects from threads years ago where things reached the stage where accusations of bad faith on all sides made reconciliation and calm reflection very difficult indeed. I believe I know what would diminish most of the negative suspicions I have about some people - if we could have just one thread where it was possible to discuss issues trans people face without all the other stuff about them being a threat to women in certain scenarios becoming a major topic. This is in no way, shape or form a demand that vital issues of womens safety not be discussed here, it is just a suggestion that if we had even one single space where all the issues trans people face could be discussed without that other stuff, it might help people to go beyond the prism of competing rights, to demonstrate clearly what rights of trans people they support and defend. We'll still have other threads where everything can be discussed as much as everyone desires. I say this in part because I've been thinking back to my various reactions over the years in various threads. One that hurt the most and that involved me clashing badly with you was because I could not cope with the apparent reality of u75 at that time that we couldnt even have a thread about trans victims of violence statistics without it being turned into something else, further marginalising the victims of that particular form of violence.

And no I dont really expect that suggestion to be met with acclaim. Its just a thought, given I would really like things to improve here, and that I can see some parallels with how hideous it is when threads about mens violence against women end up with some participants trying to muddy the waters by going on about examples of womens violence against men. We cannot eliminate whataboutery completely, but perhaps threads with narrow and unshakeable focus do reduce the potential to poison the well, and perhaps under those conditions shit-stirrers and those with genuinely transphobic views could be more easily spotted and kept at bay. And I'd really like there to be threads where my suspicions about the transphobia of others are easily crushed. Crushed by virtue of them being given somewhere where they can clearly demonstrate their pro trans rights beliefs without them feeling like they have to endlessly point out the other rights, struggles and safeguards they consider to ultimately be more important.

Even if this idea goes down extremely badly and stands no chance of happening, I'd probably feel a little better if there were more signs of more people understanding why I got so upset that threads about particular victims got turned into something else.

To be honest elbows I don’t really remember you getting upset, but then a lot of people were upset. I don’t have strong feelings about you either way. I mean go ahead and start a thread to discuss just issues of violence against trans people (with no discussion about the conflicts with womens rights) if you want. I won’t post on it if that would help you?

(Although ftr I’m obviously as horrified by violent abuse towards any vulnerable people, including trans people, as you are).

On the issue of increased polarisation, I’ve definitely become more polarised. That started very early on with being called a terf, then realising that believing anything less than twaw and full access would not be tolerated, regardless of womens fears. That’s the point I became very fucking cynical.

Anyway time I took a break from terfing about. Funny thing about that is I wouldn’t of even described myself as a feminist particularly back then. I did- and do- believe that men and women are naturally, biologically, suited to gender roles as a generalisation. I certainly don’t hold with the idea gender is predominantly socially determined, or we are women only because we have been raised as women or identify with women. As far as I can tell it’s clearly a GxE interaction. I think men and women are different but no less than each other for it. We have different strengths, different weaknesses.

I don’t think you can separate sex from gender, or sex from sexuality. I think gay people are sexually attracted to a persons sex- their body- as much as they are to gender. Or at least I am- 90% sex I’d say, I just wouldn’t want to have a sexual relationship with a woman even if she was manly in all her interests and how she presented or identified cos I’m just not gay, thinking about female bodies doesn’t turn me on, male bodies with their hardness and angles and the way they stand, move, hold themselves attract me. Nothing wrong with women who are attracted to women, it’s just not me! The idea that sex and gender and sexuality are independent doesn’t match my “lived experience” what can I say.

 

[Orang Utan]

Edie
I would recommend reading Cordelia Fine’s Delusions Of Gender and Testosterone Rex

 

[elbows]

To be honest elbows I don’t really remember you getting upset, but then a lot of people were upset. I don’t have strong feelings about you either way. I mean go ahead and start a thread to discuss just issues of violence against trans people (with no discussion about the conflicts with womens rights) if you want. I won’t post on it if that would help you?

(Although ftr I’m obviously as horrified by violent abuse towards any vulnerable people, including trans people, as you are).

Thanks, though I think I've demonstrated that I'm still not in a fit state to discuss these issue properly so I'll spend some months trying to listen and get myself in better shape before I consider wading into anything else. The entire idea might not have been sensible to actually try here at the moment anyway, and may just have been a desperate attempt to find a different way to try to explain why I get so upset with the direction things tend to be taken in.

 

[Edie]

Edie
I would recommend reading Cordelia Fine’s Delusions Of Gender and Testosterone Rex

Ooh ok will check them out. Ta.

 

[kabbes]

Ooh ok will check them out. Ta.

I would second it. Delusions of Gender is a masterwork.

 

[Edie]

Thanks, though I think I've demonstrated that I'm still not in a fit state to discuss these issue properly so I'll spend some months trying to listen and get myself in better shape before I consider wading into anything else. The entire idea might not have been sensible to actually try here at the moment anyway, and may just have been a desperate attempt to find a different way to try to explain why I get so upset with the direction things tend to be taken in.

Why do you get so upset if you don’t mind me asking? Is it personal for you in some way?

Not just aimed at you, but theres two problems with screaming terf or transphobe at women like me.

The most important is it leaves nowhere to go with language for those people who genuinely hate trans people, who think they should not be allowed to exist, have no provision made for them, think it’s justified to abuse them or even beat or murder them. People like this exist.

Whereas I think that people should be able to identify, look, dress, experiment, live how they want. And that provision should be made to keep them safe. And in the event I witnessed bullying, abuse or violence I’d get involved and I’m not shy when I’m angry.

Is this phobia? Fear? It’s not really is it. Is it even exclusionary? It’s a pretty liberal view it seems to me, a live and let live view. (I also doubt I’m a radical feminist but you seemed sure).

The second reason it seems stupid to throw those terms round is it polarises and excludes vast numbers of ordinary women with concerns. What’s the point of that unless your just interested in virtue signalling like ginger_syn . This is why ‘allies’ (urgh) are so keen to prove themselves by trying to start fights and make the situation worse. Best ignored.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Whereas I think that people should be able to identify, look, dress, experiment, live how they want. And that provision should be made to keep them safe. And in the event I witnessed bullying, abuse

Wow! Were those likes on Dylans' posts the other day just you rolling on your phone in yer sleep aye?

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Virtue signalling.

 

[dylans]

Wow! Were those likes on Dylans' posts the other day just you rolling on your phone in yer sleep aye?

I completely agree with her. I have no issue with anyone dressing or living as they wish. If someone wants to identify as, live as, dress as a woman, fine. They should be allowed to live their lives in peace and with dignity. Nothing I have said implies otherwise.

The issue I have is when the demand is made that I accept trans women are actual women or should be given access to safe women's spaces. This is do not accept. I do not believe that a person can change sex, sex is a biological fact and is immutable and binary in mammals and human beings are mammals. I do not accept that identity can change biology. I don't think its controversial to state that only a woman has a cervix or that lesbians cannot have a penis or that men cannot give birth. In fact I think the entire idea is absurd and borderline mysticism. I think the likes of Kier Starmer tying himself in knots unable to state a simple uncontroversial biological fact was entirely disingenuous. It is not trans people or people expressing themselves according to female stereotypes that I object to, it is trans ideology that says I am a bigot if reject the mantra that trans women are women.

 

[belboid]

Why do you get so upset if you don’t mind me asking? Is it personal for you in some way?

Not just aimed at you, but theres two problems with screaming terf or transphobe at women like me.

The most important is it leaves nowhere to go with language for those people who genuinely hate trans people, who think they should not be allowed to exist, have no provision made for them, think it’s justified to abuse them or even beat or murder them. People like this exist.

Whereas I think that people should be able to identify, look, dress, experiment, live how they want. And that provision should be made to keep them safe. And in the event I witnessed bullying, abuse or violence I’d get involved and I’m not shy when I’m angry.

Is this phobia? Fear? It’s not really is it. Is it even exclusionary? It’s a pretty liberal view it seems to me, a live and let live view. (I also doubt I’m a radical feminist but you seemed sure).

The second reason it seems stupid to throw those terms round is it polarises and excludes vast numbers of ordinary women with concerns. What’s the point of that unless your just interested in virtue signalling like ginger_syn . This is why ‘allies’ (urgh) are so keen to prove themselves by trying to start fights and make the situation worse. Best ignored.

The fear you have of trans women is out of all proportion to the danger they represent to you, ie it is an irrational fear. Which is the definition of phobia.

 

[Edie]

The fear you have of trans women is out of all proportion to the danger they represent to you, ie it is an irrational fear. Which is the definition of phobia.

I don’t feel that fear, any more than I have a general mistrust of men. I’d call that a healthy wary ness, but it doesn’t stop me having male friends or a relationship with a man.

I am twitchy as hell about men I don’t know in my personal space mind you. I’m alert. In my experience it’s pretty common for men to flirt, give you the come on, get too close, not want to take no for an answer, follow you round, have expectations about you. Even in public. In bars, clubs, on dates, I’ve often used the toilets as a way to get away. That’s probably why I’m not wild on completely gender neutral facilities, altho I wouldn’t object if that’s all a place had.

One of the scrub nurses at work is trans and I’ve no problem with them, I dunno which theatre changing room they use (the womens is a communal space with only toilet cubicles, where you change into scrubs and get your crocs on etc).

If this is your definition of phobia I think it’s meaningless.

 

[Cloo]

But to me the heart of this is not that women like Edie are scared of/phobic of trans women. It's that they are scared of men and it's men's misogyny and violence (and the patriarchy's underresourcing of women's safety) that creates a barrier for trans women entering spaces seen as safe for women. Not women's unkindness or irrationality.

I don't have that fear of blokes but then I'm not an abuse survivor and I seem to have had a far more positive experience of guys than most women and while, as I've said, I have no problem with trans women in my 'spaces', I'm not going to say other women who aren't comfortable with it due to bad experiences with men should give their heads a wobble and just accept it.

 

[belboid]

I don’t feel that fear, any more than I have a general mistrust of men. I’d call that a healthy wary ness, but it doesn’t stop me having male friends or a relationship with a man.

I am twitchy as hell about men I don’t know in my personal space mind you. I’m alert. In my experience it’s pretty common for men to flirt, give you the come on, get too close, not want to take no for an answer, follow you round, have expectations about you. Even in public. In bars, clubs, on dates, I’ve often used the toilets as a way to get away. That’s probably why I’m not wild on completely gender neutral facilities, altho I wouldn’t object if that’s all a place had.

One of the scrub nurses at work is trans and I’ve no problem with them, I dunno which theatre changing room they use (the womens is a communal space with only toilet cubicles, where you change into scrubs and get your crocs on etc).

If this is your definition of phobia I think it’s meaningless.

But you wouldn’t think it was a phobia because your fear (or mistrust, I don’t think the distinction really matters) is proportionate, in your opinion. It is also perfectly normal for people to have a generalised ‘fear’ of another group but to have no issues with individuals from said group. Boris Johnson appoints quite a few people of colour to his cabinet but it doesn’t stop him from being a racist shit.

 

[Wilf]

Perhaps its more a trans person would feel uncomfortable using the disabled toilets the same way any reasonable abled bodied person would, i know I feel uncomfortable using disabled toilets while i can still manage to get into a standard cubicle, even though I have issues with mobility.

Yes. Whatever the issues being discussed here, whichever 'side' you are on, 'use the disabled toilets' is not the answer. If nothing else, depending on conditions, disabled people might be less able to wait for the toilet.

 

[belboid]

I'm not going to say other women who aren't comfortable with it due to bad experiences with men should give their heads a wobble and just accept it.

I don’t think anyone should say fears should just be ignored, they are understandable, even if misplaced. But to what extent should those fears be allowed to be a veto on providing services/access to others?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Some women are wary of transwomen because of male behaviour.
Some transwomen are wary of men because of male behaviour.

We have a common problem.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I completely agree with her. I have no issue with anyone dressing or living as they wish. If someone wants to identify as, live as, dress as a woman, fine. They should be allowed to live their lives in peace and with dignity. Nothing I have said implies otherwise.

The issue I have is when the demand is made that I accept trans women are actual women or should be given access to safe women's spaces. This is do not accept. I do not believe that a person can change sex, sex is a biological fact and is immutable and binary in mammals and human beings are mammals. I do not accept that identity can change biology. I don't think its controversial to state that only a woman has a cervix or that lesbians cannot have a penis or that men cannot give birth. In fact I think the entire idea is absurd and borderline mysticism. I think the likes of Kier Starmer tying himself in knots unable to state a simple uncontroversial biological fact was entirely disingenuous. It is not trans people or people expressing themselves according to female stereotypes that I object to, it is trans ideology that says I am a bigot if reject the mantra that trans women are women.

Very polished, well done. The memory of your other posts just fades away.

I'm not really giving much of a fuck who you think should access our spaces, there's a lot of discussion over multiple threads on what that sort of access looks like and it doesn't amount to "abused women, just give your heads a wobble!", I don't suppose there's any point in me going over what other posters have explained far more eloquently than I have, so feel free to read back on the posts in question, you may learn a lot.

Speaking as someone whose very first experience with men was my abusive father, the way I feel about transwomen accessing shelters is that I recognise that in many ways transwomen are even more vulnerable than I am. I trust the women working at these Shelters would be able to tell whether someone was escaping abuse or whether they were trying to pull a fast one- the latter situation I would imagine is very rare indeed. I understand from reading back on posts from someone that works at a Shelter that their "stance" on this matter is that they take these things on a case by case basis, and I can't think of a more reasonable position to take.

Because the alternative here, given there are no spaces for transwomen specifically to access, is that a transwoman escaping violence is simply turned away and expected to fend for themselves. People that are actually experienced in this area are not allowed to use their judgement and explore all options- it has to be blanket ban, computer says no type of thing. And you are insisting that I- an abuse victim- must be ok with leaving another person that has experienced the same thing as me, or worse, to fend for themselves while we wait for alternatives that aren't likely to emerge any time soon. This must be my take on it right, because I'm a woman? Well I'm not ok with this, I never will be. Their abusers are same as those that abuse me. We are both running from the same brutal misogynist men.

 

[IC3D]

As I said before I use disabled toilets for my daughter and had dirty looks for doing so a couple of times, if necessary she goes into the womens on her own if I feel its safe. I don't even feel comfortable with her being out of my sight in the instance. If there was a man in that space I wouldn't do it. I could read pages of argument for how Im wrong but that fact isn't going to change.

 

[belboid]

As I said before I use disabled toilets for my daughter and had dirty looks for doing so a couple of times, if necessary she goes into the womens on her own if I feel its safe. I don't even feel comfortable with her being out of my sight in the instance. If there was a man in that space I wouldn't do it. I could read pages of argument for how Im wrong but that fact isn't going to change.

How would you know? And how would you feel about a mid-transition trans man (Beard but no penis, say) using that toilet? How would you check?

 

[ginger_syn]

Why do you get so upset if you don’t mind me asking? Is it personal for you in some way?

Not just aimed at you, but theres two problems with screaming terf or transphobe at women like me.

The most important is it leaves nowhere to go with language for those people who genuinely hate trans people, who think they should not be allowed to exist, have no provision made for them, think it’s justified to abuse them or even beat or murder them. People like this exist.

Whereas I think that people should be able to identify, look, dress, experiment, live how they want. And that provision should be made to keep them safe. And in the event I witnessed bullying, abuse or violence I’d get involved and I’m not shy when I’m angry.

Is this phobia? Fear? It’s not really is it. Is it even exclusionary? It’s a pretty liberal view it seems to me, a live and let live view. (I also doubt I’m a radical feminist but you seemed sure).

The second reason it seems stupid to throw those terms round is it polarises and excludes vast numbers of ordinary women with concerns. What’s the point of that unless your just interested in virtue signalling like ginger_syn . This is why ‘allies’ (urgh) are so keen to prove themselves by trying to start fights and make the situation worse. Best ignored.

Its not virtue signalling, I just dislike bullies and bigots