Is this woman a transphobe?

[smokedout]

I think it's undeniable that some of the behaviour of usually younger trans activists (and often allies) has been less than helpful and that misogyny, transphobia, and homophobia has played a part on all sides - the way Glinner treated women who disagreed with him on twitter was equally problematic. And these are powerful social forces which few movements if any are immune from.

But there is another dynamic within this which probably a lot of people weren't aware of. The original terfs, who were mostly US based although not exclusively, had been waging war on trans people for decades. Blogs like twansphobic were outing trans people and mocking them - ordinary trans people not activists - for years before this row broke out. In the 70s' lesbian feminist group The Gorgans turned up with guns in an attempt to intimidate a trans women and more than one person was physically attacked. In the UK, the lesbian sex wars as they became known sought to expel trans people from the growing LGB movement. People like Cathy Brennan and Janice Raymond played an active role in attempting to suppress trans healthcare in the US, with some success. The reason trans activists started wearing masks was because they were frequently outed by rad fem blogs (as they called themselves back then) and humiliated online. In this context the idea to host Julia Long as the main speaker at the Hyde Park event which really sparked this conflict on the left was a massive provocation, a bit like claiming you have reasonable concerns about immigration then booking Nick Griffen to be your main speaker. Long is one of the most notorous transphobic rad fems in the UK and has been equally hostile to sex workers - as have many others within her orbit. This very small tradition within radical feminism is openly trans eliminist, proud of it in fact, and has caused real harm to trans people over the years.

This is where the the initial resistance to terfs came from. The problem is a lot of people walked right into the middle of that, with what probably were genuinely reasonable concerns or questions, and had likely never even heard of Julia Long and Sheila Jeffreys and the rest, but became unwittingly associated with them. The nature of online debate only excerbated these tensions but what sparked it could probably be best described as a fuck up* - in that some people on the left became unknowingly associated with deeply transphobic individuals and others responded to that in a completely over the top way because they assumed that some curious random who went to a meeting was part of the same current as Long, Jeffreys, Brennan etc.

*although if you look back at the meetings being held by Sheila Jeffreys and others around 2013/14 I'd argue it was a loosely planned fuck up. And then the right wing press decided to join in, whilst the far and religious right also jumped on the bandwagon further inflaming tensions.

Just to add to this, I also think it has to be acknowledged that there is a huge power disparity at play in this conflict in terms of age, access to the media, and also class. Contrapoints, who has probably taken more shit from angry young queer kids than anyone, talks about how when you look at the timelines of those abusing her they are often literally begging for money for healthcare or housing because they've been kicked out of their home by their families. For all the characterisation of the trans movement as being comprised of Soros funded middle class students in reality many trans people, and especially young trans people are homeless, sex workers, unemployed, and have experienced a great deal of violence and discrimination due to being trans. They have no power in society, beyond being able to scream fuck you terf on twitter and so that is what they do.

The gender critical movement is largely a movement of lawyers, academics, politicians and celebrities who seemingly have open access to the right wing press to say what they want no matter how damaging to trans lives and in our society this is seen as all very normal, and polite and middle class - it's 'reasonable debate'. Trans kids don't have that power, and if a riot is the language of the unheard then that is what lies behind a lot of the most virulent shit on social media. That's not a defence of it at all, but it seems to me pretty unavoidable that a highly marginalised group of often very young people is not likely to respond to this debate in the same way as someone who can just ring up The Spectator and broadcast their views to hundreds of thousands of people without consequence.

 

[Sue]

Along similar lines to a post I made yesterday, it should possible to criticise the way some individuals express their fears without being accused of dismissing the fears themselves.

Sure, but the bit in bold

What I'm not clear on is where kindness fits in. Id like to think id always try and treat people with kindness and vulnerable people even more so. I don't see this happening with the whole trans debate or gender critical feminist behaviour and arguments. I see more selfishness and "defending our tribe" than reaching out and trying your best even in difficult and confusing situations.

seems to be conflating some women's fears for their physical safety with selfishness and encouraging them to 'try [their] best even in difficult and confusing situations' seems pretty dismissive of those fears really.

 

[andysays]

Sure, but the bit in bold


seems to be conflating some women's fears for their physical safety with selfishness and encouraging them to 'try [their] best even in difficult and confusing situations' seems pretty dismissive of those fears really.

I actually meant to respond to your reply to two sheds , TBH, but messed up a bit because I was on my phone. Now I'm home and on a proper keyboard I don't have that excuse and will try to do this point justice.

The comment you've bolded could be seen as dismissive of someone's fears, but it could also be read as saying, in effect, even if you have genuine and valid fears, you can still try your best to express them in a way which isn't divisive, which doesn't contribute to inflaming an already difficult conversation about a difficult situation.

 

[bimble]

I think (and I'm happy to be shot down in flames with better arguments and corrections) that there's stuff going on with this debate that's to do with online radicalisation, as has been discussed in other contexts.

Yes. I think this happened to me though of course i didn't see it that way at the time.
It fits my experience to say that a few years ago i got radicalised online, on terfy twitter (have never joined in on twitter i just read it).
Took a while to realise amongst other things 1) how willing some people there were to pal up with arseholes of the highest degree as long as they thought they were vaguely aligned on this one thing and more importantly 2) what reading this stuff was doing to me (nothing good, made me angry and scared). Deleted terfy twitter ages ago and am much happier for it but am probably by most criteria still a terf. Not sure its of primary importance what anyone thinks in the privacy of their own heads tbh think its words & actions that matter more, thats where i'm at at the moment anyway.

 

[Sue]

I actually meant to respond to your reply to two sheds , TBH, but messed up a bit because I was on my phone. Now I'm home and on a proper keyboard I don't have that excuse and will try to do this point justice.

The comment you've bolded could be seen as dismissive of someone's fears, but it could also be read as saying, in effect, even if you have genuine and valid fears, you can still try your best to express them in a way which isn't divisive, which doesn't contribute to inflaming an already difficult conversation about a difficult situation.

I can't see what two sheds posted or my reply.

 

[andysays]

I'm not sure how helpful this is, elbows. Edie has explained on here the physical and sexual violence she's experienced at the hands of men and why she's worried about the potential consequences of self-identification as they affect refuges etc.

Whether those fears are justified in this context or not, I have no idea but those fears certainly exist for quite a lot of women (and I'm guessing those who've experienced that violence in the past are the most worried about it). Back to the skin in the game thing, eh?

Eta If you're trans fair enough. But keeping in mind how scared some women genuinely are is probably a good idea whatever.

This was the post I originally meant to quote.

I don't think elbows was dismissing Edie's fears, I think they were criticizing the way they were expressed, and TBH I think those criticisms are valid, though I totally accept that the fears themselves are real and need to be addressed rather than dismissed.

 

[Sue]

This was the post I originally meant to quote.

I don't think two sheds was dismissing Edie's fears, I think they were criticizing the way they were expressed, and TBH I think those criticisms are valid, though I totally accept that the fears themselves are real and need to be addressed rather than dismissed.

Ah it was elbows . I was very confused there...

Anyway, I think this feeds into a wider feeling many women have that their thoughts/fears/whatever are often dismissed/ignored by men but maybe I'm extrapolating here.

 

[andysays]

I can't see what two sheds posted or my reply.

Sorry, I've further confused matters by getting the name of the poster wrong.

See post 1956 for the point I was actually trying to make, attached to your response to the correct poster.

Apologies all round.

 

[andysays]

Ah it was elbows . I was very confused there...

Anyway, I think this feeds into a wider feeling many women have that their thoughts/fears/whatever are often dismissed/ignored by men but maybe I'm extrapolating here.

I don't think you're extrapolating unreasonably; I think it's understandable that people have different perspectives and what one person reads one way will be read differently by a different person.

 

[elbows]

Ah it was elbows . I was very confused there...

Anyway, I think this feeds into a wider feeling many women have that their thoughts/fears/whatever are often dismissed/ignored by men but maybe I'm extrapolating here.

Its a very real aspect of the way these issues have been discussed over the years. Unfortunately its ruthlessly exploited to the detriment of both those underlying concerns and trans rights. One of the clues about this is the way that the right-wing press who are utterly uninterested in improving the fundamental situation for women have made heavy use of these angles.

Since the transphobic exploitation of this issue creates a dense minefield for men who care about both womens rights and trans rights, this area is one where trans-inclusionary feminists have a lot to offer, they can bypass a lot of the most overtly bogus angles.

 

[RebelSpart]

So on the Aimee Challenor thread I mentioned that women get suspended off twitter for saying they are women and that twitter has gained a reputation for being aggressively anti-gender critical feminists and pro-TRAs. I was challenged for examples - fair enough - and I gave one, but this one came up in my twitter feed today which is another example where I genuinely struggle to see how anyone can meaningfully call this thread "transphobic"

View attachment 260797

I've cut and pasted the rest of the thread below;




Anyway, this is what happened.


View attachment 260798

What am I missing if I don't think this thread is "transphobic"?

Vicky is right, but even if one disagrees with her, there is nothing hateful in what she said. Truth be told, this fake political correctness is not leftist or progressive; it is just the elites and their obedient chattering classes trying (successfully) to distract attention from the crucial issues faces the world, like climate change and rising wealth disparity (as opposed to income disparity -- another distinction these same elites avoid like the plague!)

 

[Edie]

I'm open to suggestions if you have any in regards detail and angles you'd like to discuss further.

I'd certainly say the subject gets messy in part because many of us may face some internal contradictions or difficulties in finding the right balance. Do you find yourself struggling with that at all? Do you end up framing things as competing rights and then not have much trouble working out which of those takes priority as far as you are concerned? Have you considered the possibility that a potential solution is not to view things through the prism of competing rights?

Describe what I’ve said is trans phobic. You don’t have to bother trawling back looking for quotes. I want to know what it is you find trans phobic about what I say.

You have accused me of it. Back it up, or apologise.

 

[elbows]

Vicky is right, but even if one disagrees with her, there is nothing hateful in what she said. Truth be told, this fake political correctness is not leftist or progressive; it is just the elites and their obedient chattering classes trying (successfully) to distract attention from the crucial issues faces the world, like climate change and rising wealth disparity (as opposed to income disparity -- another distinction these same elites avoid like the plague!)

I wouldnt say its much of a distraction from those other things, its more of a polarisation that can then be used in those other battles.

Also social conservative lost a lot of ground in recent decades, lost when it came to things like same sex marriage. The prospect of an area they can hope to gain victories in is something they are unable to resist.

 

[RebelSpart]

I wouldnt say its much of a distraction from those other things, its more of a polarisation that can then be used in those other battles.

Also social conservative lost a lot of ground in recent decades, lost when it came to things like same sex marriage. The prospect of an area they can hope to gain victories in is something they are unable to resist.

I oppose all types of gender hatred, but there are consequences concerning the recognition of transgender people as women, especially in sports. It is ridiculous and unfair to have a former special forces man transed to women compete in female MMA.

 

[elbows]

Describe what I’ve said is trans phobic. You don’t have to bother trawling back looking for quotes. I want to know what it is you find trans phobic about what I say.

You have accused me of it. Back it up, or apologise.

A full case requires a huge number of things you've said to be combined into a broad view of your overall stance. Picking on single examples will quite possibly not meet the standards people seek, but sure, I'll give a recent example anyway.

Lets take this post for example: #1,852

You consider trans women to be men who consider themselves women. And you state that you do not care about the opinions of men. So is it unreasonable to conclude that you do not care about the opinion of trans women?

I'll repeat this exercise numerous times if thats what people really demand. But probably a more useful guide as to your exact feelings will not come from me arguing with you, it will come from things like you actually bothering to answer questions others have asked of you such as #1,930

 

[Edie]

A full case requires a huge number of things you've said to be combined into a broad view of your overall stance. Picking on single examples will quite possibly not meet the standards people seek, but sure, I'll give a recent example anyway.

Lets take this post for example: #1,852

You consider trans women to be men who consider themselves women. And you state that you do not care about the opinions of men. So is it unreasonable to conclude that you do not care about the opinion of trans women?

I'll repeat this exercise numerous times if thats what people really demand. But probably a more useful guide as to your exact feelings will not come from me arguing with you, it will come from things like you actually bothering to answer questions others have asked of you such as #1,930

I believe women have the right to have a say about whether we allow men or men who identify as women or trans women into spaces where we are vulnerable. And that men don’t get to over rule us. So with respect to the debate about women’s spaces, I do not care about the opinions of men.

In what way is that trans phobic? Is saying a trans woman is not literally a woman trans phobic? That’s the crux of it.

It’s not trans phobic to think that. And I reject you trying to tell me what I must believe when all the evidence I have says that isn’t true.

So I reject that I must consider men who identify as women, actual women. And I maintain that women alone should determine our spaces in order to protect ourselves.

 

[l'Otters]

It always seems to come down to 'trans women are women'- for a lot of people, saying anything less is transphobia, but for others the implication that a trans woman must be treated exactly the same as all other women clashes in some scenarios with women's rights. The nearest thing we have to a compromise is 'trans women are women [except in a couple of very specific situations]' but then I can see that undermines the concept of trans women being women. What I don't know is how most trans women feel about this - it's not clear to me whether all/most trans women find that caveats utterly upend any possibility of them being accepted as women and must be fought at every turn, or if many might see it as understandable. Because a lot of the time it seems to be 'allies' rather than trans women themselves making the most noise about this, certainly in terms of attacking anyone who suggests such things.

all of women do not have the same needs or risks. There’s a whole stack of markers which increase / decrease my level of risk in a situation (I’m not going to try and make this an objective scale but) eg, height, physical build, skin colour, class, how well I pass as female, how able bodied I am.. etc. My past experiences are going to impact on this too.

When I said this is about women’s safety, and women’s safety, this is also what I mean. There isn’t just one experience of being a woman.

I have not read the intervening 2 pages of replies since this morning yet.

I think it would be interesting to see where a discussion on this subject got to if all the cis men left it alone.

I also think expecting anyone who is trans to engage on this level is asking way too much. Hats off to those who do, despite the level of shit involved.

 

[elbows]

I believe women have the right to have a say about whether we allow men or men who identify as women or trans women into spaces where we are vulnerable. And that men don’t get to over rule us. So with respect to the debate about women’s spaces, I do not care about the opinions of men.

In what way is that trans phobic? Is saying a trans woman is not literally a woman trans phobic? That’s the crux of it.

It’s not trans phobic to think that. And I reject you trying to tell me what I must believe when all the evidence I have says that isn’t true.

So I reject that I must consider men who identify as women, actual women. And I maintain that women alone should determine our spaces in order to protect ourselves.

Thanks for the explanation.

I am ready to spend months considering the possibility that the boundaries of what counts as transphobia in my book may be part of the problem, and how I could improve on this. I have no idea how well I will do, I can only promise that I will try, and that I will spend much more time listening than posting.

If anyone has any reading material that they think may be useful in this regard, please let me know about it.

I am also still suffering from the lingering effects from threads years ago where things reached the stage where accusations of bad faith on all sides made reconciliation and calm reflection very difficult indeed. I believe I know what would diminish most of the negative suspicions I have about some people - if we could have just one thread where it was possible to discuss issues trans people face without all the other stuff about them being a threat to women in certain scenarios becoming a major topic. This is in no way, shape or form a demand that vital issues of womens safety not be discussed here, it is just a suggestion that if we had even one single space where all the issues trans people face could be discussed without that other stuff, it might help people to go beyond the prism of competing rights, to demonstrate clearly what rights of trans people they support and defend. We'll still have other threads where everything can be discussed as much as everyone desires. I say this in part because I've been thinking back to my various reactions over the years in various threads. One that hurt the most and that involved me clashing badly with you was because I could not cope with the apparent reality of u75 at that time that we couldnt even have a thread about trans victims of violence statistics without it being turned into something else, further marginalising the victims of that particular form of violence.

And no I dont really expect that suggestion to be met with acclaim. Its just a thought, given I would really like things to improve here, and that I can see some parallels with how hideous it is when threads about mens violence against women end up with some participants trying to muddy the waters by going on about examples of womens violence against men. We cannot eliminate whataboutery completely, but perhaps threads with narrow and unshakeable focus do reduce the potential to poison the well, and perhaps under those conditions shit-stirrers and those with genuinely transphobic views could be more easily spotted and kept at bay. And I'd really like there to be threads where my suspicions about the transphobia of others are easily crushed. Crushed by virtue of them being given somewhere where they can clearly demonstrate their pro trans rights beliefs without them feeling like they have to endlessly point out the other rights, struggles and safeguards they consider to ultimately be more important.

Even if this idea goes down extremely badly and stands no chance of happening, I'd probably feel a little better if there were more signs of more people understanding why I got so upset that threads about particular victims got turned into something else.

 

[smokedout]

all of women do not have the same needs or risks. There’s a whole stack of markers which increase / decrease my level of risk in a situation (I’m not going to try and make this an objective scale but) eg, height, physical build, skin colour, class, how well I pass as female, how able bodied I am.. etc. My past experiences are going to impact on this too.

When I said this is about women’s safety, and women’s safety, this is also what I mean. There isn’t just one experience of being a woman.

I have not read the intervening 2 pages of replies since this morning yet.

I think it would be interesting to see where a discussion on this subject got to if all the cis men left it alone.

I also think expecting anyone who is trans to engage on this level is asking way too much. Hats off to those who do, despite the level of shit involved.

I think this is interesting and is what people like Butler mean when they talk about the social construction of sex. Of course there are physical differences between the sexes and it is important to recognise that but often this becomes entangled with assumptions about what womanhood and manhood mean which are actually based on gender rather than sex and often rooted in patriarchy. So men are always stronger, being a mother is an intrinsic part of womanhood, the experience of manhood and womanhood is universal across cultures and ages etc. This came up in an earlier thread discussing Linda Bellos' threat to beat up autogynephiles in toilets - lots of gender critical minded people ridiculed the idea this could be a threat, she's a 60 year old woman after all, but as Bellos said, she plays football, she boxes, and a non-disabled 60 year old woman in good shape who is trained to fight would probably wipe the floor with most 60 year old men. It seems however hard people try sex always becomes entangled with gender which is why the original radical feminists, as Finn Mackay points out in their latest Guardian article, had the aim of “not just the elimination of male privilege but of the sex distinction itself: genital differences between human beings would no longer matter culturally”. Firestone and Dworkin were far closer to Butler on this question than they are gender critical feminism, and if there's a point of departure between the two movements it would be attitudes towards sex work rather than acknowledging the social construction of sex.

In this context gender critical feminism is not a radical movement, it's a conservative movement that asserts that men are always stronger and inherently violent so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces and ferociously police the borders of womanhood to prevent any males from entering those spaces. That's an understandable position, but not a radical one that seeks to overthrow the whole fucking applecart as the orginal radical feminists did. Anyway its a tangent and I'm probably waffling a bit but just something I'd been thinking about and excuse to plug Finn's latest piece

 

[bimble]

Have you got the book @smokedout ? why are 'academic' books so bloody expensive. i do really want this one but am too mean.

When you say that gender critical feminism is "a conservative movement that asserts that men are always stronger and inherently violent so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces and ferociously police the borders of womanhood to prevent any males from entering those spaces. "

I suppose you are referring to 'the terfosphere' or something, as seen on twitter etc, but do you think there exists at all a contemporary movement that is both feminist and properly critical of the whole gender applecart? Or is that just not a thing any more.
I want that, genuine 'gender critical' thought, and gender destruction, set the whole thing on fire, and am not personally interested much in the women's spaces safety problem, but do recognise that's cos i am lucky and not traumatised by or fearful of men to the degree that very many women are.

 

[smokedout]

Have you got the book @smokedout ? why are 'academic' books so bloody expensive. i do really want this one but am too mean.

When you say that gender critical feminism is "a conservative movement that asserts that men are always stronger and inherently violent so the best women can hope for is to establish safe spaces and ferociously police the borders of womanhood to prevent any males from entering those spaces. "

I suppose you are referring to 'the terfosphere' or something, as seen on twitter etc, but do you think there exists at all a contemporary movement that is both feminist and properly critical of the whole gender applecart? Or is that just not a thing any more.
I want that, genuine 'gender critical' thought, and gender destruction, set the whole thing on fire, and am not personally interested much in the women's spaces safety problem, but do recognise that's cos i am lucky and not traumatised by or fearful of men to the degree that very many women are.

I want it too but it is a bit expensive and I'm not very good at reading books anymore so haven't really kept up. I think it is there though, I haven't read Full Surrogacy Now, but that seems to echo the second wave calls to smash up the nuclear family and radically rethink human reproduction. I think Firestone would very much have approved of the trans pregnancy project, although I suspect that as in Firestone's writing there's an element of optimism about what technology might achieve. More abstract movements like Xenofeminism also lean towards that tradition.

It's there in Queer/Trans and anarchafeminism as well, I think a lot of people, myself included, support gender abolition whilst recognising people should have the right to exist in ways which enable them to function and be healthy/whole within the confines of the current system. I have some optimism with what's happening with the younger generation as well - people say there's hundreds of different genders now as if it's a bad thing, but can gender, as a means of enforcing male dominance over women really continue to function as it has under such circumstances. Is this is first real fracture-line in the gender binary or will those born physically male continue to dominate those born physically female, and more masculine genders dominate more feminine genders, I don't know, time will tell, but it seems worth a try.

The last couple of trans rights demos I've been on really reflected that something interesting is happening. In appearance at least the (very young) crowd looked a lot like you might imagine a world without gender to look - butches in ballgowns, fey non-binary folk with bushy beards, trans women in three piece suits, really a world away from the idea that this is a movement based in stereotypes - you'd be hard pressed to pin a gender or even guess the physical sex of quite a few people there. I know presentation isn't everything, although it's an important component of gender, and fashions change, but a new paradigm seems to be emerging and it made me feel hopeful.

 

[LDC]

I get a thank you in Full Surrogacy Now, that's my (very limited) claim to fame! I found it thought provoking and worthwhile, yeah your summary of it is about right smokedout. Xenofeminism was recommended to me but it made me feel very old, it was like some sixth form art project the way it was designed.

 

[bimble]

Yes. Thats why i'm optimistic in the longer term.
I think we're in the middle of something and can't see it very well at all from here, added to that being old doesn't help.
But the 'there are hundreds of genders now and all of them have a flag isn't that ridiculous' thing, I agree, it's silly but its good, it mostly just means that young people are talking about this stuff and questioning it in a way that was unthinkable before. I get the feeling its mostly girls doing this but idk, still good.
My brain says, they should be advocating to broaden the meaning of the word woman, not counting themselves out of that category but still, I think that's a time thing, maybe it is a process.
I'm not going to go on tiktok and pick a gender though i'll just sit in my armchair and wait for it to all pan out.

 

[hitmouse]

I suppose you are referring to 'the terfosphere' or something, as seen on twitter etc, but do you think there exists at all a contemporary movement that is both feminist and properly critical of the whole gender applecart? Or is that just not a thing any more.
I want that, genuine 'gender critical' thought, and gender destruction, set the whole thing on fire, and am not personally interested much in the women's spaces safety problem, but do recognise that's cos i am lucky and not traumatised by or fearful of men to the degree that very many women are.

I think I might've mentioned these before on another thread, but there's:

Falling star: Countering gender essentialism with sex essentialism

Red and Black Leeds on the limitations of both gender essentialism and sex essentialism as a way to understand gender expression and identity.

libcom.org

Which I have read, and then ones that I haven't but I've heard/seen plugged around quite a bit are:

Gender Nihilism: An Anti-Manifesto - Alyson Escalante

Alyson Escalante's critiques of the trans community's reliance on gender essentialism and a proposal for a radical negation as the solution to gendered alienation and oppression. To be included in the upcoming anthology Fuck Your Gender Neutral Prison! A Nihilist Insurrection Against Gender...

libcom.org

Against the Gendered Nightmare

baedan Against the Gendered Nightmare Fragments On Domestication 2014

theanarchistlibrary.org

Which might be part of what you're looking for, although that baedan one in particular does also look a bit bloody unreadable to me? Can't say I'm a fan of Lewis, although again that's partly just a prose style thing.

 

[bimble]

Gender Nihilism: An Anti-Manifesto - Alyson Escalante

Alyson Escalante's critiques of the trans community's reliance on gender essentialism and a proposal for a radical negation as the solution to gendered alienation and oppression. To be included in the upcoming anthology Fuck Your Gender Neutral Prison! A Nihilist Insurrection Against Gender...

libcom.org

loving this.
Absolutely fearless and imo wonderful, thanks for posting, the apologetic addendum is so sad.

eta just read it again. Still love it and agree wholeheartedly.

"The negation of all things, ourselves included, is the only means through which we will ever be able to gain anything."

But this is basically radical buddhism (sort of) and it is not going to catch on in a big way. I am totally sold though.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

loving this.

Quick reply, did they have you at "burn to the ground"

 

[smokedout]

Yes. Thats why i'm optimistic in the longer term.
I think we're in the middle of something and can't see it very well at all from here, added to that being old doesn't help.
But the 'there are hundreds of genders now and all of them have a flag isn't that ridiculous' thing, I agree, it's silly but its good, it mostly just means that young people are talking about this stuff and questioning it in a way that was unthinkable before. I get the feeling its mostly girls doing this but idk, still good.
My brain says, they should be advocating to broaden the meaning of the word woman, not counting themselves out of that category but still, I think that's a time thing, maybe it is a process.
I'm not going to go on tiktok and pick a gender though i'll just sit in my armchair and wait for it to all pan out.

Yeah I get really frustrated and quite depressed at a lot of the sneering aimed at younger feminists and queer people by the older generations. I kind of half hoped my generation would be above that but it seems perennial. Sure there are faultlines on trans people and sex work, but things change, for the better and the worse, some things will stick some won't but there are a lot of very committed young feminists doing some important and interesting stuff and they deserve better than to be dismissed as blue haired idots who don't even know what a woman is.

I've seen people connected with groups like the LGB Alliance bemoaning that young people who call themselves queer are just heterosexuals larping because it's trendy and I thought that's fucking incredible (if probably not really true). Straight people are pretending to be Queer because it's cool, that's a victory, clear and unequivocal, compared to the way the world was went I went to school. But the LGB Alliance seem to be furious about it. There's a huge component to all this that seems to be typical generational whinging that things were better in the old days and the kids don't understand anything anymore. I think the kids understand a lot more than we think and I worry that the relentless smearing of libfems, or the woke, or blue haired queers by the older generations of feminists and LGBT people (who themselves were similarly smeared) is really abandoning our duty to support young feminists and LGBTQ people at a time when the far right is on the rise globally - and they won't care whether someone calls themselves a lesbian, or gay, or queer, or trans or nonbinary, or even an adult human female, they will come for us all.

 

[Sue]

Yeah I get really frustrated and quite depressed at a lot of the sneering aimed at younger feminists and queer people by the older generations. I kind of half hoped my generation would be above that but it seems perennial. Sure there are faultlines on trans people and sex work, but things change, for the better and the worse, some things will stick some won't but there are a lot of very committed young feminists doing some important and interesting stuff and they deserve better than to be dismissed as blue haired idots who don't even know what a woman is.

I've seen people connected with groups like the LGB Alliance bemoaning that young people who call themselves queer are just heterosexuals larping because it's trendy and I thought that's fucking incredible (if probably not really true). Straight people are pretending to be Queer because it's cool, that's a victory, clear and unequivocal, compared to the way the world was went I went to school. There's a huge component to all this that seems to be typical generational whinging that things were better in the old days and the kids don't understand anything anymore. I think the kids understand a lot more than we think and I worry that the relentless smearing of libfems, or the woke, or blue haired queers by the older generations of feminists and LGBT people (who themselves were similarly smeared) is really abandoning our duty to support young feminists and LGBTQ people at a time when the far right is on the rise globally - and they won't care whether someone calls themselves a lesbian, or gay, or queer, or trans or nonbinary, or even an adult human female, they will come for us all.

I do wonder though how/if the views of these young feminists will change as they get older.

I know my female friends and I have changed our views on a lot of things as being treated unfairly at work became more apparent, many of them were screwed financially and otherwise when they had children and still others suffered physical and/or sexual violence from men.

So I hope I'm wrong and overly pessimistic and things are improving but...let's see.

 

[elbows]

But this is basically radical buddhism (sort of) and it is not going to catch on in a big way. I am totally sold though.

 

[bimble]

They have followed up. It is something of a retraction.

Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

Alyson Escalante Beyond Negativity: What Comes After Gender Nihilism?

theanarchistlibrary.org

'If gender operates not merely at the ideological or symbolic level, then a response which does operate only at that level is inadequate. As such, I am quite convinced that the model of resistance proposed in Gender Nihilism needs to be rejected, and a new model developed on the basis of a material investigation into the material base which produces the ideologies of gender and difference which Gender Nihilism was so obsessed with rebutting. The rest of this essay will attempt to do that work.'