Is this woman a transphobe?

[IC3D]

How would you know? And how would you feel about a mid-transition trans man (Beard but no penis, say) using that toilet? How would you check?

Are you trying to change my views or entrench them?

 

[Athos]

... Because the alternative here, given there are no spaces for transwomen specifically to access, is that a transwoman escaping violence is simply turned away and expected to fend for themselves. ... And you are insisting that I- an abuse victim- must be ok with leaving another person that has experienced the same thing as me, or worse, to fend for themselves while we wait for alternatives that aren't likely to emerge any time soon.

I think most people find this line of argument - that trans women should be admitted because of the harm they're likely to suffer otherwise - much more persuasive than the idea that they should be admitted because 'trans women are women'. That so many have picked the latter as a hill on which to die has been a counterproductive tactical blunder.

 

[belboid]

Are you trying to change my views or entrench them?

I’m asking you a couple of fairly straightforward questions. Ones that would, do, crop up when people are forced to use toilets corresponding to their sex as assigned at birth.

 

[smokedout]

But to me the heart of this is not that women like Edie are scared of/phobic of trans women. It's that they are scared of men and it's men's misogyny and violence (and the patriarchy's underresourcing of women's safety) that creates a barrier for trans women entering spaces seen as safe for women. Not women's unkindness or irrationality.

I don't have that fear of blokes but then I'm not an abuse survivor and I seem to have had a far more positive experience of guys than most women and while, as I've said, I have no problem with trans women in my 'spaces', I'm not going to say other women who aren't comfortable with it due to bad experiences with men should give their heads a wobble and just accept it.

It can be both. Given the age of most posters on this forum, and how transphobic society was when we were growing up, I'd be pretty astonished if anyone isn't carrying some latent transphobia, I certainly am. The stigma of femininity in men, and masculinity in women is centuries old and baked into our culture and it's only very recently that has started to come apart almost immediately followed by a massive backlash against trans people using many of the same tropes as open transphobia did, but now intellectualised and laundered by what's actually quite a conservative strand of feminism - it's a fetish, they're not safe round children, it's a mental illness, they're confused homosexuals etc. And this activates many more latent social prejudices against disability, mental health, homophobia, and misogyny - it violates gender, the glue which holds patriarchy together and which we almost all reproduce to some extent no matter how hard we try not to. I wonder how many gender criticals have actually done the work about unpacking all that and how societal transphobia might have influenced their thoughts - because you know, I'm not transphobic, I don't support trans people being murdered or beaten up, is a pretty low fucking bar, transphobia is somewhat more complex than that.

In addition there has been a virulent online and right wing media campaign against trans people and that stuff works. There's a reason the right wing press runs a picture of Karen White with every trans story if they can possibly get away with it. It's powerful and it works on a level often beneath our intellectual understanding. Someone absorbed in the gender critical world is being bombarded with constant misinformation, and all the other tactics which have been used by bigots to promote hate - hyper focus on the tiny number of trans criminals, or internet oddballs, or those with the most extreme political views - it's exactly how benefit claimants were turned from victims of un unjust system to enemies of the state by the press and it's depressing to see people on the left who resisted that falling for all the same techniques when it comes to trans people. The emotional impact of being told Ian Huntley is trans and naming himself after the mother of the girls he murdered stays with you far longer than the impact of finding out it wasn't true, which is actually just a bit embarrassing if you've been going round insisting it was (potentially creating yet another negative emotional response, if it hadn't been for those bloody trans everywhere I wouldn't have made a fool of myself). So even if you think you can recognise the misinformation, it stills works, it sinks in on some level and it helps form your picture of trans people and your emotional response to them. That's why I'm genuinely interested why Edie cautiously welcomed trans people into toilets and changing rooms three years ago but now it's a hard line. Fear of male violence (and suppressed rage at women's oppression) has been activated many times historically against minorities, it's what the Dworkin quote I posted earlier in the thread speaks to, so I don't think it's really legitimate to suggest that the gender critical movement is motivated solely by the fear of men and transphobia plays no part. That very understandable, and sadly all too justified fear can be used as a shield to avoid examining other possible factors at play and gender critical feminism provides a perfect intellectual framework to justify latent prejudices without ever having to admit to yourself that you might be being a bigot.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I think most people find this line of argument - that trans women should be admitted because of the harm they're likely to suffer otherwise - much more persuasive than the idea that they should be admitted because 'trans women are women'. That so many have picked the latter as a hill on which to die has been a counterproductive tactical blunder.

I'm old enough that I can give younger people the space to make tactical blunders, especially if they are kicking out at a society that is being incredibly hostile towards them. So are most people on urban. I really struggle to sympathise with women my age that just couldn't help flying to the right because of these tactical blunders. Am I the wanker? Usually am I guess

 

[Athos]

I'm old enough that I can give younger people the space to make tactical blunders, especially if they are kicking out at a society that is being incredibly hostile towards them. So are most people on urban. I really struggle to sympathise with women my age that just couldn't help flying to the right because of these tactical blunders. Am I the wanker? Usually am I guess

Yeah, I get where it's coming from. Just a shame that something so difficult to resolve - a disagreement about whether or not trans women are women - has become the focus of the debate, rather than, say, the shared interests of cis and trans women in protecting themselves and each other from male violence. I do think it's resulted in some people who were formerly broadly trans inclusive joining some pretty dodgy groups. The fault for that lies with the bigots trying to pull people, those who push people away with unreasonable demands of complete adherence to particular ideological aspects, and those who allow themselves to be moved so easily.

 

[Cloo]

Some women are wary of transwomen because of male behaviour.
Some transwomen are wary of men because of male behaviour.

We have a common problem.

Exactly this - I think all women, cis and trans need to be looking at how we can secure more support for all women and our common issues. The trouble with social media is that it has reduced everything to a shouting gallery where well-meaning people often feel they have to ride in to support 'the most disadvantaged party', which they understandably see as trans women, by having a go at cis women. But it's not an oppression contest the end of the day - all women are fucked over by the patriarchy and parts of the patriarchy is having fun making hay about 'Oh we must protect the womens from those terrible trans rights activisists', while avoiding responsibility for actually helping any women.

I've heard it said that Dom Cummings floated trans rights as a good 'culture war' for the Tories to profit by dividing and ruling - don't know if true or not, but all too plausible.

 

[a_chap]

... get your crocs on

One of my favourite Rolling Stones songs

er... I'll get my coat.

 

[elbows]

Yeah, I get where it's coming from. Just a shame that something so difficult to resolve - a disagreement about whether or not trans women are women - has become the focus of the debate, rather than, say, the shared interests of cis and trans women in protecting themselves and each other from male violence.

If a big chunk of the debate in some quarters has stagnated on that these days, I think its only fair to mention what much of the heated debate was actually about leading up to that point.

There were proposed changes in regards self-identification and official gender recognition. There were some concerns. Some people used those concerns as an opportunity to gain ideological traction, sometimes in the service of specific versions of feminism that had previously been lacking momentum in the current era. Its important to note that I say some people, not all the people who had such concerns. Those who were doing it because they could make it fit a very specific feminist ideology were not going to be interested in turning it into a discussion about shared interests, they cant weaponise the concerns if that happens, and indeed they tended to resort to especially extreme language and accusations when other people tried to take it in that direction.

To somewhat answer Edies question to me about why I get so upset, the above is one of the big reasons in the last 5 years here for me. It was pretty blatant at the time but of course there were also legitimate areas of concern in some of the stuff that came up as a result, and emotive aspects made it hard to unpick the fair from the cynical misuse of the fair, a massive polarisation multiplier had been unleashed.

Let me be more specific about that - I was especially alarmed that during the course of discussions about proposed changes regarding self-identification, it became apparent that some people didnt understand the trans rights that were already enshrined in law. They sometimes said things which suggested they were not just alarmed by proposed expansion to those rights or the practical application of them, but that they also didnt believe some of the existing rights and rules should be in place. And when I asked them about this directly, I almost never got a reply. That silence was more than uncomfortable, and rightly or wrongly I drew certain conclusions as a result. People who fear some rights of women would be taken away as a result of such changes should well understand what the fear of rights erosion is like, how strong a force such fears are, how they motivate people to leap to the defence of such rights. So they should be able to understand how I felt when worrying about different rights being eroded.

Other upsetting aspects include seeing that u75 tolerated things which drove away valued members of the community. And having grown up at a time where many other battles against ignorance and bigotry had already had many mainstream victories and were reasonably well understood and baked into various norms, values and rules of acceptable conduct in at least some communities, I found it hard to come to terms with an area where this clearly wasnt yet the case. Where so many professed not to even see the problem, or to have no intention of doing anything about it. Again people who are all too aware of the ways that sexism etc manifest on forums and in communities in a slippery and persistent manner will probably be able to relate to that, and I expect there are memories of occasions where abhorrent misogynistic comments were not dealt with by the community in a manner deemed anything close to satisfactory. The ill feeling and sense of betrayal can linger a long time as a result, especially if people feel they were left isolated or fed to the lions, or that a hideous mass of shitty beliefs are bubbling just below the surface of the community. Well its the same with trans stuff, but with added muddying of the waters and even less clarity in the minds of moderators about how to handle it, which often leads to complete inaction.

I could probably list a bunch of other reasons but I want to leave it at that for now. I already indicated a few others in previous posts. And there arent a bunch of deeply personal ones for me to reveal, I dont get upset about these issues because of anything specific to do with me and my family.

 

[teuchter]

I think most people find this line of argument - that trans women should be admitted because of the harm they're likely to suffer otherwise - much more persuasive than the idea that they should be admitted because 'trans women are women'.

That line of argument suggests that others particularly likely to be subject to harm carried out by men should also be admitted. That could include gay or bisexual men, and it could also include any man who might be percieved to be gay, bisexual, or transgender regardless of how they themselves identify. There might even be situations where it would be justified to include men in certain racial/ethnic minorities.

So don't you end up with the same basic problem of disagreements about how and where the line should be drawn between those who do and don't get access?

 

[Edie]

But you wouldn’t think it was a phobia because your fear (or mistrust, I don’t think the distinction really matters) is proportionate, in your opinion. It is also perfectly normal for people to have a generalised ‘fear’ of another group but to have no issues with individuals from said group. Boris Johnson appoints quite a few people of colour to his cabinet but it doesn’t stop him from being a racist shit.

I do think my mistrust of men is proportionate, yes.

I also don’t believe men become women because they feel like women or identify as a woman. I think being a woman is a complex interaction between genetics, physiology, society and social relations, not something you can identify into or out of.

I find your response to IC3D concerns about sending his little girl into a Ladies loo if there might be a man in there telling. I just think you deliberately aren’t prepared to acknowledge concerns about male sexual violence towards girls and women. In fact you are goading him. I wonder why? What’s in that for you?

That's why I'm genuinely interested why Edie cautiously welcomed trans people into toilets and changing rooms three years ago but now it's a hard line. Fear of male violence (and suppressed rage at women's oppression) has been activated many times historically against minorities, it's what the Dworkin quote I posted earlier in the thread speaks to, so I don't think it's really legitimate to suggest that the gender critical movement is motivated solely by the fear of men and transphobia plays no part. That very understandable, and sadly all too justified fear can be used as a shield to avoid examining other possible factors at play and gender critical feminism provides a perfect intellectual framework to justify latent prejudices without ever having to admit to yourself that you might be being a bigot.

You are right I’ve become more hard line about it, and I’ve been reflecting on why. I think part of it is it’s so infuriating to have your concerns dismissed by ‘allies’ (its always allies, often men). It’s like, if you won’t even acknowledge this as a problem and want to steam-roller over it repeating twaw then fuck you. I’ll just defend our spaces.

What Cloo and Athos are saying is true, that if you look at the common denominator it’s the same- fear of male violence. But it doesn’t seem enough to support trans rights to safe access to services. What’s your view? Do you support risk assessment, separate accommodation in hospitals and prisons, and gender neutral toilets and changing rooms? Or do you think it’s twaw and anything less than full access to womens spaces is transphobia?

I’ll read the book Orang Utan and kabbes suggested.

 

[Athos]

That line of argument suggests that others particularly likely to be subject to harm carried out by men should also be admitted. That could include gay or bisexual men, and it could also include any man who might be percieved to be gay, bisexual, or transgender regardless of how they themselves identify. There might even be situations where it would be justified to include men in certain racial/ethnic minorities.

So don't you end up with the same basic problem of disagreements about how and where the line should be drawn between those who do and don't get access?

Not really, for two reasons. First, there's already a near universal consensus amongst women that men - even when victims of male violence - ought not to be admitted to women's refuges; there isn't that consensus regarding trans women. Secondly, there are facilities provided specially for men in circumstances where there aren't for trans women.

 

[l'Otters]

I do think my mistrust of men is proportionate, yes.

I also don’t believe men become women because they feel like women or identify as a woman. I think being a woman is a complex interaction between genetics, physiology, society and social relations, not something you can identify into or out of.

I find your response to IC3D concerns about sending his little girl into a Ladies loo if there might be a man in there telling. I just think you deliberately aren’t prepared to acknowledge concerns about male sexual violence towards girls and women. In fact you are goading him. I wonder why? What’s in that for you?


You are right I’ve become more hard line about it, and I’ve been reflecting on why. I think part of it is it’s so infuriating to have your concerns dismissed by ‘allies’ (its always allies, often men). It’s like, if you won’t even acknowledge this as a problem and want to steam-roller over it repeating twaw then fuck you. I’ll just defend our spaces.

What Cloo and Athos are saying is true, that if you look at the common denominator it’s the same- fear of male violence. But it doesn’t seem enough to support trans rights to safe access to services. What’s your view? Do you support risk assessment, separate accommodation in hospitals and prisons, and gender neutral toilets and changing rooms? Or do you think it’s twaw and anything less than full access to womens spaces is transphobia?

I’ll read the book Orang Utan and kabbes suggested.

Am I wrong in assuming IC3D is a bloke?
(If they’re not, why can’t they go into the women’s loos with their daughter?)

I thought mens feelings were irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[kabbes]

I try to stay out of the trans discussions because who needs another male voice on this?

Since the discussion has temporarily turned to the question of how people become radicalised and divided, however, I would like to make an observation. My “uh-oh” moment, when I could see that a massive culture war on this was coming (rather than it just being something played out in various niches) was when a transwoman (sorry, the name escapes me) became Womens’ Officer at Goldsmiths university and took it as an immediate priority to redefine membership to legislate a belief in “trans women are women” as inherent to being a woman and thus part of who the Womens’ Officer was representing. That was one of the early moments that cis women who had previously largely been oblivious to the arguments started asking, “who the fuck are you to tell me if I’m a woman?” Maybe it’s just my perception, but that seemed to represent the spearhead of a whole new phase of rather nastier rhetoric that divided two sides that should have had much to unify them.

 

[belboid]

I do think my mistrust of men is proportionate, yes.

I also don’t believe men become women because they feel like women or identify as a woman. I think being a woman is a complex interaction between genetics, physiology, society and social relations, not something you can identify into or out of.

I find your response to IC3D concerns about sending his little girl into a Ladies loo if there might be a man in there telling. I just think you deliberately aren’t prepared to acknowledge concerns about male sexual violence towards girls and women. In fact you are goading him. I wonder why? What’s in that for you?

My questions concerned how that, perfectly understandable, fear would manifest itself in practise. Because how things operate in the actual world is what matters. It isn’t an attempt to goad, it is an attempt to tease out the issues and possible contradictions within thought.

 

[Athos]

... to redefine membership to legislate a belief in “trans women are women” as inherent to being a woman and thus part of who the Womens’ Officer was representing.

Sorry, are you saying that that she attempted to make a belief that trans women are women a necessary (though presumably not sufficient) condition of womanhood i.e. that females who don't belive 'twaw' aren't women?

 

[Edie]

My questions concerned how that, perfectly understandable, fear would manifest itself in practise. Because how things operate in the actual world is what matters. It isn’t an attempt to goad, it is an attempt to tease out the issues and possible contradictions within thought.

It was weird

 

[hitmouse]

The second reason it seems stupid to throw those terms round is it polarises and excludes vast numbers of ordinary women with concerns. What’s the point of that unless your just interested in virtue signalling like ginger_syn . This is why ‘allies’ (urgh) are so keen to prove themselves by trying to start fights and make the situation worse. Best ignored.

I think if you're trying to avoid polarising and excluding people, and you want people to treat your posts as being made in good faith instead of projecting motivations onto you, it's probably good to treat other people as posting in good faith and not project motivations onto them.

 

[Edie]

Am I wrong in assuming IC3D is a bloke?
(If they’re not, why can’t they go into the women’s loos with their daughter?)

I thought mens feelings were irrelevant to this discussion.

Maybe I’ve been inconsistent with that. I said it when I was angry tbf.

 

[Edie]

I think if you're trying to avoid polarising and excluding people, and you want people to treat your posts as being made in good faith instead of projecting motivations onto you, it's probably good to treat other people as posting in good faith and not project motivations onto them.

I don’t think ginger_syn is posting in good faith I think she enjoys shit stirring. Altho tbf sometimes I say shit just for the rise too.

Like the comment about the left eating itself. I do think this kind of identity politics have been- and is - incredibly damaging to the left. Why is the focus on identity (twaw) rather than on community (fighting for adequate services for all)? But I did throw that last line in for the hell of it.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

If a big chunk of the debate in some quarters has stagnated on that these days, I think its only fair to mention what much of the heated debate was actually about leading up to that point.

There were proposed changes in regards self-identification and official gender recognition. There were some concerns. Some people used those concerns as an opportunity to gain ideological traction, sometimes in the service of specific versions of feminism that had previously been lacking momentum in the current era. Its important to note that I say some people, not all the people who had such concerns. Those who were doing it because they could make it fit a very specific feminist ideology were not going to be interested in turning it into a discussion about shared interests, they cant weaponise the concerns if that happens, and indeed they tended to resort to especially extreme language and accusations when other people tried to take it in that direction.

To somewhat answer Edies question to me about why I get so upset, the above is one of the big reasons in the last 5 years here for me. It was pretty blatant at the time but of course there were also legitimate areas of concern in some of the stuff that came up as a result, and emotive aspects made it hard to unpick the fair from the cynical misuse of the fair, a massive polarisation multiplier had been unleashed.

Let me be more specific about that - I was especially alarmed that during the course of discussions about proposed changes regarding self-identification, it became apparent that some people didnt understand the trans rights that were already enshrined in law. They sometimes said things which suggested they were not just alarmed by proposed expansion to those rights or the practical application of them, but that they also didnt believe some of the existing rights and rules should be in place. And when I asked them about this directly, I almost never got a reply. That silence was more than uncomfortable, and rightly or wrongly I drew certain conclusions as a result. People who fear some rights of women would be taken away as a result of such changes should well understand what the fear of rights erosion is like, how strong a force such fears are, how they motivate people to leap to the defence of such rights. So they should be able to understand how I felt when worrying about different rights being eroded.

Other upsetting aspects include seeing that u75 tolerated things which drove away valued members of the community. And having grown up at a time where many other battles against ignorance and bigotry had already had many mainstream victories and were reasonably well understood and baked into various norms, values and rules of acceptable conduct in at least some communities, I found it hard to come to terms with an area where this clearly wasnt yet the case. Where so many professed not to even see the problem, or to have no intention of doing anything about it. Again people who are all too aware of the ways that sexism etc manifest on forums and in communities in a slippery and persistent manner will probably be able to relate to that, and I expect there are memories of occasions where abhorrent misogynistic comments were not dealt with by the community in a manner deemed anything close to satisfactory. The ill feeling and sense of betrayal can linger a long time as a result, especially if people feel they were left isolated or fed to the lions, or that a hideous mass of shitty beliefs are bubbling just below the surface of the community. Well its the same with trans stuff, but with added muddying of the waters and even less clarity in the minds of moderators about how to handle it, which often leads to complete inaction.

I could probably list a bunch of other reasons but I want to leave it at that for now. I already indicated a few others in previous posts. And there arent a bunch of deeply personal ones for me to reveal, I dont get upset about these issues because of anything specific to do with me and my family.

I was in a right state when I was reading Dylans' posts the other night, tears the lot. Then seeing hardly anyone challenge it but the usual tiny few, then seeing likes on the posts. I think this was the angriest and upset I've ever been reading stuff on here. The last time I was in a similar state it was watching "Help" ... now that was more like watching me on the telly , but the strength of feeling was the same- or not far off.
I typed out several posts, and deleted them. I was too angry. Since then I've made comments on that that seem flippant maybe...I feel like if I try and inject humour or something it might help get my point across.
I admire that you don't make any attempt to hide how upset you are about reading this stuff. I don't find it so easy, if I type something that is as open as you often are I often find myself deleting it. If I did it drunk the night before, it is deleted the next day.
You've been asked a number of times why you get so upset (I recall this happening the first time around too) and I always found that quite bizarre. Like yourself, there are certain things that I just almost lose my mind over. To think of examples- Hillsborough and the ongoing treatment of victims families, Syrians constantly being told they are bullshitting about the regime over there.... I'm not a football fan, I'm not from Liverpool, I'm not Syrian. So I'm a Knight riding in on a horse? Or signalling virtue to get likes on social media? If so, I'm doing a very good job of hiding such shallowness from myself at least. I've got a tension headache after reading some of this stuff last few days.

There is an obvious thing we all have in common though- it's power. The lack of it, in different ways and in very different situations. Seeing someone wield theirs carelessly over another. If I could pinpoint what it is that gets me in such a state about stuff that I don't have absolute direct personal experience of, it is probably that.

Jesus if I press send on this I'll end up spewing with the adrenaline aaaah

 

[Shechemite]

I try to stay out of the trans discussions because who needs another male voice on this?

Since the discussion has temporarily turned to the question of how people become radicalised and divided, however, I would like to make an observation. My “uh-oh” moment, when I could see that a massive culture war on this was coming (rather than it just being something played out in various niches) was when a transwoman (sorry, the name escapes me) became Womens’ Officer at Goldsmiths university and took it as an immediate priority to redefine membership to legislate a belief in “trans women are women” as inherent to being a woman and thus part of who the Womens’ Officer was representing. That was one of the early moments that cis women who had previously largely been oblivious to the arguments started asking, “who the fuck are you to tell me if I’m a woman?” Maybe it’s just my perception, but that seemed to represent the spearhead of a whole new phase of rather nastier rhetoric that divided two sides that should have had much to unify them.

I think the Hyde park ‘she wolf’ attack catalysed a lot as well

 

[Edie]

I was in a right state when I was reading Dylans' posts the other night, tears the lot. Then seeing hardly anyone challenge it but the usual tiny few, then seeing likes on the posts. I think this was the angriest and upset I've ever been reading stuff on here. The last time I was in a similar state it was watching "Help" ... now that was more like watching me on the telly , but the strength of feeling was the same- or not far off.
I typed out several posts, and deleted them. I was too angry. Since then I've made comments on that that seem flippant maybe...I feel like if I try and inject humour or something it might help get my point across.
I admire that you don't make any attempt to hide how upset you are about reading this stuff. I don't find it so easy, if I type something that is as open as you often are I often find myself deleting it. If I did it drunk the night before, it is deleted the next day.
You've been asked a number of times why you get so upset (I recall this happening the first time around too) and I always found that quite bizarre. Like yourself, there are certain things that I just almost lose my mind over. To think of examples- Hillsborough and the ongoing treatment of victims families, Syrians constantly being told they are bullshitting about the regime over there.... I'm not a football fan, I'm not from Liverpool, I'm not Syrian. So I'm a Knight riding in on a horse? Or signalling virtue to get likes on social media? If so, I'm doing a very good job of hiding such shallowness from myself at least. I've got a tension headache after reading some of this stuff last few days.

There is an obvious thing we all have in common though- it's power. The lack of it, in different ways and in very different situations. Seeing someone wield theirs carelessly over another. If I could pinpoint what it is that gets me in such a state about stuff that I don't have absolute direct personal experience of, it is probably that.

Jesus if I press send on this I'll end up spewing with the adrenaline aaaah

Sorry but you need to get a grip on yourself. Proper snowflake stuff this.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Snowflake, virtue signalling. Keep going!

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Some of us have a very straightforward approach to life. We say what we mean. sometimes we keep quiet, out of caution for the consequences. So if we say that we aren't transphobic we are being genuine. That doesn't mean that our every subconscious thought has been verified by the pc police, or that our every statement can't be misinterpreted or interpreted in unintended ways. This 'debate' has been kicking around for ages. Most of us have heard most of the arguments both ways, or think we have. On urban but also elsewhere. Actions outside have a huge bearing on all of this.

I think the Hyde park ‘she wolf’ attack catalysed a lot as well

And the London Anarchist Book Fair.

 

[kabbes]

Sorry, are you saying that that she attempted to make a belief that trans women are women a necessary (though presumably not sufficient) condition of womanhood i.e. that females who don't belive 'twaw' aren't women?

My memory of it, which was years ago now so apologies if it’s not completely accurate, is that in an attempt to enshrine “twaw” as necessary doctrine, she defined “women” in a way that left a lot of women on these boards feeling that they were excluded from the definition.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I think a lot of people are reluctant or scared to post on this subject. I am. I get fed up with deliberate misinterpretations and goadings, or so it seems to me. By the time I work up the courage to post something I'm already more annoyed than I should be, even when I'm trying to be all calm and collected. Yet sometimes I feel I have to because of the inaccurate and intemperate accusations flying around. I get particularly annoyed at left wing feminists being portrayed as being in league with incels, the far right or religious extremists

 

[elbows]

I get particularly annoyed at left wing feminists being portrayed as being in league with incels, the far right or religious extremists

Well why dont you try listening properly to the left wing feminists that understand all too well, and oppose, the highly specific branch of feminism that people like me are actually referring to. Its very specific indeed.

 

[hitmouse]

Snowflake, virtue signalling. Keep going!

Women's concerns and fears need to be taken seriously and listened to, they shouldn't be dismissed. Except for the virtue-signalling snowflake ones of course, they just need to get a grip.

 

[maomao]

I think a lot of people are reluctant or scared to post on this subject. I am. I get fed up with deliberate misinterpretations and goadings, or so it seems to me.

Why? I share opinions with people on both sides of the debate but none of them are important enough to me to upset people further over.