Is this woman a transphobe?

[ginger_syn]

The first point I understand. It imposes on disabled people for more people to be utilising those services. I get you.

But your second point seems to imply there is something wrong with being disabled, as if trans people are being insulted by having to share facilities with them. I known that's not what you intened, but it feels a bit like that.

Perhaps its more a trans person would feel uncomfortable using the disabled toilets the same way any reasonable abled bodied person would, i know I feel uncomfortable using disabled toilets while i can still manage to get into a standard cubicle, even though I have issues with mobility.

 

[elbows]

‘I am who I say I am’ is a total load of bullshit anyway. Individualist nonsense. We are all defined by many many things, most completely beyond our control, and almost never ‘because we say so’. Utter tripe. The end point of this identity fantasy. Ironic that the left are destroying society and community far quicker than the right ever did. Your fucking eating yourselves.

Well you would say that because your right-leaning instincts and ignorance makes you just the sort of tool that gets weaponised in the 'culture wars'.

For over two years I kept out of this topic, in large part because I found it almost impossible not to have a go at you and your transphobia. But it seems real hard for me to keep quiet at the moment when faced with you wanting to have your cake and eat it via bullshit claims that you will defend trans peoples rights. With rights defenders like you who needs enemies? The only thing you end up defending is your right to lean to the right.

 

[Sue]

Well you would say that because your right-leaning instincts and ignorance makes you just the sort of tool that gets weaponised in the 'culture wars'.

For over two years I kept out of this topic, in large part because I found it almost impossible not to have a go at you and your transphobia. But it seems real hard for me to keep quiet at the moment when faced with you wanting to have your cake and eat it via bullshit claims that you will defend trans peoples rights. With rights defenders like you who needs enemies? The only thing you end up defending is your right to lean to the right.

I'm not sure how helpful this is, elbows. Edie has explained on here the physical and sexual violence she's experienced at the hands of men and why she's worried about the potential consequences of self-identification as they affect refuges etc.

Whether those fears are justified in this context or not, I have no idea but those fears certainly exist for quite a lot of women (and I'm guessing those who've experienced that violence in the past are the most worried about it). Back to the skin in the game thing, eh?

Eta If you're trans fair enough. But keeping in mind how scared some women genuinely are is probably a good idea whatever.

 

[smokedout]

It always seems to come down to 'trans women are women'- for a lot of people, saying anything less is transphobia, but for others the implication that a trans woman must be treated exactly the same as all other women clashes in some scenarios with women's rights. The nearest thing we have to a compromise is 'trans women are women [except in a couple of very specific situations]' but then I can see that undermines the concept of trans women being women. What I don't know is how most trans women feel about this - it's not clear to me whether all/most trans women find that caveats utterly upend any possibility of them being accepted as women and must be fought at every turn, or if many might see it as understandable. Because a lot of the time it seems to be 'allies' rather than trans women themselves making the most noise about this, certainly in terms of attacking anyone who suggests such things.

There was a daft thread on trans twitter recently asking what would you do if there were no cis people in the world for a day. It attracted a lot of responses, probably over 100, and nearly every single one was go swimming (God know why, I've always hated going swimming). Lots of trans people won't use public toilets and plan any kind of outing around knowing they won't be able to go to the loo. This is in part because people are scared, or have had bad experiences in the past but also because most trans people don't actually want to make people feel uncomfortable, they just want to use the toilet or try on some clothes and get out of there as soon as possible. And whether trans people do use single sex spaces generally comes down to how well they 'pass', as in do they meet the standards of masculinity or femininity that makes them acceptable to cis people.

There are certainly a few younger trans people (and no doubt older) who've decided fuck that, but for the vast majority it's all about a bit of common sense. I've seen very few trans people object to the hormone requirements in professional sports for example, I doubt there's many trans people pre-surgery who would use a space which involved communal nudity, and there's not many of them in the UK anyway, I'm certainly not aware of any reports of that happening here. I think there's a growing sense at least amongst more radical trans people that throwing everything behind trans women are women was probably not a great strategy that just trapped us in endless semantic arguments when we should have been talking about trans liberation - that is access to housing, places of safety, employment and most importantly of all an adequate trans healthcare system. In other words the things that trans people need to be able to both function and thrive within society on the same terms as everyone else. The gender criticals are just one of many obstacles to trans lives, the appalling state of healthcare for trans people, discrimination in housing and employment, male sexual and physical violence, are all arguably far greater barriers to trans participation than the gender critical movement - although all these problems would become significantly worse were the gender criticals to achieve their aims.

Trans people don't want this row. Unlike the mumsnetters and glinners of the world we are not approaching this with obsessive glee. A significant number of trans people are making plans to leave the country. It's founded on a completely dishonest premise that self ID, which is off the table anyway and few trans peple gave that much of a shit about, was about access to single sex spaces and that this was something new and dangerous when in reality it really just was just about being able to change your birth certificate. Trans people have been using single sex spaces for decades, on a self ID basis, with a bit of common sense and without incident, and are now being told no, that's not true, trans people must be imagining what toilets they've used for most of their life and this thing that has always happened is suddenly intolerably dangerous. That's a pretty shit and offensive position to take, and whilst I don't like the way the term gaslighting is now commonly used it's the perfect example of what it has come to mean. And this probably has polarised some trans people, it's made a lot of people angry and understandably afraid, but what I have noticed is that as trans people have moved closer to compromise the gender critical demands have grown ever more extreme because many of them will now not be happy until trans people cease to exist at least as a visible social phenomena.

 

[8ball]

Perhaps its more a trans person would feel uncomfortable using the disabled toilets the same way any reasonable abled bodied person would, i know I feel uncomfortable using disabled toilets while i can still manage to get into a standard cubicle, even though I have issues with mobility.

I think also it can maybe feel like the "mainstream world" saying "we've already shelled out a load of cash for some people who don't fit our categories, so let's get the max bang for our buck", rather than wanting to spend too much time mulling things over.

This is how they changed our disabled loo's sign at work recently. I can see the sentiment, but most of "everyone" already has a whole bunch of loos they can use right next to this one, so I'd sooner it was a bit different esp. the bottom line.



edit: but mostly, great post smokedout

 

[Raheem]

from a practical point of view, bar converting all toilets to single-use facilities, how else does this circle get squared? No agreement is possible it seems between the two opposite opnions so re-labeling disabled toilets as single-use gender-neutral toilets seems fairly straight forward.

It's worth taking a step backwards and noticing that the rights of trans people, at a basic level, to things like public toilets, changing rooms and women's refuges are not actually a subject of live public debate. The law is settled, most of the public support it, it's nearly always complied with and it is has, on it's own terms, worked just fine. There are not two equally valid opposing viewpoints needing to be reconciled, and no square to be circled. A very large part of the discussion here is just about disapproving of the modern world or not.

 

[Cloo]

Thanks smokedout - this is why I don't have a problem with trans women in changing rooms as I'm sure most wouldn't feel comfortable using open changing anyway. And I've never got the loos thing, as they are all cubicles and that's sufficiently private as far as I'm concerned. And the result of all this crap is that trans women and cis women who happen to be tall/look a bit androgynous are now getting shit in these spaces as well.

People are very keen on 'nutpicking' and finding the odd extreme outliers on either side to try to prove their points, but as trans friends have said, they are just trying to live their lives, not everything they do is a political statement.

 

[elbows]

I'm not sure how helpful this is, elbows. Edie has explained on here the physical and sexual violence she's experienced at the hands of men and why she's worried about the potential consequences of self-identification as they affect refuges etc.

Whether those fears are justified in this context or not, I have no idea but those fears certainly exist for quite a lot of women (and I'm guessing those who've experienced that violence in the past are the most worried about it). Back to the skin in the game thing, eh?

Those aspects are real enough but when people make references to the culture wars and make clear which side of that they are on, it seems weird to ignore it. Especially when it emerges in the form of claims such as 'the left are destroying society', why would we ever expect such claims to go unchallenged on u75?

Because lets face it, a significant chunk of what has poisoned the well in regards these issues in recent years is the framing of many aspects of social change and resistance to that change as being a culture war. It is a trap that all sides can easily find themselves in, including me. In some ways its just a modern reboot of earlier decades attempts by the right to characterise their opponents as 'the loony left'. But its also been fuelled by identity politics and certain extremes and dead ends that result.

Possibly a solution is to utterly reject the entire framing of things as being 'a culture war'. Because the right are having a great time framing everything in that way, and the left easily get sucked in.

How that shit can be bypassed on u75 and everywhere else is a challenge we clearly havent found the answers too yet. It seems unlikely that I have magic answers, and so I will still try to heavily limit my input on threads like this one. I would be very happy if others can come up with a cunning plan on this front.

 

[Sue]

Those aspects are real enough but when people make references to the culture wars and make clear which side of that they are on, it seems weird to ignore it.

Because lets face it, a significant chunk of what has poisoned the well in regards these issues in recent years is the framing of many aspects of social change and resistance to that change as being a culture war. It is a trap that all sides can easily find themselves in, including me. In some ways its just a modern reboot of earlier decades attempts by the right to characterise their opponents as 'the loony left'. But its also been fuelled by identity politics and certain extremes and dead ends that result.

Possibly a solution is to utterly reject the entire framing of things as being 'a culture war'. Because the right are having a great time framing everything in that way, and the left easily get sucked in.

How that shit can be bypassed on u75 and everywhere else is a challenge we clearly havent found the answers too yet. It seems unlikely that I have magic answers, and so I will still try to heavily limit my input on threads like this one. I would be very happy if others can come up with a cunning plan on this front.

Sure so let's not use the term 'culture war". Tbh I don't think it's a term I've ever used as its meaning is so unclear/imprecise.

 

[smokedout]

‘I am who I say I am’ is a total load of bullshit anyway. Individualist nonsense. We are all defined by many many things, most completely beyond our control, and almost never ‘because we say so’. Utter tripe. The end point of this identity fantasy. Ironic that the left are destroying society and community far quicker than the right ever did. Your fucking eating yourselves.

Are you going to answer my question Edie

I ask because on the earlier thread about this you said

I have absolutely no doubt that the majority of trans women are men who genuinely feel like women. Who would benefit psychologically and socially from living being accepted as a woman. And there are intersex people who are chromosomally or phenotypically more female than male, and in my view they quite simply are women.
And these people have rights and needs that absolutely need to be met. They deserve to live with dignity, and without violence. And if that means treating them as women socially then that is what I would do. Share my swimming pool changing room, come into the female toilets. Just come in with some mindfulness that some women might be afraid, and that you still have many of the sex based privileges that men have always had.

So I'm wondering what's changed and why this is now a hard line. Has something happened to you in a changing room or toilet concerning a trans person that has made you change your mind? Obviously you don't have to tell me, and that's understandable if it was something traumatic but I am genuinely curious why something that didn't seem to be a problem for you a couple of years ago is an now absolutely intolerable danger.

 

[elbows]

Sure so let's not use the term 'culture war". Tbh I don't think it's a term I've ever used as its meaning is so unclear/imprecise.

Its true that I usually avoid the term myself, but there seem to be occasions where I need to point out when angles are very much a part of that framing. I added a bit to my post to make it clear that my post was sponsored by Edies comments about how the left were destroying society faster than the right, which is classic culture war shite in my book.

 

[Edie]

Well you would say that because your right-leaning instincts and ignorance makes you just the sort of tool that gets weaponised in the 'culture wars'.

For over two years I kept out of this topic, in large part because I found it almost impossible not to have a go at you and your transphobia. But it seems real hard for me to keep quiet at the moment when faced with you wanting to have your cake and eat it via bullshit claims that you will defend trans peoples rights. With rights defenders like you who needs enemies? The only thing you end up defending is your right to lean to the right.

You’ve said literally nothing with this post except some vague hand waving about how you don’t like me. I don’t give a fuck.

Name something I’ve said that’s trans phobic and actually construct an argument instead of this grandstanding.

 

[elbows]

But you always try to boil my criticisms down to the idea that Im just saying I dont like you, and that really isnt the case.

You brought up the right and the left, you claimed the left were destroying society faster than the right. Given the subject of this thread, it seems you are suggesting that certain positions being taken by some on the left in terms of trans rights are one of their destructive forces. If that is not your claim, why are you saying it on this thread?

 

[LDC]

I think (and I'm happy to be shot down in flames with better arguments and corrections) that there's stuff going on with this debate that's to do with online radicalisation, as has been discussed in other contexts.

In the last 3-4 years I've seen a few people I know go from having genuine questions and concerns to being told they're akin to fascists and then joining Twitter (and similar) and increasingly plunging into a world of hate, horrendous behaviour, and horrible shit said to each other online. And I think it for sure works both ways (and smokedout has hinted as such I think) but my own experience of it has been seeing anarchist and left wing women see things like that placard at a demo that was posted earlier, be subject to violent and misogynist threats online from (assuming) young trans people and/or their allies, and feel (and sometimes are) attacked and excluded from spaces they've been comfortable in for sometimes decades by people they thought were comrades. And some are now keeping any feelings or questions on this issue to themselves or a few trusted friends lest they be attacked and excluded as well.

Probably one of my most depressing political moments ever was watching a young huge 6ft transwoman scream "You ugly TERF cunt." right in the face of a small feminist probably in her 60s a few years ago. I mean how is it even possible to move on with this when there are small circles of people behaving and treating each other like that online and sometimes in person?

TL;DR, blow up the internet and be nice to each other please.

 

[bimble]

I think there's a growing sense at least amongst more radical trans people that throwing everything behind trans women are women was probably not a great strategy that just trapped us in endless semantic arguments when we should have been talking about trans liberation - that is access to housing, places of safety, employment and most importantly of all an adequate trans healthcare system. In other words the things that trans people need to be able to both function and thrive within society on the same terms as everyone else.

That is really interesting & makes sense.

 

[Riklet]

A lot of this comes down to trust. Most women don't trust men some/all of the time. With good reason. Not because all men are likely to be violent towards women, but because some are and there's no easy way of telling. So when you see placards saying "I am who I say I am" this rings alarm bells. Because people lie, make mistakes, change their minds, have delusions, misunderstand, hallucinate, are uncertain, pretend.

Eddie Izzard springs to mind. He's atypical, but nonetheless a good example. I used to find him very funny, inventive and brave. Years ago he started wearing makeup, but still publicly talked about having sex with lots of women. Fair enough. Now he says he's female but a lesbian, still retaining all his tackle, mind you. I know he's a self publicist and all that, but should we take him at his word, start calling him 'she', accept that he's a lesbian? If so, why? Because he says so.

Is that really good enough?

It is a good example.

Eddie Izzard isn't for me a woman in the same way as someone born as a woman and raised as a woman is. No matter what they say or do. I'm sure this is hideously offensive and un PC but that's just how I feel. I totally empathise with women who are a bit unsure about unquestioning acceptance and even praise of self identification.

What I'm not clear on is where kindness fits in. Id like to think id always try and treat people with kindness and vulnerable people even more so. I don't see this happening with the whole trans debate or gender critical feminist behaviour and arguments. I see more selfishness and "defending our tribe" than reaching out and trying your best even in difficult and confusing situations. I'd like to think that people's instinctive views about someone's biology arent as important as how we engage towards others and learn from their experiences. Aren't as important as behaviour, basically. The hope is to reconcile thoughts and feelings with behaviour... I definitely try to anyway.

Getting drawn into the whole "do women have a cervix or not" rubbish just makes it harder to achieve this IMO.

 

[teuchter]

But you always try to boil my criticisms down to the idea that Im just saying I dont like you, and that really isnt the case.

You brought up the right and the left, you claimed the left were destroying society faster than the right. Given the subject of this thread, it seems you are suggesting that certain positions being taken by some on the left in terms of trans rights are one of their destructive forces. If that is not your claim, why are you saying it on this thread?

I have not seen Edie post anything that I would call transphobic. I think if you are going to accuse her of that you have to back it up.

 

[elbows]

I think (and I'm happy to be shot down in flames with better arguments and corrections) that there's stuff going on with this debate that's to do with online radicalisation, as has been discussed in other contexts.

In the last 3-4 years I've seen a few people I know go from having genuine questions and concerns to being told they're akin to fascists and then joining Twitter (and similar) and increasingly plunging into a world of hate, horrendous behaviour, and horrible shit said to each other online. And I think it for sure works both ways (and smokedout has hinted as such I think) but my own experience of it has been seeing anarchist and left wing women see things like that placard at a demo that was posted earlier, be subject to violent and misogynist threats online from (assuming) young trans people and/or their allies, and feel (and sometimes are) attacked and excluded from spaces they've been comfortable in for sometimes decades by people they thought were comrades. And some are now keeping any feelings or questions on this issue to themselves or a few trusted friends lest they be attacked and excluded as well.

Probably one of my most depressing political moments ever was watching a young huge 6ft transwoman scream "You ugly TERF cunt." right in the face of a small feminist probably in her 60s a few years ago. I mean how is it even possible to move on with this when there are small circles of people behaving and treating each other like that online and sometimes in person?

Massive attention towards such aspects on both sides was certainly a feature of the worst/most intense threads on trans issues some years back on u75.

Its one of the more overt signs of polarisation, and even when we try to bring it up and discuss it sensibly the polarisation ends up manifesting itself in such discussions. People often feel the need to bring up examples of the same sort of stuff from the other side, especially when graphic examples from a particular poster only cover one side. For example even as I type this reply, I feel the need to mention how during the same period, when I made the mistake of paying attention to vidoes of various demos, some on the trans-exclusionary side of one demo confrontation were saying things like 'theres the bulge'. And then the polarisation here becomes cemented when people get upset with perceived failures of people on the other side to properly condemn stuff that should be easy to condemn. Even if lots of people do the right thing and make sensible concessions, it only takes a few to keep the fully polarised shit going as if there had been no attempts by anyone at bridging the divide and taking the worst heat out of the equation.

Plus some will question the extent to which concessions and depolarisation should actually be attempted, especially if they hark back to previous struggles such as those against racism, where the goal seemed achievable by picking a side and sticking to our guns. Nuances were deemed unnecessary on some fronts of some of those struggles, but I'm not sure that works so well when the issues are more complex and people can find a range of reasonable-sounding justifications to hide their bigotry behind.

 

[elbows]

I have not seen Edie post anything that I would call transphobic. I think if you are going to accuse her of that you have to back it up.

The problem is that my opinion on that is based on a lots of posts over many years, and if I attempt to go through all that history and forensically pick it apart then I will be accused of having some weird obsession. Thats part of what happened last time that lead me to ban myself from the topic for several years. As opposed to the reality that its just an opinion that was formed slowly over a long period of time in the past by reading and engaging with threads in a normal way. An opinion that gets an instant refresh whenever fresh material comes up now. A phenomenon that many people experience in regards various other u75 posters that they have known and argued with about particular topics over many years.

But I will now make reference to one phenomenon from recent days in this thread. It will not offer anything close to water tight evidence, but it will hopefully provide some indication of where I am coming from.

If I made a post where I claimed I support trans rights, but everything else I said in that post and in other posts undermined those rights and made it clear how much lower a priority I considered those rights to be compared to a load of other stuff, I would expect to be called out for it. It ends up being very similar to 'im not a racist but but but' and its always driven me completely mad that when it comes to transphobia, many people dont recognise the parallels.

 

[Edie]

The problem is that my opinion on that is based on a lots of posts over many years, and if I attempt to go through all that history and forensically pick it apart then I will be accused of having some weird obsession. As opposed to the reality that its just an opinion that was formed slowly over a long period of time in the past by reading and engaging with threads in a normal way. An opinion that gets an instant refresh whenever fresh material comes up now. A phenomenon that many people experience in regards various other u7 posters that they have known and argued with about particular topics over many years.

But I will now make reference to one phenomenon from recent days in this thread. It will not offer anything close to water tight evidence, but it will hopefully provide some indication of where I am coming from.

If I made a post where I claimed I support trans rights, but everything else I said in that post and in other posts undermined those rights and made it clear how much lower a priority those rights were than a load of other stuff, I would expect to be called out for it.

Mealy mouthed bullshit.

 

[Sue]

I see more selfishness and "defending our tribe" than reaching out and trying your best even in difficult and confusing situations. I'd like to think that people's instinctive views about someone's biology arent as important as how we engage towards others and learn from their experiences. Aren't as important as behaviour, basically. The hope is to reconcile thoughts and feelings with behaviour...

I think dismissing some women's fears for their safety like this isn't very helpful either.

 

[Riklet]

I think dismissing some women's fears for their safety like this isn't very helpful either.

I hope I havent dismissed that. Thats not what I meant to do. But think theres a big difference between some women's fears for their safety and organised radical feminist groups that seem determined to provoke and attack trans men and the various groups theyre involved with. Sure some of the trans activists have been just as bad perhaps but there's some pretty horrendous bahaviour online especially which doesn't seem much like a genuine discussion or raising of concern.

 

[smokedout]

I think (and I'm happy to be shot down in flames with better arguments and corrections) that there's stuff going on with this debate that's to do with online radicalisation, as has been discussed in other contexts.

In the last 3-4 years I've seen a few people I know go from having genuine questions and concerns to being told they're akin to fascists and then joining Twitter (and similar) and increasingly plunging into a world of hate, horrendous behaviour, and horrible shit said to each other online. And I think it for sure works both ways (and smokedout has hinted as such I think) but my own experience of it has been seeing anarchist and left wing women see things like that placard at a demo that was posted earlier, be subject to violent and misogynist threats online from (assuming) young trans people and/or their allies, and feel (and sometimes are) attacked and excluded from spaces they've been comfortable in for sometimes decades by people they thought were comrades. And some are now keeping any feelings or questions on this issue to themselves or a few trusted friends lest they be attacked and excluded as well.

Probably one of my most depressing political moments ever was watching a young huge 6ft transwoman scream "You ugly TERF cunt." right in the face of a small feminist probably in her 60s a few years ago. I mean how is it even possible to move on with this when there are small circles of people behaving and treating each other like that online and sometimes in person?

TL;DR, blow up the internet and be nice to each other please.

I think it's undeniable that some of the behaviour of usually younger trans activists (and often allies) has been less than helpful and that misogyny, transphobia, and homophobia has played a part on all sides - the way Glinner treated women who disagreed with him on twitter was equally problematic. And these are powerful social forces which few movements if any are immune from.

But there is another dynamic within this which probably a lot of people weren't aware of. The original terfs, who were mostly US based although not exclusively, had been waging war on trans people for decades. Blogs like twansphobic were outing trans people and mocking them - ordinary trans people not activists - for years before this row broke out. In the 70s' lesbian feminist group The Gorgans turned up with guns in an attempt to intimidate a trans women and more than one person was physically attacked. In the UK, the lesbian sex wars as they became known sought to expel trans people from the growing LGB movement. People like Cathy Brennan and Janice Raymond played an active role in attempting to suppress trans healthcare in the US, with some success. The reason trans activists started wearing masks was because they were frequently outed by rad fem blogs (as they called themselves back then) and humiliated online. In this context the idea to host Julia Long as the main speaker at the Hyde Park event which really sparked this conflict on the left was a massive provocation, a bit like claiming you have reasonable concerns about immigration then booking Nick Griffen to be your main speaker. Long is one of the most notorous transphobic rad fems in the UK and has been equally hostile to sex workers - as have many others within her orbit. This very small tradition within radical feminism is openly trans eliminist, proud of it in fact, and has caused real harm to trans people over the years.

This is where the the initial resistance to terfs came from. The problem is a lot of people walked right into the middle of that, with what probably were genuinely reasonable concerns or questions, and had likely never even heard of Julia Long and Sheila Jeffreys and the rest, but became unwittingly associated with them. The nature of online debate only excerbated these tensions but what sparked it could probably be best described as a fuck up* - in that some people on the left became unknowingly associated with deeply transphobic individuals and others responded to that in a completely over the top way because they assumed that some curious random who went to a meeting was part of the same current as Long, Jeffreys, Brennan etc.

*although if you look back at the meetings being held by Sheila Jeffreys and others around 2013/14 I'd argue it was a loosely planned fuck up. And then the right wing press decided to join in, whilst the far and religious right also jumped on the bandwagon further inflaming tensions.

 

[elbows]

Mealy mouthed bullshit.

I'm open to suggestions if you have any in regards detail and angles you'd like to discuss further.

I'd certainly say the subject gets messy in part because many of us may face some internal contradictions or difficulties in finding the right balance. Do you find yourself struggling with that at all? Do you end up framing things as competing rights and then not have much trouble working out which of those takes priority as far as you are concerned? Have you considered the possibility that a potential solution is not to view things through the prism of competing rights?

 

[teuchter]

If I made a post where I claimed I support trans rights, but everything else I said in that post and in other posts undermined those rights and made it clear how much lower a priority I considered those rights to be compared to a load of other stuff, I would expect to be called out for it. It ends up being very similar to 'im not a racist but but but' and its always driven me completely mad that when it comes to transphobia, many people dont recognise the parallels.

What were the rights that were undermined and how were they undermined?

Also, having an opinion that one thing is more important than another thing, doesn't mean that you consider the other thing to be unimportant.

 

[Sue]

I'm open to suggestions if you have any in regards detail and angles you'd like to discuss further.

I'd certainly say the subject gets messy in part because many of us may face some internal contradictions or difficulties in finding the right balance. Do you find yourself struggling with that at all? Do you end up framing things as competing rights and then not have much trouble working out which of those takes priority as far as you are concerned? Have you considered the possibility that a potential solution is not to view things through the prism of competing rights?

I think unfortunately some of these things may well come down to competing rights, if only due to financial constraints.

So if trans people use the disabled loo if there is one, what about disabled folk wanting to access the toilet? If trans women use the women's loos, what about women who feel unsafe with this? If trans women use the men's loos, trans women would likely feel unsafe with that. And trans folk presumably just want to use a loo without it being a battleground.

Gender-neutral toilets everywhere would sort a lot of this out but they're unlikely to be installed everywhere for financial/space reasons.

So we can say 'everyone should have access to toilets in all public spaces' but the implementation is the problem. (I mean look at all those places without proper disabled loos/access even at this point.)

 

[elbows]

What were the rights that were undermined and how were they undermined?

Also, having an opinion that one thing is more important than another thing, doesn't mean that you consider the other thing to be unimportant.

Rights are undermined when safety issues for different people are prioritised or diminished based on factors such as the absolute number of victims involved. Framing it as a competition comes with built in risks to peoples rights.

One small example, that should really be read in conjunction with a bunch of related posts that I dont intend to catalogue now because I'm sure you are more than capable of re-reading parts of the thread yourself:

#1,800

 

[elbows]

Would any notable gains have been made in struggles for equality and against things like racism if a huge chunk of the discussion involved the repeated focus on particular minority groups being a threat rather than being victims?

Would people be impressed or turn a blind eye if a thread about statistics regarding how many victims of racist attacks there were in a given year was hijacked by people who wanted to talk about how many people who were not white committed different sorts of violent offences? Well thats what happened on u75 with a past thread about trans victims of violence statistics, and it still makes me sick years later.

 

[Reno]

Edit: Ignore

 

[andysays]

I think dismissing some women's fears for their safety like this isn't very helpful either.

Along similar lines to a post I made yesterday, it should possible to criticise the way some individuals express their fears without being accused of dismissing the fears themselves.