Is this woman a transphobe?

[Shechemite]

feels like people should have stopped her transitioning etc.

you’re sorry she feels that way? How very NHS.

Should there be any safeguards against minors having treatment they wish to have?

 

[SpackleFrog]

you’re sorry she feels that way? How very NHS.

Should there be any safeguards against minors having treatment they wish to have?

Yes of course and there are. Whats your point?

 

[bimble]

Yes of course and there are. Whats your point?

Do you think in Bell’s case it was an unusual lapse of normal procedure and so by mistake a not-really-trans person slipped through the net and got treatment they shouldn’t have been given ?

 

[SpackleFrog]

MadeInBedlam did you even read my post?

Someone who is going to take medication should be fully informed of the consequences and give informed consent.

 

[elbows]

how is the difference between dysphoria and specifically dysphoria regarding our sexed bodies and a gendered society? How is this measured? Is my dysphoria (which includes ‘severe unease and discomfort’ with both my body and gendered society) not gender dysphoria? Is it because I don’t believe I have gender dysphoria (I’m autistic, it’s a nightmare lol) or is it an ‘objective distinction’? Does the ‘global’ nature of my dysphoria rule me out of being DX’d with GD?

I dont have useful answers.

Just a general point about how attempts to classify things inevitably ends up saying things about aspects of the society attempting the classification, including when they attempt to move with the times and incorporate an evolution of values, attempts to accomodate people etc by updating things, adjusting language and concepts.

I always find the ICD-10 entry for F20.6, 'Simple schizophrenia' to be an interesting hint of what I'm trying to get at, although it relates a bit more to what I said earlier than my main point in this post.

Simple schizophrenia
A disorder in which there is an insidious but progressive development of oddities of conduct, inability to meet the demands of society, and decline in total performance. The characteristic negative features of residual schizophrenia (e.g. blunting of affect and loss of volition) develop without being preceded by any overt psychotic symptoms.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Do you think in Bell’s case it was an unusual lapse of normal procedure and so by mistake a not really trans person slipped through the net ?

What do you mean by 'not really trans person'? How are we judging that exactly?

As far as I'm aware anyone undergoing medical treatment like that has to be fully informed of the consequences and give informed consent as understood in law. So yeah, I'm guessing that if she was not fully informed and did not give informed consent then procedures were not followed.

 

[bimble]

What do you mean by 'not really trans person'? How are we judging that exactly?

As far as I'm aware anyone undergoing medical treatment like that has to be fully informed of the consequences and give informed consent as understood in law. So yeah, I'm guessing that if she was not fully informed and did not give informed consent then procedures were not followed.

I’m just going by what she’s said, that she thought she was but isn’t.

I'm not aware of whether she was treated differently (worse, more quickly) than anyone else, haven't read all about it tbh, but I don't think her accusation was against any particular member of staff, who failed to follow procedure, it was more general, it was about the procedure itself not a deviation from it. as far as i know.

 

[Shechemite]

Yes of course and there are. Whats your point?

MadeInBedlam did you even read my post?

apart from the obvious wankerness of your ‘I’m sorry she feels like other people should have stopped her’

1) informed consent isnt exactly routine in medicine (especially MH related)

2) the failure of others to prevent her (ie by relying on parental consent for a child wishing to have GD treatment) was precisely what Keira bells case rested on wasn’t it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

I’m just going by what she’s said, that she thought she was but isn’t.

I'm not aware of whether she was treated differently (worse, more quickly) than anyone else, haven't read all about it tbh, but I don't think her accusation was against any particular member of staff, who failed to follow procedure, it was more general, it was about the procedure itself not a deviation from it. as far as i know.

I'm not going to speculate on an individual case I don't know all the detail on and I don't think you should either. But if you are worried that teenagers can just walk into a clinic and just get prescribed puberty blockers without some very serious discussions happening, then you can stop worrying because that isn't a standard occurrence-whatever may have happened in this particular incident.

 

[SpackleFrog]

apart from the obvious wankerness of your ‘I’m sorry she feels like other people should have stopped her’

1) informed consent isnt exactly routine in medicine (especially MH related)

2) the failure of others to prevent her (ie by relying on parental consent for a child wishing to have GD treatment) was precisely what Keira bells case rested on wasn’t it?

I think I would avoid the phrase "obvious wanker" if I were you.

What point are you trying to make? I'm clearly not arguing against informed consent am I? I'm not saying its fine to dole out medical treatment without fully explaining the possible consequences.

Just to make it clear: I'm saying that whatever her experience of the health care system was, it does not make it ok for her to argue that trans kids should be denied all medical treatment or that women need men with guns to accompany them into toilets to protect them from trans women.

 

[Border Reiver]

That’s certainly contentious and not the widely held viewed. Sure, cognitive components of schizophrenia are there. But negative symptoms (anhedonia, flat affect, apathy, poverty of speech- my bro has this a lot) are probably the most life effecting. And of course so called positive symptoms (hallucinations, delusions) the most obvious and often affect-driven (paranoid, or manic, or dysthymic). Thought disorder can be seen as a cognitive symptom, but certainly isn’t always present with psychosis.

Dysphoria means disturbance of affect (mood). Cognitive impairments may cause dysphoria but are separate. Positive symptoms are largely cognitive. Negative symptoms are largely affective.

 

[bimble]

I'm not going to speculate on an individual case I don't know all the detail on and I don't think you should either. But if you are worried that teenagers can just walk into a clinic and just get prescribed puberty blockers without some very serious discussions happening, then you can stop worrying because that isn't a standard occurrence-whatever may have happened in this particular incident.

I .. ok. I'm not currently worried. But my niece was offered them (blockers) but it turns out she wasn't trans (her words) and is glad she decided to not take em straight away when offered. This is not in UK tho.

 

[Shechemite]

I think I would avoid the phrase "obvious wanker" if I were you.

Saying things like this do make you sound like a wanker though

 

[Border Reiver]

I'm not going to speculate on an individual case I don't know all the detail on and I don't think you should either. But if you are worried that teenagers can just walk into a clinic and just get prescribed puberty blockers without some very serious discussions happening, then you can stop worrying because that isn't a standard occurrence-whatever may have happened in this particular incident.

Average wait time for a first appointment with secondary care is eighteen months to two years.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Saying things like this do make you sound like a wanker though

Each to their own. I can't say I'm that impressed with you either.

 

[Border Reiver]

apart from the obvious wankerness of your ‘I’m sorry she feels like other people should have stopped her’

1) informed consent isnt exactly routine in medicine (especially MH related)

2) the failure of others to prevent her (ie by relying on parental consent for a child wishing to have GD treatment) was precisely what Keira bells case rested on wasn’t it?

1/ informed consent is always adhered to be even if the client disagrees or does not understand, even in mental health.

2/ The case only directly addressed child consent (Gillick Competence) I suspect it will be overturned on appeal. The side reference to parental consent has already been overturned by the appeal court.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I .. ok. I'm not currently worried. But my niece was offered them (blockers) but it turns out she wasn't trans (her words) and is glad she decided to not take em straight away when offered. This is not in UK tho.

Sounds like there's nothing to worry about then.

 

[Border Reiver]

Dysphoria means disturbance of affect (mood). Cognitive impairments may cause dysphoria but are separate. Positive symptoms are largely cognitive. Negative symptoms are largely affective.

Dysphoria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bimble]

Sounds like there's nothing to worry about then.

Maybe not all 14 year olds are as brilliant and self aware as my niece though, to turn down the thing she went there to get, and waited months to be offered. But yeah, I'm not worrying, I'm making pasta.

 

[Border Reiver]

Do you think there should be single sex wards in hospitals?

It depends on what is meant by single sex wards and what the client group is.

 

[Border Reiver]

Maybe not all 14 year olds are as brilliant and self aware as my niece though, to turn down the thing she went there to get, and waited months to be offered. But yeah, I'm not worrying, I'm making pasta.

I am making curry. But I do worry about the rights of Gillick Competent children to retain their right to decide their own medical treatment.

 

[Shechemite]

1/ informed consent is always adhered to be even if the client disagrees or does not understand, even in mental health.

lol

 

[Shechemite]

It depends on what is meant by single sex wards and what the client group is.

Separate wards for men and women, on the basis of sex. (I’m not sure what else that could mean)

 

[SpackleFrog]

Maybe not all 14 year olds are as brilliant and self aware as my niece though, to turn down the thing she went there to get, and waited months to be offered. But yeah, I'm not worrying, I'm making pasta.

She wasn't just offered them then? She had to wait months?

 

[Athos]

Not if determining the real views of the person on the subject.

But it doesn't even do that; on one interpretation the original 'killer question' just asks what the law is, rather than what it should be.

 

[bimble]

I am making curry. But I do worry about the rights of Gillick Competent children to retain their right to decide their own medical treatment.

multi tasking! I admire you.

 

[bimble]

She wasn't just offered them then? She had to wait months?

Wait months for first appointment, then route to being offered the meds was quick, in her case.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Wait months for first appointment, then route to being offered the meds was quick, in her case.

I see. Where was it, out of interest?

 

[bimble]

I see. Where was it, out of interest?

america.

 

[Raheem]

I'm pretty sure lots of people will be prescribed or ask to be prescribed puberty blockers, and then later identify as cis, or otherwise not wish to transition. It's a function of their usefulness for people who have not yet reached a decision or are not yet in a position to give consent. Obviously they shouldn't be prescribed lightly , though.