Athos
Well-Known Member
It may or may not be problematic - depends on the content of the changes they're pursuing.
But it does mean your "killer question" is actually less than lethal.
Is this woman a transphobe?
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It may or may not be problematic - depends on the content of the changes they're pursuing.
But it does mean your "killer question" is actually less than lethal.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Personally I think what the gender identity/acceptance stuff does is push the issue of how society ought to respond to mental distress. To best support a person with mental distress, to what extent should we be 1) addressing their social condition), 2) ‘treating’ their distress, 3) affirming their beliefs
I’m not trans. I don’t know what it is to live with gender dysphoria. I imagine its crap (as indeed is dealing with the discrimination that goes with it.)
(edited for clarity)
I’m not trans. I don’t know what it is to live with gender dysphoria. I imagine its crap (as indeed is dealing with the discrimination that goes with it.)
(edited for clarity)
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SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Thats of course a fair point to raise - Twitter is a private company that makes decisions about who is expressing bigotry and who isn't and I agree that is not a good thing.
I'd still say what is in the OP is bigotry, whether it is intentionally expressing bigotry or unknowingly repeating bigotry as fact. In the same way we might say people expressing everyday racist views are perhaps unknowingly expressing/repeating bigotry without necessarily having bad intentions.
Conversion therapy, in this context, is a form of therapy which seeks to convert a trans person into a non trans person. To cure them of being trans in effect. Opposing this does not mean opposing all discussion about the nature, reason for or intended outcomes of a gender dysphoric patient, it means opposing therapies which set out to prevent them being trans or which oppose a trans identity. If a patient presents as trans, at any age, it means that a therapist doesn't immediately say you're probably just gay or a lesbian really, or tells them they aren't trans, or attempts to persuade them they aren't trans, or shouldn't be trans. It doesn't mean they can't have wide ranging discussions about the narure of that, it doesn't mean they should push for treatment, and also, and most importantly it means should the patient's identity change then the therapist should be equally supportive of that. Their identity, and how they experience it, lies with the patient, not the therapist's opinions or ideology.
I've posted examples of what gender identity conversion therapy has looked like in the past.. There are no established medical protocols or published literature that supports this or any other attempt to change a trans identity. And those who have had these practices inflicted on them have testified as to the harm done.
The claim that this will lead to gay and lesbian or gender nonconforming kids being transed is complete bullshit. Contrary to claims LGB people are being erased there are more young people identifying as LGB than at any point in written history. Like much of GC ideology, these claims are based on something that could possibly happen, but which is highly unlikely to and which hasn't happened so far. Almost every aspect of the GC argument is speculative, and not just that but always speculates on the worst possible outcome, no matter how implausible or unsupported by what has gone before. So men will start pretending to be trans to abuse women, LGB kids will all be transed, trans inclusive women's shortlists will end with boards of 50% trans 50% men, no cis woman will ever win another gold medal, all of the trans kids being treated will live lives full of anguish or regret over their mutilated bodies, the census results will be meaningless, there will be no point doing gender pay auditing and ultimately that women will be erased or replaced by as little as using language which is inclusive of trans men in some healthcare settings. All of these claims are complete bullshit. None of them comes with any evidence and in fact in countries which have been more trans inclusive none have happened. It's a bit like when someone claims that accepting refuges means we'll be inundated by undercover suicide bombers intent on destroying the nation, or that any mild concessions to Islam such as serving halal food means sharia law and Islamification of the UK is now inevitable.
That doesn't mean there is no debate to be had, but it should not be one based on ever more lurid scare mongering. Gender neutral toilets for example would not mean the complete erasure of women and toilets turned into dens of predators but that we'll be a bit more like somewhere like Sweden. Some people might not like that and fair enough, let's talk about that, let's talk to the VAWG sector, and the workers and residents, and have reasoned discussions amongst those it affects in sport but not base every conversation on the threat of imminent dystopia caused by a predatory 'ideology' that is seeking to destroy women and children and gays and lesbians and everything that is sacred and good (like prisons and the Olympics). Because that's actually a pretty offensive position to begin with from the trans perspective which is why a lot of trans people do not choose to engage in this debate.
Finally we can only speculate why some on the left have been seduced by such spurious arguments that we would recognise as disingenuous bigotry if applied to any other group. But it seems no coincidence that these attitudes are far more prevalent amongst those of us who grew up in a period when trans people were virtually invisible in public life and usually presented in culture as either the punchline to a joke, a highly sexualised victim, or a serial killer. A generation that despite a few subcultures was raised in an environment in which gender nonconformity was viewed with suspicion - particularly any form of femininity in those born physically male which was policed with derision and even violence. A deeply transphobic enviroment in other words and I find it hard to believe that has had no bearing on the attitudes of some involved in this debate.
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hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I don't think it's either/or, is it? Cos if we have to pick just one, and we choose option 1, does that not mean we're back to "well, after the revolution it'll be reet"?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Yeah wasn’t meant to set it up as either/or. Poor wording on my part
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
My point is that the politics of dysphoria aren’t separate from the wider politics of mental health.
My brother who has “schizophrenia” (episodes of psychosis all his adult life) understands his mental illness as a kind of dysphoria with society/knowing how to be. By that I mean that he doesn’t know how to be. It’s hard to describe without it being too personal and confidential so I won’t.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Yeah, my experience is very much having to put a lot of energy/take a lot of risks to learn how to be (a work in progress).
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Dysphoria with society?
Not being facetious but sounds like not having that would be a concern.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Because?
The point is that this whole bullshit discussion derives from "gender critical" provocations, not the other way round.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not true. Keira Bell is an example of how this is not true. Labelled a bigot by some for finding a way to deal with dysphoria that involved downplaying gender rather than essentialising it. I find it extraordinary that people should attack Keira Bell, but there it is. There is an absence of empathy and solidarity on display from all sides here.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Safety for me but not for thee.
I wasn't going to press you on your hopeless response to my question about where eg. Stonewall say this sort of thing. I actually felt embarrassed for you. But you're back with "TRAs seem to say it does". Can I just call bullshit on this until you provide some evidence.
As for the "gender critical pov", I would suggest that for many it's an ideology of convenience, just another provocation and besides people can hold all sorts of contradictions in their heads. You think this whole "why, oh why are they shutting down these conversion therapy centres" talk is not a defence of conversion therapy? It's difficult to tell whether you are being dishonest or naïve at this point.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Is there a gender critical perspective that isn’t transphobic?
I'm less concerned about what she's saying than who she's allying with.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
I can imagine that. I have imagined that. Indeed I have acted on it.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Border Reiver
Active Member
Not if determining the real views of the person on the subject.
Border Reiver
Active Member
Dysphoria applies to affect (mood) not cognition. One aspect of "schizophrenia" is affect but most is cognitive.
Border Reiver
Active Member
As far as organisations of professional therapists are concerned, "Conversion Therapy" only applies to sexual object, not gender identity.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a sick society.
<Google says that’s a Krishnamurti quote - I thought it was someone else>
That’s certainly contentious and not the widely held viewed. Sure, cognitive components of schizophrenia are there. But negative symptoms (anhedonia, flat affect, apathy, poverty of speech- my bro has this a lot) are probably the most life effecting. And of course so called positive symptoms (hallucinations, delusions) the most obvious and often affect-driven (paranoid, or manic, or dysthymic). Thought disorder can be seen as a cognitive symptom, but certainly isn’t always present with psychosis.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
yeah, anyone making grand statements about mental health issues probably is to be distrusted tbh. One of the first things to acknowledge is how fucking much we don't understand.
wrt gender dysphoria specifically, it is clearly a mix of affect and cognition. The mental distress is accompanied by the feeling of a mismatch between body and mind, which necessarily involves cognition. It's a false division.
wrt gender dysphoria specifically, it is clearly a mix of affect and cognition. The mental distress is accompanied by the feeling of a mismatch between body and mind, which necessarily involves cognition. It's a false division.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
That's not what people are actually saying, though, is it? Like this is what smokedout said:
I don't think that stuff is just reducible to "finding a way to deal with dysphoria that involved downplaying gender rather than essentialising it". I don't care how people deal with their dysphoria, I wish them good luck in whatever works best for them, but that's not the same as working politically with Posie Parker and the Christian right (if those even count as two separate things).
Depends how you define gender critical, innit. Red and Black Leeds, Gender Nihilism, bleedin' Baedan and all that lot are all clearly critical of gender. But if you define it as "stuff floating around in the LGB Alliance/Women's Place/Posie Parker/Hands Across The Aisle/Women’s Liberation Front swamp", then no, I'm not sure there can be.
elbows
Well-Known Member
With schizophrenia the variations in extent and timing/progression of the mood aspects are one of the reasons there is currently a bewildering array of different classifications available when we look below the surface.
Schizoaffective disorders, hebephrenic schizophrenia, post-schizophrenic depression and residual schizophrenia to name a few.
Chuck in a bunch of others, including those involving people whose history makes it more likely that a schizoid personality disorder is the diagnosis eventually settled upon, and we have quite a messy picture. One I would certainly highlight if trying to discuss the idea that these classifications have less to do with distinctly different underlying causes, and more to do with typical human attempts to classify things so that the societal, medical etc response to them can be standardised.
Perhaps as far as broader societal understanding goes, more awareness of some of the detail of paranoid schizophrenia and catatonic schizophrenia compared to the various other forms is what causes some to underestimate the significance of things like blunted affects and inappropriate affect as significant aspects.
Schizoaffective disorders, hebephrenic schizophrenia, post-schizophrenic depression and residual schizophrenia to name a few.
Chuck in a bunch of others, including those involving people whose history makes it more likely that a schizoid personality disorder is the diagnosis eventually settled upon, and we have quite a messy picture. One I would certainly highlight if trying to discuss the idea that these classifications have less to do with distinctly different underlying causes, and more to do with typical human attempts to classify things so that the societal, medical etc response to them can be standardised.
Perhaps as far as broader societal understanding goes, more awareness of some of the detail of paranoid schizophrenia and catatonic schizophrenia compared to the various other forms is what causes some to underestimate the significance of things like blunted affects and inappropriate affect as significant aspects.
elbows
Well-Known Member
The wikipedia page for dysphoria currently includes this bit:
en.wikipedia.org
Dysphoria - Wikipedia
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Why? Look, I feel sorry for her, I'm sorry she regrets her transition and feels like people should have stopped her transitioning etc. It might be bigotry that is understandable in context. But it doesn't follow that she gets a pass for cheerleading scaremongering about trans women being rapists or saying no trans children should get medical support. Its still a massively unhelpful intervention.
Once more though, self ID is getting lumped in with medical treatment and its not helpful. Someone who is going to take medication should be fully informed of the consequences and give informed consent. That doesn't mean someone who wants to go through the transition process should have to have a doctor sign off on it.
bimble
floofy
Lately my main feeling is that I hope I live long enough to see what things are like on the other side of this spite-filled shitfest, I mean maybe a generation down the line, what will it all look like. I think that it could go various ways, we can’t see because we’re in the eye of the storm sort of (well not me personally but you know, those directly impacted or working in this field). On that sort of timescale I’m pretty optimistic, in a few different directions.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
The wikipedia page for dysphoria currently includes this bit:
Dysphoria - Wikipedia
how is the difference between dysphoria and specifically dysphoria regarding our sexed bodies and a gendered society? How is this measured? Is my dysphoria (which includes ‘severe unease and discomfort’ with both my body and gendered society) not gender dysphoria? Is it because I don’t believe I have gender dysphoria (I’m autistic, it’s a nightmare lol) or is it an ‘objective distinction’? Does the ‘global’ nature of my dysphoria rule me out of being DX’d with GD?
