Is Elon Musk the greatest visionary or the greatest snake oil salesman of our age?

[gosub]

Yep, a service which is all about human interaction is about as far from his comfort/competence zone as you could get! What a car crash.

Ironic that he's managed to take the human interaction out of car crashes

 

[Sue]

I think Tesla buyers are also innovators, they are taking a risk on something new, something without long term ownership evidence. And in that way they are also thought leaders and trend setters.

They're people who bought a car.

 

[weltweit]

The share price drop could be a correction, valuing Tesla more as a standard car company rather than whatever it was valued at before. But also Tesla does more than cars now, it does solar, battery walls for homes, and I believe the grid batteries as installed in South Australia are also done under the Tesla name.

 

[Red Cat]

They're people who bought a car.

I wouldn't go as far as weltweit but I would say that they're people who bought a fantasy along with a car and identified themselves with something future oriented, innovative and new.

 

[BigMoaner]

Done my own little thought experiment just now, picturing myself in some car show room, and thought if I had say the money for a tesla and x, y and z other models of the same value, would I go for teh Tezla - all lined up in front, five or so different brands. A definite resistance to it, and a definite interest in the other brands. Resistance Based entirely on what has been going on. Oh that forever online man boy made these, i think I will check out the mondeo. granted, i'm probably as forever online as Musk, followed and posted on this thread, etc so a definite skewing, but still. He really is not projecting an image of a person who knows what they are doing.

try it

 

[bluescreen]

Done my own little thought experiment just now, picturing myself in some car show room, and thought if I had say the money for a tesla and x, y and z other models of the same value, would I go for teh Tezla - all lined up in front, five or so different brands. A definite resistance to it, and a definite interest in the other brands. Resistance Based entirely on what has been going on. Oh that forever online man boy made these, i think I will check out the mondeo. granted, i'm probably as forever online as Musk, followed and posted on this thread, etc so a definite skewing, but still. He really is not projecting an image of a person who knows what they are doing.

try it

Also, the Tesla after sales care is reputedly shite, even where it is available..

 

[Red Cat]

Also, the Tesla after sales care is reputedly shite, even where it is ava

Maybe that's the risk weltweit was referring to.

 

[weltweit]

Also, the Tesla after sales care is reputedly shite, even where it is available..

Hmm

I have an old Vauxhall Corsa. It failed it's MOT this year needing among a couple of other things two replacement ball joints. The local UK garage which did the MOT said they could get the bits that morning and I could have my repaired MOT passed car back that afternoon. And so it came to pass.

That these unusual bits were available pretty much instantly says a lot for the supply lines for existing cars.
I doubt Tesla has yet such an impressive spares network.

 

[pbsmooth]

I wonder to what extent it's calculated, and the know that unless someone is having some sort of meltdown on Twitter, half the users don't actually use it. He's playing the Trump role of attracting attention at any cost. Maybe that's how it starts and he can't help himself.

 

[Yossarian]

Done my own little thought experiment just now, picturing myself in some car show room, and thought if I had say the money for a tesla and x, y and z other models of the same value, would I go for teh Tezla - all lined up in front, five or so different brands. A definite resistance to it, and a definite interest in the other brands. Resistance Based entirely on what has been going on. Oh that forever online man boy made these, i think I will check out the mondeo. granted, i'm probably as forever online as Musk, followed and posted on this thread, etc so a definite skewing, but still. He really is not projecting an image of a person who knows what they are doing.

try it

I'd be worried that the Tesla software would come preloaded with shitty boomer memes.

 

[pbsmooth]

I certainly wouldn't want to buy a Tesla now due to his public persona. Something that wasn't the case I guess 12 months ago when he hadn't said quite as many stupid things out loud.
More pressingly for Tesla, all the big players will soon have loads of electric cars to compete.

 

[bluescreen]

Here's a recent article from Hotcars outlining some of the problems with the cars (archived to avoid coercive cookie crap):

Welcome to nginx!

Some of those problems won't go away any time soon.

And here's another from elektrek about servicing problems in US:

Tesla is sending untrained employees to work on cars as service becomes problematic

Tesla is sending some of its employees who are not in service and are untrained to work on cars into...

electrek.co

(Not that I'm remotely in the market for one of these things. )

 

[Rob Ray]

I doubt Tesla has yet such an impressive spares network.

Infamously while it's made a fuss about letting people do a limited amount of DIY repairing since 2018, Tesla's professional setup is a Silicon Valley special aimed at creating a closed ecosystem to keep profits in the firm. Your local shop is essentially blocked from fixing a Tesla by contracts, deliberately obfuscated systems and withheld parts. At some point it'll probably go to court on anti-competitive grounds I expect but meanwhile it relies on their specialist centers.

 

[Nylock]

Hmm

I have an old Vauxhall Corsa. It failed it's MOT this year needing among a couple of other things two replacement ball joints. The local UK garage which did the MOT said they could get the bits that morning and I could have my repaired MOT passed car back that afternoon. And so it came to pass.

That these unusual bits were available pretty much instantly says a lot for the supply lines for existing cars.
I doubt Tesla has yet such an impressive spares network.

Tbf, a ball joint is a pretty common part....

 

[Chz]

Hmm

I have an old Vauxhall Corsa. It failed it's MOT this year needing among a couple of other things two replacement ball joints. The local UK garage which did the MOT said they could get the bits that morning and I could have my repaired MOT passed car back that afternoon. And so it came to pass.

That these unusual bits were available pretty much instantly says a lot for the supply lines for existing cars.
I doubt Tesla has yet such an impressive spares network.

Tesla owners have waited months for parts.
The main reason they've got away with it for the most part is that EVs simply have less moving parts than a traditional auto. There's less to go wrong, less parts to fail. Just think how much maintenance is involved in the engine/transmission on a petrol car - electric motors are extremely reliable, easily besting 1980s Mercedes diesels (SWT is currently running trains that have motors originally built in the 1940s), and EVs have no transmission to speak of.

 

[weltweit]

I certainly wouldn't want to buy a Tesla now due to his public persona. Something that wasn't the case I guess 12 months ago when he hadn't said quite as many stupid things out loud.

I think your feelings are not unusual. When he was an unknown quantity people could just focus on the Tesla car itself which was generally seen as a good thing. Now one is effectively filling the coffers of one of the richest and quite right wing people and that does not sit so comfortably especially with left leaning people.

Still Will i am was an early adopter and I expect people like him supporting Tesla will have a positive effect.

More pressingly for Tesla, all the big players will soon have loads of electric cars to compete.

Yes, BMW has been making a lot of noise on various social media.

As with Tesla, cheap EVs are not yet available.

 

[weltweit]

Tbf, a ball joint is a pretty common part....

Do you think they are standardised across the Vauxhall range?

 

[teqniq]

Tbf, a ball joint is a pretty common part....

I though this as well. Car manufacturers are known for using other manufacturer's parts in their own models sometimes including whole engines and/or gearboxes. It will likely turn out that the balljoints in Teslas are off-the-shelf parts used by many companies. It would just be a question of identifying which particular balljoint it is.

 

[weltweit]

It seems Tesla do do cold weather testing of a sort :

 

[Red Cat]

I wonder to what extent it's calculated, and the know that unless someone is having some sort of meltdown on Twitter, half the users don't actually use it. He's playing the Trump role of attracting attention at any cost. Maybe that's how it starts and he can't help himself.

He seems excited by risk and enjoys disrupting, he likes breaking rules, defying expectation, and can't stand to feel controlled in any way. Some of this is just more of the same, it's his need to do whatever he wants, especially in opposition to what others want or expect.

I think he's also managed his various projects in a way that works for him because in his mind they're all linked in one big project, it's all one big task, and there's been some success. He's trying to shoehorn twitter into his plan, I can't see how it fits, but it will make sense to him in some way because I think that's how he maintains some kind of control, even when it seems like he's losing it on the outside. But I guess what will happen more and more is that the limits and conflicts between different aspects of reality, of his business, will bump up against his plan and cracks will become more obvious, so I do think that some of this is him not coping very well under huge pressure, not being able say no to himself, and nobody else being able to say no to him either.

It looks like a mess. On the other hand, who knows.

 

[Nylock]

Do you think they are standardised across the Vauxhall range?

Maybe not the entire Vauxhall range but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a common part across the corsa and astra ranges, certainly on the older models. They're very similar in size and mechanicals. My passat, for instance, has many parts in common with the golf, polo and jetta/bora....

 

[gosub]

I think Tesla buyers are also innovators, they are taking a risk on something new, something without long term ownership evidence. And in that way they are also thought leaders and trend setters.

And there may be evidence that they have to be innovators, one Tesla car has some kind of push button door openers rather than more traditional handles. In a recent cold spell people found they couldn't get into their Teslas because the buttons had frozen over. It seems Tesla couldn't have done sufficient cold weather testing on that model.

I didn't think you bought a Tesla , more a rental gig....the very early adopters rechargeable batteries don't last for ever , probably about time for better idea of built in obsolescence/reconditioning to start emerging

 

[Ax^]

He seems excited by risk and enjoys disrupting, he likes breaking rules, defying expectation, and can't stand to feel controlled in any way. Some of this is just more of the same, it's his need to do whatever he wants, especially in opposition to what others want or expect.

I think he's also managed his various projects in a way that works for him because in his mind they're all linked in one big project, it's all one big task, and there's been some success. He's trying to shoehorn twitter into his plan, I can't see how it fits, but it will make sense to him in some way because I think that's how he maintains some kind of control, even when it seems like he's losing it on the outside. But I guess what will happen more and more is that the limits and conflicts between different aspects of reality, of his business, will bump up against his plan and cracks will become more obvious, so I do think that some of this is him not coping very well under huge pressure, not being able say no to himself, and nobody else being able to say no to him either.

It looks like a mess. On the other hand, who knows.

not sure twitter was in his plans just his ego finally caught up with him

and half his shit in twitter is because he kid came out as trans

 

[a_chap]

 

[two sheds]

A margin call occurs when the percentage of an investor’s equity in a margin account falls below the broker’s required amount. An investor’s margin account contains securities bought with a combination of the investor’s own money and money borrowed from the investor’s broker.

A margin call refers specifically to a broker’s demand that an investor deposit additional money or securities into the account so that the value of the investor's equity (and the account value) rises to a minimum value indicated by the maintenance requirement.

A margin call is usually an indicator that securities held in the margin account have decreased in value. When a margin call occurs, the investor must choose to either deposit additional funds or marginable securities in the account or sell some of the assets held in their account.

Margin Call: What It Is and How to Meet One with Examples

A margin call is a request for funds from a broker when money must be added to a margin account to meet minimum capital requirements.

www.investopedia.com

last paragraph looks tricky

 

[Red Cat]

not sure twitter was in his plans just his ego finally caught up with him

and half his shit in twitter is because he kid came out as trans

I didn't say it was in his plans, I was describing how he seems to hold himself together mentally by a plan, or an idea, he doesn't see spacex and tesla as in conflict because he has an idea about space or whatever, but twitter doesn't fit with that grandiose plan, so the conflicts between his businesses are more obvious, and it makes it more likely that he won't 'cope' in the way that he seems to have done in other high pressure situations.

I'm aware of his adult child. I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said.

 

[emanymton]

It's closer than I thought and the gap is narrowing, according to a poll from earlier this year - I thought owning an electric vehicle would be a little too close to full-blown Communism for your typical Republican but apparently the EV aspect isn't the main draw for many Tesla buyers.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/03/cars/tesla-buyer-politics/index.html

Voting Democrat is not left wing.

 

[BigMoaner]

What does that mean?

 

[Supine]

Voting Democrat is not left wing.

It is in relative terms.

 

[alex_]

What does that mean?

The twitter purchase was funded using loans secured on Tesla stock.

Tesla stock has fallen a lot this year.

The loans will have contractual terms which require repayments or additional payments if Tesla stock falls past a certain price.

This is the margin call.

If he has to sell Tesla stock to meet the payments, the share price may fall further and trigger more Margin calls

On no