Irish equal marriage referendum

[8den]

Or your 'statistics' Vs the opinions of those who live there?

Again, bless thank god we have LiamO our man in the street, who confidential can tell you what everyone in these neighbourhoods feels.

Find me a resident, a social worker, a community worker, a drugs worker or even a Garda who agrees with you.

Sure, but why would I bother, you'd just dismiss them out of hand. You're a fine man for telling us how the world works and dismissing anyone who opinion dissents with your own. Mind you I admire your restraint, you've not called me a middle class west brit on this thread yet.

By what measure?

Housing. Do you even remember what Ballymun was like in the mid 80s? Notice those incredibly grim and horrifying hi rises are gone?

By what measure?

By the measure, that child poverty in Ireland is on the increase at the moment due to the recession but it alot better than the mid 80s





Much as I am enjoying this aside, this has arisen because CR wants to make this discussion about anything other than gay rights. I will agree with Spookyfrank that

When I was a teenager you could actually walk the streets despite sectarian assassinations, harassment and bombs .

is a shoo in for the most hilarious statement ever written on urban.


CR and LiamO seem to think Ireland has gone to hell in a handbasket because of the church's dwindling power in Ireland, when in fact the death of the catholic church over the last generation is one thing we can hold our heads up.

It still hasn't gone away the church has a strangle hold on our education system, among my friends all of whom did not get their children babpisted there is now a huge problem finding suitable primary schools. And not because they're terrified of 9 year old rapists

 

[LiamO]

CR and LiamO seem to think Ireland has gone to hell in a handbasket because of the church's dwindling power in Ireland,

No rational person could read my posts here and come to the conclusion that that is my opinion.

 

[8den]

No rational person could read my posts here and come to the conclusion that that is my opinion.

It is CR's position and you're the one propping him up.

 

[LiamO]

It is CR's position and you're the one propping him up.

Did you even read his posts?

It is most definitely NOT his position.

He went to great lengths to explain just how it was not his position - and why. Dunno why he bothered because - even though there is much you could debate within his stated position - you choose to ascribe one to him that is entirely the product of your imagination.

He explained at length his and his family's historical opposition and antagonism to The Church. You just ignored it. Because it suits your own, projected, narrative.

All I read into his posts - and they seemed clear enough to me - was that when we were all so busy (rightly) attacking the institutions and influence of The Church it might have been prescient to look a little further down the line at how things might ripple out in terms of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And how, much to his surprise and embarrassment, he finds the people doing the heavy lifting within those atomised communities are the very (Church-going) people he once so despised.

In the 80's I was as virulently anti-Church as I was anti-Thatcher. But I never envisaged whole working class communities terrorised by Thatcher's bastard grandchildren (in the form of anti-social, predatory gangs) as being part of the ripple-out. None of us did.

I disagree fundamentally with CR on marriage equality. So do you.

But unlike you, I do not need to re-invent him as Matt Talbot-lite to do so.

 

[8den]

CRs delusional rantings on this thread are plan to anyone who can read. You can't try and redact what he's saying and claim he's been taken out of context when people are literally quoting him from a few posts ago.

The idea that derry is more dangerous now than in the 70s or 80s is bizarre, as is his suggestion that children need to be kept out schools due to 9 year old rapists. And CR clearly stated that he thinks Ireland has gone to hell because of the church's decreased roll in Irish society. I'm not sure what is more delusional his claims about what is going on in Ireland right now, or the idea that Ireland is a worse off place because the church's diminished role in our society.


Anyway trying to veer this thread back on topic (because I suspect CR will never explain why he thinks homosexuals should not be allowed marry), the next step in gay rights in Ireland is the dismantlement of section 34. This is institutionalized discrimination, allowing religious orders to discriminate against people based on their sexuality. Since the religious orders still have massive control over education and health care, teachers, doctors and nurses must hide their sexuality less they are dismissed. Labour is pushing ahead with legislation to remove this jim crow institutional bigotry.

 

[LiamO]

The idea that derry is more dangerous now than in the 70s or 80s is bizarre,

Unfortunately it is not. It is a widespread and well documented belief amongst it's citizens. Same goes for many estates in Belfast.

And for Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Dundalk and every Irish town.

It's grim when every cop in some tiny, backwater town in Offaly is warned (by their own) of a 'credible' threat to their life from some local, redneck wannabe gangsters.

 

[LiamO]

And CR clearly stated that he thinks Ireland has gone to hell because of the church's decreased roll in Irish society.

You just made that up.

 

[Casually Red]

It is CR's position and you're the one propping him up.

No it certainly is not , you utter complete head in the clouds fucking wanker .

 

[Casually Red]

CRs delusional rantings on this thread are plan to anyone who can read. You can't try and redact what he's saying and claim he's been taken out of context when people are literally quoting him from a few posts ago.

The idea that derry is more dangerous now than in the 70s or 80s is bizarre, as is his suggestion that children need to be kept out schools due to 9 year old rapists. And CR clearly stated that he thinks Ireland has gone to hell because of the church's decreased roll in Irish society. I'm not sure what is more delusional his claims about what is going on in Ireland right now, or the idea that Ireland is a worse off place because the church's diminished role in our society.


Anyway trying to veer this thread back on topic (because I suspect CR will never explain why he thinks homosexuals should not be allowed marry), the next step in gay rights in Ireland is the dismantlement of section 34. This is institutionalized discrimination, allowing religious orders to discriminate against people based on their sexuality. Since the religious orders still have massive control over education and health care, teachers, doctors and nurses must hide their sexuality less they are dismissed. Labour is pushing ahead with legislation to remove this jim crow institutional bigotry.

No, you're an over privileged little toss pot completely oblivious to what real life is like in disadvantaged communities , and perusing the same identity politics riven bullshit beloved of other middle class snobs . You're clueless . Worse than that you openly laugh at it . You could be in the pds with an attitude like that .

 

[LiamO]

among my friends all of whom did not get their children babpisted there is now a huge problem finding suitable primary schools. And not because they're terrified of 9 year old rapists

Your mob will always find 'suitable' schools.

Next thing you'll be telling me that the recent upsurge in Irish-language schools in leafy south Dublin is due to some cultural renaissance - rather than you posho's looking for 'suitable' schools - ie ones with no poor people or darkies (or 'dorkies' even) in them.

 

[8den]

Anyone can look over what you've written and your prevarication and bullshit on this thread.

But no please tell us more about how much safer the streets of belfast and derry are now, compared to when the shankill butchers roamed around looking for Taigs to kill

 

[Casually Red]

A definite contender for my favourite sentence ever written.

But it's true .

Plainly I'm talking to people who have no conception of what things were like , or what they're like now .

And what's more care even less . Think it's a joke .

 

[8den]

Your mob will always find 'suitable' schools.

Next thing you'll be telling me that the recent upsurge in Irish-language schools in leafy south Dublin is due to some cultural renaissance - rather than you posho's looking for 'suitable' schools - ie ones with no poor people or darkies in them.

See knew you didn't have it you to start with the class war bullshit.

Actually no, people don't want to have to take their children to roman catholic schools


This is question presented in secondary school recently

 

[8den]

But it's true .

Plainly I'm talking to people who have no conception of what things were like , or what they're like now .

No no it's not. Are you really saying the streets of Belfast and Derry are more dangerous now, than in the 1980s?

 

[LiamO]

I would look forward to reading my daughter's responses to those questions

 

[SpookyFrank]

No no it's not. Are you really saying the streets of Belfast and Derry are more dangerous now, than in the 1980s?

You could leave your door unlocked back then though. Because someone had already blown up the rest of your house, so it didn't matter one way or another.

 

[Casually Red]

Your mob will always find 'suitable' schools.

Next thing you'll be telling me that the recent upsurge in Irish-language schools in leafy south Dublin is due to some cultural renaissance - rather than you posho's looking for 'suitable' schools - ie ones with no poor people or darkies (or 'dorkies' even) in them.

It's a bit easier to find a "suitable school " in a district were they build them . And not one hemmed in by peace walls and the fucking west link . With chronic housing shortages .

Hell be telling us to aspire more in a minute .

 

[SpookyFrank]

We are caretakers, not the owners of the life god has entrusted to us. Write an essay which reconciles this position with the methods and principles of the spanish inquisition. Good luck.

 

[8den]

I would look forward to reading my daughter's responses to those questions

I'd prefer my children not forced to debate such religious indoctrinated bullshit. I'm lucky we managed to get my son into one of the educate together schools, a nondenominational progressive school (and hey before you get the boot in LiamO isn't not some posh private school, they're the most inclusive, non fee charging schools and massively over subscribed). But people living elsewhere are being forced to baptize their children because there aren't other options. Alternatively their children are bullied in RC schools if their parents try and exclude them from mandatory catholic education. The angelus, communion and confirmation.

 

[Sasaferrato]

See knew you didn't have it you to start with the class war bullshit.

Actually no, people don't want to have to take their children to roman catholic schools


This is question presented in secondary school recently

WTF? This needs more context. What type of school, and which part of the curriculum?

 

[8den]

WTF? This needs more context. What type of school, and which part of the curriculum?

Roman Catholic. 5th year (approx 15yo) Religious Education. Catholic Catechism is a mandatory subject in these schools (which are the majority schools in the country) despite the fact that there are no final exams in this subject.

This means 3 hours a week is taken up by this from the time children start school to their final year, with very little teaching of alternative faiths or atheism.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I'd prefer my children not forced to debate such religious indoctrinated bullshit. I'm lucky we managed to get my son into one of the educate together schools, a nondenominational progressive school (and hey before you get the boot in LiamO isn't not some posh private school, they're the most inclusive, non fee charging schools and massively over subscribed). But people living elsewhere are being forced to baptize their children because there aren't other options. Alternatively their children are bullied in RC schools if their parents try and exclude them from mandatory catholic education. The angelus, communion and confirmation.

There appears to be a stark division between the curricula of Catholic schools in Eire and Catholic schools in Scotland.

My grandson attends a Catholic primary school, and will be moving to a Catholic secondary school after the Summer. The school is about 60/40 Catholic/non Catholic. There is RE, of course, which is in line with the national curriculum. The pupils have the opportunity to attend Mass weekly, and the lad goes, of his own volition. He's 12, and old enough and wise enough to make his own mind up. The family is nominally C of S, but should the lad decide to become a Roman Catholic, then that is his choice. We occasionally chat about religion, in a comparative sense, and somewhat like me, he likes some aspects of some faiths, but not all aspects of any one.

That question paper is absolutely horrific, if one set out to create a 'loaded' set of questions, it would be difficult to top it.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Roman Catholic. 5th year (approx 15yo) Religious Education. Catholic Catechism is a mandatory subject in these schools (which are the majority schools in the country) despite the fact that there are no final exams in this subject.

This means 3 hours a week is taken up by this from the time children start school to their final year, with very little teaching of alternative faiths or atheism.

A long way to go to achieve what might be regarded as 'normality' then.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I would look forward to reading my daughter's responses to those questions

I would actually quite like to read your responses.

 

[cesare]

Do you say "Eire" because of your stamp collecting, Sasaferrato? My Irish cousin took me to task for using it back in the 90s.

 

[Belushi]

I like the name Eire but have never used it because I've never heard an Irish person use it, just seen it on stamps and coins when I was a kid.

 

[8den]

A long way to now to achieve what might be regarded as 'normality' then.

The church "owns" an enormous amount of schools in Ireland, the vast majority. Private schools (the kind that LiamO thinks I attended, but did not) are more often protestant or non denominational.

A number of religious orders are dragging their heels on paying damages for clerical sexual abuse, and a former education Minister for the labour party was keen on nationalising these schools as payment in kind.

There's a small but growing movement of free schools, but they are massively over subscribed we're fortunate to get my son into one.

 

[8den]

Do you say "Eire" because of your stamp collecting, Sasaferrato? My Irish cousin took me to task for using it back in the 90s.

Eire is the Gaeilge for Ireland. It's correct but rarely used in day to day life.

 

[cesare]

Eire is the Gaeilge for Ireland. It's correct but rarely used in day to day life.

My cousin told me that it reeked of the British state deciding what the name was after their imposition of Ireland less the six counties. Different generation though, and possibly a lot more touchy. She suggested that I use ROI instead and I just took her at her word tbh.

 

[8den]

I'm not sure how it is now but in primary school we had

3-5 hours of religious education (read catholic catechism) a week.

In addition stopping for prayer three times a day.

More education for the years you were doing holy communion, confession and confirmation ( a extra half day a week) on these three years.

So essentially one full school day a week dominated by catholicsm at times (excluding things like choir practice)

In Secondary education it was about 2-3 hours a week (or a half day a week) on religion. and again stopping for prayers three times a day.