Irish equal marriage referendum

[cesare]

Surely that referred to church paedophile abuse

Was it? What's that got to do with gay marriage?

 

[cesare]

Not read the thread. Can you paraphrase the progress to date, please?

Beyond my ability I'm afraid. I'm sure you're up to doing that though.

 

[Humberto]

Was it? What's that got to do with gay marriage?

If you read the thread the discussion on the last page you'll know

 

[cesare]

If you read the thread the discussion on the last page you'll know

I'll pass.

 

[Athos]

Beyond my ability I'm afraid. I'm sure you're up to doing that though.

I lack the motivation.

 

[Humberto]

I'll pass.

 

[cesare]

 

[Casually Red]

Irish man in complex relationship with the catholic church. In other news pope shits in the woods.

Actually it's not complex any more at all . Despite cheering their downfall I've been even more disgusted at what filled the vacuum . Which has been infinitely worse . I've realised that all those lefties who moaned and winged about the church holding them back have proven themselves not just structurally incapable of filling that vacuum , but mentally , personally , spiritually and ideologically as well . To have been largely infantile, totally unfit for purpose and just hiding behind excuses .
I've looked around and seen the decrepit and often degenerate state of our communities a full generation on and realised my generation has the unenviable distinction of leaving behind a much worse situation than the one we inherited . And I find that quite shameful .
And I've also looked around and seen one of the few remaining bits of social glue holding our communities together and picking up the pieces , from communities that have often turned on themselves quite destructively ,happens to be my old enemy . Certainly not the lefties .Now an adversary very much chastened in my experience . And I now take a quite different attitude .
Because socialism without the people is just a fucking book . And nobody else seems to be helping the people . Not anywhere I've been in this shithole of a country .

 

[8den]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but can you provide examples of "lefties" trying to replace the church's role in our society.

Furthermore exactly how did the church stop the degenerate of communities, and how exactly is the situation in Ireland worse now than a generation ago, and if it is, how exactly is it "lefties" fault?

If you are discussing this from a economic point of view I'll agree with you, the country is in a worse state than it was 10, or 15 years ago, but thats due dire financial mismanagement by our very conservative right wing governments, you cannot blame "lefties" for that. However the Ireland my children are growing up in is a much improved place than I grew up in, and I'd genuinely be curious to know what advantages I had that my children will not have.

 

[starfish]

Well done the people of Ireland.

 

[8den]

I also note casually red has not explained why he thinks gay people should not have the right to get married.

 

[cesare]

I also note casually red has not explained why he thinks gay people should not have the right to get married.

I thought he said it was because gay marriage is a US import like Sex In The City?

 

[Humberto]

Is it not the church as a whole that is implicated despite the papal infalibility which is supposed to bleed down the hierarchy to the abuser?

Or do catholics just harden their church infalibility stance?

 

[8den]

Is it not the church as a whole that is implicated despite the papal infalibility which is supposed to bleed down the hierarchy to the abuser?

Or do catholics just harden their church infalibility stance?

Papal infallibility does not trickle down. The pope is god's spokesperson on earth and is infallible, that is all. Of course certain popes have retracted papal infallibility, and other popes and retracted that retraction. It's pretty confusing. And stupid.

 

[Humberto]

Papal infallibility does not trickle down. The pope is god's spokesperson on earth and is infallible, that is all. Of course certain popes have retracted papal infallibility, and other popes and retracted that retraction. It's pretty confusing. And stupid.

Thats not how the parents of the abused found it

 

[8den]

Thats not how the parents of the abused found it

I'm sorry, I don't follow you.

 

[Humberto]

I'm sorry, I don't follow you.

The church can do no wrong. Watch the doc. In that the infallibility trickles down as logically it would if such a thing were plausible. Thats the reality if not the popes position.

 

[8den]

Thats not Catholic church doctrine.

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "When, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility


I don't need to watch a documentary on the appalling history of the church in Ireland. I am Irish, I've worked with 1 in 4, and the Christian Brother who was my school principal spent 8 years in prison for sexually assaults on children in my school. He was moved from my school when rumours started, and was sent to another school in cork, where he continued to abuse children. He damaged hundreds of lives.

 

[Casually Red]

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but can you provide examples of "lefties" trying to replace the church's role in our society.

Furthermore exactly how did the church stop the degenerate of communities, and how exactly is the situation in Ireland worse now than a generation ago, and if it is, how exactly is it "lefties" fault?

If you are discussing this from a economic point of view I'll agree with you, the country is in a worse state than it was 10, or 15 years ago, but thats due dire financial mismanagement by our very conservative right wing governments, you cannot blame "lefties" for that. However the Ireland my children are growing up in is a much improved place than I grew up in, and I'd genuinely be curious to know what advantages I had that my children will not have.

We're do I start ...not just with the sky high rates of suicide, mental illness, addiction , mindless violence,sexual exploitation ... . Well how about the same young lady who invited me to Dublin last week informing me her sister who's a school teacher has regularly had to separate kids as young as 9 having sex in the primary school she works in . Or my own brother , now a father of 3 daughters, too afraid to send any of them to the local primary because the kids there have a funny little playground game called " rape" .

A fortnight ago in Derry we had a proud working cass community that withstood all sorts for generations coming under sustained attack from its own young people, terrorising families and the elderly in ther homes , burning and smashing people's cars . Hundreds of them , off their heads . Gangs of them smashing windows and then hammering anyone who went out to them . Threatening to burn houses dwn , and attempting it .Until the community had to appeal to armed vigilantes to step in, who had to fire in the air to disperse them . The last time that community had to defended by armed men it was against people in British uniforms . But this was our own young people engaging in some recreation .
Belfasts as bad . Drugs have the country destroyed . Refuse to serve the wrong person or one of their relatives in Dublin or limerick and you'll be shot dead . By scum . People will stab you now as quick as look at you .

When I was a teenager you coud actually walk the streets despite sectarian assassinations, harassment and bombs . It's actually frightening now . You can be beaten to death in your own home by scumbags wandering the streets coked to the eyeballs , as happened to an old mate of mine a couple of years back . It's completely gone to fuck .

But , as youve revealed yourself to be completely oblivious to all this, you live in a nice area by the sounds of it . I'm quite sure your children will have the same advantages as you . But fuck everyone else's seems to be what your saying . Its not just worse in economic terms you tool . Many of these areas were already dirt poor . They still stuck together Through the worst of times, there was still right and wrong . Our society has thoroughly degenerated and atomised . Gone to the dogs . Community is increasingly a thing of the past . Respect, either for yourself or others , has increasingly gone out the window .

 

[Humberto]

Thats not Catholic church doctrine.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility


I don't need to watch a documentary on the appalling history of the church in Ireland. I am Irish, I've worked with 1 in 4, and the Christian Brother who was my school principal spent 8 years in prison for sexually assaults on children in my school. He was moved from my school when rumours started, and was sent to another school in cork, where he continued to abuse children. He damaged hundreds of lives.

Alright mate I can't pretend I know more than you, but if an institution claims its head is infallible then all hell will be let loose

 

[8den]

We're do I start ...not just with the sky high rates of suicide, mental illness, addiction , mindless violence,sexual exploitation ... .

Are you saying these things only began an issue when the church's dominance in Irish life waned? Because I will laugh in your face.

Well how about the same young lady who invited me to Dublin last week informing me her sister who's a school teacher has regularly had to separate kids as young as 9 having sex in the primary school she works in . Or my own brother , now a father of 3 daughters, too afraid to send any of them to the local primary because the kids there have a funny little playground game called " rape" .

What a bizarre strange Daily Mail esque world you live in.

A fortnight ago in Derry we had a proud working cass community that withstood all sorts for generations coming under sustained attack from its own young people, terrorising families and the elderly in ther homes , burning and smashing people's cars . Hundreds of them , off their heads . Gangs of them smashing windows and then hammering anyone who went out to them . Threatening to burn houses dwn , and attempting it .Until the community had to appeal to armed vigilantes to step in, who had to fire in the air to disperse them . The last time that community had to defended by armed men it was against people in British uniforms . But this was our own young people engaging in some recreation .
Belfasts as bad . Drugs have the country destroyed . Refuse to serve the wrong person or one of their relatives in Dublin or limerick and you'll be shot dead . By scum . People will stab you now as quick as look at you .

When I was a teenager you coud actually walk the streets despite sectarian assassinations, harassment and bombs . It's actually frightening now . You can be beaten to death in your own home by scumbags wandering the streets coked to the eyeballs , as happened to an old mate of mine a couple of years back . It's completely gone to fuck .

But , as youve revealed yourself to be completely oblivious to all this, you live in a nice area by the sounds of it . I'm quite sure your children will have the same advantages as you . But fuck everyone else's seems to be what your saying . Its not just worse in economic terms you tool . Many of these areas were already dirt poor . They still stuck together Through the worst of times, there was still right and wrong . Our society has thoroughly degenerated and atomised . Gone to the dogs . Community is increasingly a thing of the past . Respect, either for yourself or others , has increasingly gone out the window .

Leaving aside the lurid post apocalyptical dystopia nonsense in the above. Do you really think the only thing that stops Irish people from this violent escape from Derry level nonsense was the Catholic Church? That the only thing stopping Ireland from descending into barbarisms was thin black line of nuns and priests, who when they weren't raping children were making unwed mothers their slaves?

You've mentioned Dublin and Limerick. Unfortunately these are the two cities I know really well in Ireland, and both of them are hugely improved from when I grew up. Or are you saying violent crime has increased in these cities in the past 20 years? (I'll give you a hint, it's decreased and I have a little thing called statistics to back me up)

 

[8den]

Alright mate I can't pretend I know more than you, but if an institution claims its head is infallible then all hell will be let loose

I don't dispute this. And papal infalliabilty is a joke. Look at popes who flat out contradict the preaching and edicts of their predecessors? How can one pope be infallible when he says one thing, and the next pope in line says he was wrong?

 

[SpookyFrank]

A fortnight ago in Derry we had a proud working cass community that withstood all sorts for generations coming under sustained attack from its own young people, terrorising families and the elderly in ther homes , burning and smashing people's cars . Hundreds of them , off their heads . Gangs of them smashing windows and then hammering anyone who went out to them . Threatening to burn houses dwn , and attempting it .Until the community had to appeal to armed vigilantes to step in, who had to fire in the air to disperse them . The last time that community had to defended by armed men it was against people in British uniforms . But this was our own young people engaging in some recreation .

Is this some kid of Batman/IRA crossover fan fiction or what?

 

[SpookyFrank]

When I was a teenager you could actually walk the streets despite sectarian assassinations, harassment and bombs .

A definite contender for my favourite sentence ever written.

 

[LiamO]

You've mentioned Dublin and Limerick. Unfortunately these are the two cities I know really well in Ireland, and both of them are hugely improved from when I grew up.

By what measure? Do people feel safer? More secure? Happier?

I have never met a single person from working class areas of these two cities who thinks that they are better now. Not one. Ever.

Just like people in the old industrial heartlands of britain, most people I know think that the price paid by communities for embracing the neo-liberal dogma has been way too high.

Or are you saying violent crime has increased in these cities in the past 20 years? (I'll give you a hint, it's decreased and I have a little thing called statistics to back me up)

Lies, damned lies and statistics?

Try telling that to the people who live on the estates - or even the ones who police them. They would laugh in your face.

 

[LiamO]

A definite contender for my favourite sentence ever written.

Really?

Whilst it could have been worded better, what CR wrote contains an essential - and very disturbing - truth. People did feel safer, more secure back in the 70's and 80's. At least the perceived threat came from outside their own communities, not from within it.

And it is - by all accounts - even worse in loyalist communities.

 

[8den]

By what measure? Do people feel safer? More secure? Happier?

I have never met a single person from working class areas of these two cities who thinks that they are better now. Not one. Ever.

Just like people in the old industrial heartlands of britain, most people I know think that the price paid by communities for embracing the neo-liberal dogma has been way too high.




Lies, damned lies and statistics?

Try telling that to the people who live on the estates - or even the ones who police them. They would laugh in your face.

So we have statistics v my mate down the pub.

Estates like Ballymun and Ballyfermot are in a far better state now than in the 80s/90s. Child poverty has decreased.

 

[frogwoman]

Thats probably true tbh but its got nothing to do with gay marriage.

 

[8den]

I agree but Casually Red, like most people arguing against the No vote, wants to make the discussion about anything other than gay marriage (ie surrogacy, adoption, the role of the church in Irish society)

 

[LiamO]

So we have statistics v my mate down the pub.

Estates like Ballymun and Ballyfermot are in a far better state now than in the 80s/90s. Child poverty has decreased.

Or your 'statistics' Vs the opinions of those who live there?

Find me a resident, a social worker, a community worker, a drugs worker or even a Garda who agrees with you.

Estates like Ballymun and Ballyfermot are in a far better state now than in the 80s/90s

By what measure?

Child poverty has decreased.

By what measure?