Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
- Thread starter mojo pixy
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danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
In every way. But the most important way is class.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I know we're talking about the.UK but this is what Justin Trudeau has just announced for Canada:
ca.finance.yahoo.com
Justin Trudeau announces tighter rules for low-wage temporary foreign workers
Economy no longer needs as many low-wage workers, says Prime Minister
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
To be fair on Edie 'our own' was in scare quotes. But using 'our own' to mean British people is still problematic for anyone with an internationalist and pro working class viewpoint. The fact that 'look after our own' is often used as a far right nationalist and often racist dog whistle is also a problem, even though Edie may not have been using it with that intention.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
i would say the same, but for different reasons to most "patriots".
i love england, tbh, and things that are largely unique (though not inherent or determined, an important difference) to it.
most people love their country. there's nothing wrong with it. irrational? perhaps, but i know my affection for this shit hole is not entirely irrational. there are things about it that i love, simple as that. it's people, in the main. they amuse me no end. i love our passive aggressive politeness that you encounter. i like that we fall on the quiter side of introversion etc. The humour. the countryside that never faills to fill me with wonder and beauty. The list goes on. just like spain is different to say Thailand, we are different. and i like the differences, i like differences cultural/social based on nations, it's what makes the world interesting, the hodge podge make up that is the england. then tehre are reasons like free libraries, the NHS, our universities, our writers, the facr that there is still somewhat a "safety net", the fact that my dad has a free bus pass, etc etc.
i was lucky to have been born here.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I doubt she used it with that intention. If she'd used it with that intention it would have opened up a whole can of worms re the NHS for a start. Unlikely.
In every way doesn’t answer. You’re just saying it as a weird politically correct flex. You are not culture blind and nor are Syrians.
And I feel exactly the same mate.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Not in #1022, tbf
maomao
普費斯
It's my lack of culture blindness that highlights the difference between me and Jacob Rees Mogh.
Cid
Proper break this time
Culture isn't purely represented in region though is it? Arguably in the modern world it's not even primarily located in region.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Of course, in and of itself, that's not racist and I'm not seeing anyone suggest otherwise. But talking about "only looking after our own, immigrants flocking here to take our jobs, lower our wages and then send the loot back home" does all sound very much like the sort of nonsense we do hear from racists. Don't think you can come on here spout that shite and get away without getting called out on it.
I’m gonna step out of this debate for a while. There’s been some good points made, especially by kabbes and littlebabyjesus
I think the economic argument for immigration can and has been made well.
The “culture blind” stuff though, which seems to me to completely ignore the social science that kabbes presents so brilliantly, is just daft. Probably beyond daft and dangerous. It’s like people saying they “don’t see race”.
I think the economic argument for immigration can and has been made well.
The “culture blind” stuff though, which seems to me to completely ignore the social science that kabbes presents so brilliantly, is just daft. Probably beyond daft and dangerous. It’s like people saying they “don’t see race”.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
probably not. You can probably analyse think through "culture" until it barely means anything at all, a neurological process even. It's something you can reduce down or expand out, but most people, no matter what government, no matter economic system, throughout history, have a certain wide view of the country they were born in, and a kind of shared knowledge of it. I somewhat know england far far far more than any other country - and I don't despise it. infact, as said, there's a lot i love. culture, practices, people, they all in form that "knowledge".
maomao
普費斯
I think it's simplistic and wrong to cut the culture slice at the national border. I'm more likely to eat a falafel than whatever's on Mogg's plate at teatime. I have more in common with my immigrant wife than Boris fucking Johnson.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
A “flex”? What?
I literally don’t feel British. I wouldn’t describe myself as British. I’m not patriotic. I don’t give a fuck about any of the institutions of this nation-state.
I’m not claiming to be “culture blind”. Quite the opposite. Culture is fundamental to being human. Culture is what humans do.
But culturally and in every other way I have so much more in common with my Syrian musician friend than I do with JRM. I wouldn’t know how to begin a conversation with Mogg. But with Ayman, I can discuss music, food, life. In a room with Mogg, I’d be making excuses to leave as soon as I could.
This isn’t a “flex”. It’s literally my life. Don’t pretend you know what’s in my head.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
You’re making stuff up. Nobody has said “they don’t see race”. Any more than anyone argued in favour of open borders when you brought that up.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
That's not what Edie said though. You've added stuff to her words.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
by hating it, haven't you also put a ring around it and definited it? if it's something you hate, then therefore it is a "thing?" is it okay to hate the cultural and institutional make up of a nation, but not love it? both imply a "thing" in the first place.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Take the time to go back and read the last few pages and you will see that they are indeed the words Edie used, more than that, the words that they said they were proud to stand by. FWIW, I think stepping away from the thread for a while might be a very good idea. I hope they have some chance to reflect on the words they use to express their concerns.
Cid
Proper break this time
I read through a fair bit of what kabbes posted, it's certainly interesting and I think relevant but hasn't really been fully unpacked on this thread. There is a lot there, and it's not necessarily as easily generalised as some are assuming. Or at least not in the way they are assuming.
e2a: not sure we're exactly talking about that use of 'culture' in this instance; see e.g Danny above, more thinking about personal experiences of it.
e2a: not sure we're exactly talking about that use of 'culture' in this instance; see e.g Danny above, more thinking about personal experiences of it.
BigMoaner
What A Load of Old Bollocks
just trying to flesh out the idea whether nations should definie themselves as nations, that people should or shouldn't identify with their nationality.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
This is a term of your own. It’s made me really angry because it bears absolutely no relation to anything I’ve said or believe. In fact it’s the direct opposite to what I love about humans: their cultures.
I’m going to have to put you and this thread on ignore in case I say something I regret. I’m literally seeing red.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
She didn't say " only looking after our own", and she didnt mention anyone " flocking" here. You've added those emotive words yourself.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It's baiting for doctorate info Danny, don't fall for it.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
At what stage does someone become a person of your country?
That's where the statement doesn't make much sense to me. Is it just people born here? My workmates who have lived here for 20+ years? My partner's friend who moved here in 2015 when it was still possible? My Mum's parents who moved here from Ireland? The client who I supported with their health needs who moved here from another country earlier in the year? The client that I supported with their alcohol intake that was born here?
I like to think that I care about people in the country that I reside in regardless of where they fit in relation to ideas of nationality.
Cid
Proper break this time
You're overextending what danny said. e.g he doesn't actually say hate there. I've grown more and more ambivalent about the institutions and claimed cultural artefacts of this country as I get older and understand them more. I still think it's... important... in many ways. But as much in the way that we construct legitimising myths as anything else. It won't necessarily reflect personal experiences of 'culture'. I dunno, it's far too much to get into really - there are a vast number of interacting valances here.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
As I have a partner who is an immigrant I find it offensive when this kind of thing is said
I also work and have friends who live in this country who " aren't my own".
And I do my best to look after them regardless of where they are from
I'm posting this as someone whose born in this country.
I also work and have friends who live in this country who " aren't my own".
And I do my best to look after them regardless of where they are from
I'm posting this as someone whose born in this country.
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