Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

Sorry but I do have done and do stuff in my local community..

This reads as iif your implying I don't do anything.
I'm was not intending to imply that. From what's you've posted in the past I know you are involved in things. But all too often support becomes a value, sharing tweets, etc. And starting a discussion about wants tends to that perspective.
 
What I was trying to do was, instead of shouting someone is a fascist.. putting an alternative that is more humane than the present one.

That's now caused the same amount of trouble.

Btw Edie doesn't hold back on opinions on lefties. So it's fair to ask after pages what theirs is.
 
Last edited:
Other, more imaginative answers are available :thumbs:

But to follow that logic, if I'm opposed to open borders and someone asks me what I'd like to see instead, it'd be valid to say nothing - close the borders completely.
I think it's a bad analogy tbh. You can support the same objectives as JSO without agreeing with their tactics.

Opposing open borders means not supporting a set of objectives regardless of any tactics used to further them.
 
I'm was not intending to imply that. From what's you've posted in the past I know you are involved in things. But all too often support becomes a value, sharing tweets, etc. And starting a discussion about wants tends to that perspective.

Sharing tweets?

What?

I don't do so much now but in past I've been tenants rep dealing with council on behalf of tenants.

I do a little as someone part of a group dealing with council over a service it runs. Lobbying for it etc

Secondly back in the real world people don't have a lot of time after working and trying to keep their heads above water to do a lot.

Using "tweets" is one way for time strapped people.

I know I'm back sliding reformist. Been told that before. But in practice that's what I do.
 
What I was trying to do was, instead of shouting someone is a fascist.. putting an alternative that is more humane than the present one.

That's now caused the same amount of trouble.

Btw Edie doesn't hold back on opinions on lefties. So it's fair to ask after pages what theirs is.
I agree that, given their repeated rejection of open borders, it is fair to invite Edie to offer their preferred view of how migration should be managed. Particularly so, based on their contributions to previous discussions about borders that have included troubling comments such as:
If we opened our borders then understandably a lot of workers from poorer countries will flock here, driving down wages, putting English people out of work and claiming benefits. Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country. How the fuck is any of that in the working class interest? It ain't.
 
My attitude to immigration is more the I'm not bothered.

I'm pretty sure some of the people I've worked with haven't had proper visas. Overstayed etc.

I don't think a lot of people have this hardline on immigration that our political leaders in Labour and Tory party think people have. That is in my inner London area. A bubble I know. But a Labour voting one.

Not that , as is understandable, people have a strong ideological view on immigration. Its more one based on this person I know or work with is ok so why can't they stay

Seems to me ( and I know this is reformist) there is a space to say more ( and the dreaded word) liberal immigration policies. Labour could do this. It's not saying no immigration controls. Its saying give people routes to come here and regularise themselves.

And looks to me that we can't even have this.
 
The thing is, wages have been stagnating for years, and that isn't because of immigration. If you're a teacher or a lecturer in FE and HE, your wages have barely increased for 14-18 years (in some cases they've actually decreased), while the cost of living spirals ever upwards. The salaries of FE college principals and VC's have increased to stupid levels, while those at the chalk face are forced to work more than one job, because of a combination of wage stagnation and increasing casualisation.
 
Last edited:
Perhaps because it is not a useful question.

What do I want? Well for the workers of the world to seize the means of production and institute councils that could resolve questions about migration. But so what? How is concentrating, and aligning people, on the basis of "wants" useful to your political ends?
You say you don't support immigration controls but what does that mean? That you are organising against them? Or simply that you want no controls on immigration?

There are people in the trades council I'm delegated to that spend time, effort and money on organising for better conditions for migrants, campaigning for changes to the laws, especially around working, etc but who would not want no controls on immigration.

The question "Do you want controls on immigration or not?", is no less full of political assumptions than when YouGov ask "Do you believe the level of immigration is too high/low?". I don't consider focusing on wants, or values, sensible, but rather the opposite - it accepts the assumptions of liberalism. One might as well ask, what one would do if a genie appeared and suddenly granted one three political wishes.

Support is fundamentally a material thing, it is based on and requires people organising and taking action.
I agree with that.

However I do want to reassure Gramsci that I’m not reading that, or your subsequent mention of tweeting, as an attack on him.

Basically what’s happening is we’re all looking at different parts of the elephant. I’ve focused on the global picture, pointing out that no nation-state is operating outside of global conditions of climate change, environmental depletion, global capitalism, geopolitics, etc. And that the UK border bureaucracy on its own is irrelevant to that.

You’re focusing on what action is available to activists here and now in our communities, correctly saying it doesn’t much matter how we’d like the world to be.

Whereas Gramsci is focusing on answering a question that was put to him, and I’m reading you as saying he’s accepting the terms of the question. Which is actually what is expected of all of us by politicians, the media, opinion poll setters, and so on. This isn’t to say he doesn’t also do what is available to activists. We are all caught somewhere in this net, since we are all part of the society we live in.

We don’t need to see ourselves on different sides just because we’re describing a different aspect of the elephant.
 
I'm pretty sure some of the people I've worked with haven't had proper visas. Overstayed etc.
I remember working as a courier controller twenty years ago and there being an explicit 'don't send Brazilian riders to Heathrow' rule because loads of them didn't have papers. I can't recall anyone in the office finding that shocking or anything. Things have tightened up a little since then I think.
 
I remember working as a courier controller twenty years ago and there being an explicit 'don't send Brazilian riders to Heathrow' rule because loads of them didn't have papers. I can't recall anyone in the office finding that shocking or anything. Things have tightened up a little since then I think.

Basically the only time one got deported is if for example you got drunk and had fight and then police turned up.

Ie got under the radar of the authorities. Police arrest you and then it comes out you have no visa. Or overstayed.

Brazilians had whole network of contacts if they came to London to help them out.

As you say everyone knew this kind of thing was going on. The world didn't fall in.

Some regularised themselves by in end getting EU citizenship. Some had Italian grandparents who emigrated to Brazil and Italy allows descendants to get dual Brazilian and Italian citizenship.
 
Basically the only time one got deported is if for example you got drunk and had fight and then police turned up.
There was an office story that a motorbike courier had been deported straight from Heathrow when doing a job there but it's too long ago for me to remember the details or vouch for its accuracy. One of those things that you believe for a couple of decades and end up questioning when you retell it.
 
I agree that, given their repeated rejection of open borders, it is fair to invite Edie to offer their preferred view of how migration should be managed. Particularly so, based on their contributions to previous discussions about borders that have included troubling comments such as:
I've been off for a week so just catching up however I wondered if you had , in my absence, come up with any more examples that would expand your earlier comments that

"The reason that the main parties, who govern in the interests of globalised capital, promote immigration is to accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth."

or commented on how open borders might either assist or hinder this process?
 
I remember working as a courier controller twenty years ago and there being an explicit 'don't send Brazilian riders to Heathrow' rule because loads of them didn't have papers. I can't recall anyone in the office finding that shocking or anything. Things have tightened up a little since then I think.

Tightened up big time.

Without getting dewy eyed and nostalgic about the past one of the side effects of increased immigration controls is the authorities using it to stick their noses into peoples every day life in more intrusive way.

And to make people snitch under pain of being fined.
 
Last edited:
I've been off for a week so just catching up however I wondered if you had , in my absence, come up with any more examples that would expand your earlier comments that

"The reason that the main parties, who govern in the interests of globalised capital, promote immigration is to accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth."

or commented on how open borders might either assist or hinder this process?
I suppose that's a fair question, but I genuinely don't feel confident that I'd be able to come up with actual examples. But, more generally, (and in more straightforward language), last year in launching their Migrant workers pledge, the TUC said:

Kate Bell, Assistant General Secretary at the TUC, said:​

“No matter your background, everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity at work. This government has created a system where exploitation of migrant workers is rampant. From unpaid wages, to debt bondage and forced labour, to being sacked without notice – migrant workers are routinely treated appallingly by their employers, who are too often allowed to get away scot-free.

“The government has totally failed to protect migrant workers from exploitative employers. That’s why the TUC will continue to demand action from government and stand up for migrant workers.”

As to how an open borders policy might assist or hinder such exploitation, I suppose you'd first have to have some idea of how it might generally impact on net migration of workers and of net migrations of workers in specific sectors?
 
I think it's a bad analogy tbh. You can support the same objectives as JSO without agreeing with their tactics.

Opposing open borders means not supporting a set of objectives regardless of any tactics used to further them.

I think you're tying yourself up in knots tbh, I certainly don't understand the distinction you're trying to make. I think you'd be better off just admitting that you don't like my comparison because it makes you feel a bit hypocritical :D

(Don't worry I'm not serious, I know we're all super consistent and reasonable people around here)

But anyway it's off topic and I only meant it as a shruggy aside, we don't need to spend all day on it.
 
I suppose that's a fair question, but I genuinely don't feel confident that I'd be able to come up with actual examples. But, more generally, (and in more straightforward language), last year in launching their Migrant workers pledge, the TUC said:



As to how an open borders policy might assist or hinder such exploitation, I suppose you'd first have to have some idea of how it might generally impact on net migration of workers and of net migrations of workers in specific sectors?
The TUC’s principle of of having a migrant workers pledge is of course welcome .Whether or not it means anything is of course a different matter . There are some trade unions who have done some very good work in this area.

However if as you say that it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’ what is your suggested strategy to counter this ?
 
The problem with discussing “concerns about immigration” from a left wing perspective is that it involves the immediate assumption that immigration itself is a concern or a problem - and this already frames the debate in a way which benefits the right wing, and allows them to stir up fear.

Objectively, immigration is simply a fact of life amongst migratory species - to say it is a “problem” is like saying wind is a problem, or the tides.

That said, it is necessary for the left to have a line on the issue. Whether we like it or not, it has become or perhaps has always been a primary concern for many people. From a working class perspective, I do not know if these fears are more prevalent amongst this class than in the other classes, but I do know that many working class people have strong concerns about immigration, rightly or wrongly. Obviously, the left wing is traditionally rooted in a working class base, so again, it seems foolish for the left to simply ignore this issue in terms of debate, as sometimes seems to be the case. Not only is this dismissive of the concerns of working class people, but strategically it surrenders the issue to the right.

I think the thing that the left misses is that some forms of immigration, if not a problem in themselves, are at least symptomatic of a problem or problems, and many people sense this.

The first problem that immigration is symptomatic of is simply the huge inequality that is maintained by global capitalism. As long as there are parts of the world in which opportunity and wealth is far more freely available than in others, then people will desire to move. Globally, the fact that there are so many places where people are forced to migrate, because of war or famine or both, is a serious problem. Of course, in this problem, the migrants are the victims - a fact which the right chooses to ignore or invert.

The other problem which I think many people correctly sense is not so much about immigration as about population. Obviously, as with Malthus, fears about population growth can be unfounded and can be used to demonise sections of society. But it is also true that capitalist nations do benefit from constantly growing population. In fact, under the current model, they rely upon it to generate ever increasing GDP. Clearly, this is environmentally unsustainable, and people instinctively know this.

I think the immigration issue ends when we as a society learn to distribute wealth and resources with a stable or even declining global population.

Finally, and I’m just thinking aloud at this point, but I do sometimes wonder if people simply have a right to decide exactly how dense they wish their local population to be - especially in places with limited space, such as islands. Qualitatively, the amount of people living in close quarters to you does affect your life - in terms of space, in terms of pollution, in terms of social environment. Personally, I enjoy living in dense urban environments, but many may not.

These are what I think could be deemed the legitimate “concerns” with regards to immigration, whilst trying to think charitably towards those with concerns. Of course, many on the right may be arguing in bad faith. Also of course, it benefits the capitalistic class to sow enmity amongst the working class, and to blame the material inequity inherent in state capitalism on something as simple as immigration. But I still think the left needs to talk about immigration, and to talk about the global problems which necessitate it, and to accept that there are indeed problems - but to identify that these problems are based on global inequality and the need for infinite growth.

TLDR i have no solutions
 
Last edited:
However if as you say that it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’ what is your suggested strategy to counter this ?
I think ridding the world of neoliberal capitalism is a rather bigger question than this specific immigration thread allows, don't you? I suspect that we might derail the thread significantly if we explore the necessary revolution. Maybe you could kick off a new, dedicated thread about strategies required to counter neoliberalism?

e2a: the point of including the Kate Bell quote was to show that it's not just me saying that it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’.
 
Last edited:
I think you're tying yourself up in knots tbh, I certainly don't understand the distinction you're trying to make. I think you'd be better off just admitting that you don't like my comparison because it makes you feel a bit hypocritical :D

(Don't worry I'm not serious, I know we're all super consistent and reasonable people around here)

But anyway it's off topic and I only meant it as a shruggy aside, we don't need to spend all day on it.
I won't dwell either, but I don't think the distinction is so hard. Replace JSO with the IRA. You can support the reunification of Ireland without supporting the IRA. But if you oppose the idea of open borders, you oppose not only any tactics that might be used to advance that cause but also the cause itself. So it's quite different really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PTK
Sounds like absolute lunacy to me, a recipe for disaster, perhaps not in your lifetime but eventually.
I said for me, personally, in my privileged position open borders would likely have limited impact. I think it would be a disaster for people in more precarious positions.
I agree that, given their repeated rejection of open borders, it is fair to invite Edie to offer their preferred view of how migration should be managed. Particularly so, based on their contributions to previous discussions about borders that have included troubling comments such as:
I stand by that ‘troubling comment’. I think the costs and benefits of immigration are not equally spread across society. And increased immigration or even open borders does pose a threat to wages, working conditions, access to housing and social security. I don’t think people are being stupid or racist to think that or be concerned about it. What is stupid and racist is blaming immigrants and burning mosques and asylum centres.
Tightened up big time.

Without getting dewy eyed and nostalgic about the past one of the side effects of increased immigration controls is the authorities using it to stick their noses into peoples every day life in more intrusive way.

And to make people snitch under pain of being fined.
As for actions speaking louder than words I live by my values. I’ve provided on the ground, on my knees, in tents medical care to refugees in Calais. And I’ve actively opposed the state’s attempt to limit medical care according to Nationality or Citizenship because I think that’s morally wrong. I did that by saying to my receptionist (who is meant to ask every patient in OP clinic how long they have lived in the UK) that I don’t think that question has any bearing on medical care and from birth can be the default answer. Until very recently I worked in Bradford and I cared for new immigrants and asylum seekers every working day.

None of that has any bearing on whether or not immigration controls are necessary to protect the working class. And I still think the working class argument for open borders is like turkeys voting for Christmas.
 
I think ridding the world of neoliberal capitalism is a rather bigger question than this specific immigration thread allows, don't you? I suspect that we might derail the thread significantly if we explore the necessary revolution. Maybe you could kick off a new, dedicated thread about strategies required to counter neoliberalism?

e2a: the point of including the Kate Bell quote was to show that it's not just me saying that it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’.
I wasn't suggesting that you had invented it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’.or that it was only attributable to you. If we start with that statement as a 'fact' and then say the only solution is ridding the world of neo liberal capitalism how is the argument in favour of open borders or against immigration controls going to be set out? I'm not sure we need a new thread for that tbh.
 
I wasn't suggesting that you had invented it’s the capitalist class who want to use immigration to ‘accelerate anti-worker supply side reforms, maintain downward pressure on wages, substitute for investment and promote economic growth’.or that it was only attributable to you. If we start with that statement as a 'fact' and then say the only solution is ridding the world of neo liberal capitalism how is the argument in favour of open borders or against immigration controls going to be set out? I'm not sure we need a new thread for that tbh.
Oh, that's good. It's just that when you again pressed for examples it sounded like this sort of analysis was new to you or that you didn't really believe that was why neoliberal capital insisted on net in-migration. tbh, I don't really think any of what I have been saying necessarily constitutes (normative) argument in favour of open borders, I was merely going over what I took to be (positive) truths about the capitalist drivers of net in-migration. Completely up to you about starting a new thread.
 
I stand by that ‘troubling comment’. I think the costs and benefits of immigration are not equally spread across society. And increased immigration or even open borders does pose a threat to wages, working conditions, access to housing and social security. I don’t think people are being stupid or racist to think that or be concerned about it. What is stupid and racist is blaming immigrants and burning mosques and asylum centres.
Agree with that last point, but I'm quite surprised to see you stand by the comments that precede it.
If we opened our borders then understandably a lot of workers from poorer countries will flock here, driving down wages, putting English people out of work and claiming benefits. Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country. How the fuck is any of that in the working class interest? It ain't.
I'm not aware of any significant research that backs the racist adjacent claim that "workers from poorer countries flocking here put English people out of work and claiming benefits". This basic 'lump of labour' fallacy has long been peddled by the far-right as justification for their anti-immigrant stance. Nor am I aware of any credible evidence that "Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country"; where are you getting these ideas from?
 
Agree with that last point, but I'm quite surprised to see you stand by the comments that precede it.

I'm not aware of any significant research that backs the racist adjacent claim that "workers from poorer countries flocking here put English people out of work and claiming benefits". This basic 'lump of labour' fallacy has long been peddled by the far-right as justification for their anti-immigrant stance. Nor am I aware of any credible evidence that "Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country"; where are you getting these ideas from?
It’s not a racist adjacent claim- whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean. It’s common bloody sense that immigrants want to support the folks left back home. And good on them!

Migrant remittances now make up the largest source of income for many developing countries.

And maybe that’s a good thing. Globally. Is it a good thing locally? I don’t know!
 
I would say that remittances from the global north to the global south are a good thing, certainly.

Locally, such matters are complex, no? Jobs aren't zero sum. A person coming to the UK to work isn't really 'taking a job away from' someone who already lives here. They're doing a job whose value expands the economy, potentially creating other jobs elsewhere. And yes, a part of that value is sent abroad. Good. Immigrants who are also supporting family back home are likely to be highly motivated to work. And they're unlikely to be entitled to much in the way of benefits, at least when they first arrive. After they have been here a while, they'll be entitled to those benefits their taxes pay for, like anybody else.

While there are certainly capitalist drivers for migration to provide willing and potentially cheaper workers, it's also a fallacy to think that there would be loads more jobs for people if immigration were reduced. It just doesn't work like that. Shrink the economy and you shrink the number of jobs.
 
I think a lot of the problem, not just regarding immigration, but regarding discourse in general, is the growth in people having a strong opinion based on emotions, but few or no facts.

A family member, who reads the Daily Mail, really believes in "two tier" policing. When I pointed out that the reason the fash get arrested in large numbers is because they throw bricks at police and try to murder asylum seekers, whereas pro-Palestinian marches, which are much bigger in number, largely pass off with little incident, she remains streadfast in her belief because "they" are "allowed" to fly the Palestinian flag, but "our" flag is "banned."

I fear this is a tendency likely to continue.
 
It’s not a racist adjacent claim- whatever the fuck that’s supposed to mean. It’s common bloody sense that immigrants want to support the folks left back home. And good on them!

Migrant remittances now make up the largest source of income for many developing countries.

And maybe that’s a good thing. Globally. Is it a good thing locally? I don’t know!
Estimated total net remittances of 0.4% of UK GDP in 2018 does not support your claim that “most of the money they make will be sent home”. I just don’t know why you think these right wing talking points have any basis in reality.
 
Also the idea that economic migrants arriving in the UK are somehow a threat to the social security of those already here is an odd one. What benefits exactly are said arrivals taking? Whatever the arguments about driving down wages, which do have some merit but also exist in a wider context of a wider struggle (wages in sectors not dominated by immigrant workers have also gone down), economic migrants do work, often long hours and often performing essential services. They contribute hugely. They're not a net drain that threatens social security.

And it's worth repeating that economic migrants of various kinds vastly outnumber refugees (allowing for the fact that the distinction between the two isn't always a sharp one). Really, arguments to do with refugees should be kept separate.
 
I would say that remittances from the global north to the global south are a good thing, certainly.

Locally, such matters are complex, no? Jobs aren't zero sum. A person coming to the UK to work isn't really 'taking a job away from' someone who already lives here. They're doing a job whose value expands the economy, potentially creating other jobs elsewhere. And yes, a part of that value is sent abroad. Good. Immigrants who are also supporting family back home are likely to be highly motivated to work. And they're unlikely to be entitled to much in the way of benefits, at least when they first arrive. After they have been here a while, they'll be entitled to those benefits their taxes pay for, like anybody else.

While there are certainly capitalist drivers for migration to provide willing and potentially cheaper workers, it's also a fallacy to think that there would be loads more jobs for people if immigration were reduced. It just doesn't work like that. Shrink the economy and you shrink the number of jobs.
There’s nothing there I disagree with. But sometimes it’s a matter of timing. Over the long term I’m sure you’re right regarding jobs- for the individual going for a particular job maybe not.

Look at resident doctors competing for training numbers with IMGs. The Government has turned on the IMG tap and now British trained doctors are bottlenecked in junior service provision jobs because individually they are facing insanely high competition ratios to progress.

So what- maybe? Do we/ should we care about ‘our own’?
 
I think a lot of the problem, not just regarding immigration, but regarding discourse in general, is the growth in people having a strong opinion based on emotions, but few or no facts.

A family member, who reads the Daily Mail, really believes in "two tier" policing. When I pointed out that the reason the fash get arrested in large numbers is because they throw bricks at police and try to murder asylum seekers, whereas pro-Palestinian marches, which are much bigger in number, largely pass off with little incident, she remains streadfast in her belief because "they" are "allowed" to fly the Palestinian flag, but "our" flag is "banned."

I fear this is a tendency likely to continue.
Yes, facts are important in countering unsubstantiated, racist adjacent claims.

In fact, in 2018 the UK was only 85th out of 117 countries for which data are available according to the share of GDP that remittances accounted for. This means that the UK remits less, as a share of its GDP, than most other countries in the world, so remittance outflows are likely to have a limited impact on its overall growth, especially in light of the positive impacts immigrants have on the UK’s economic development (Boubtane et al. 2016).
Source
 
Back
Top Bottom