In every way. But the most important way is class.In what way are you more in common Danny?
i would say the same, but for different reasons to most "patriots".I am a patriot. I care about the people of my country. I see no shame in that. And I reject the assertion that it’s racist.
I doubt she used it with that intention. If she'd used it with that intention it would have opened up a whole can of worms re the NHS for a start. Unlikely.To be fair on Edie 'our own' was in scare quotes. But using 'our own' to mean British people is still problematic for anyone with an internationalist and pro working class viewpoint. The fact that 'look after our own' is often used as a far right nationalist and often racist dog whistle is also a problem, even though Edie may not have been using it with that intention.
In every way doesn’t answer. You’re just saying it as a weird politically correct flex. You are not culture blind and nor are Syrians.In every way. But the most important way is class.
And I feel exactly the same mate.i would say the same, but for different reasons to most "patriots".
i love england, tbh, and things that are largely unique (though not inherent or determined, an important difference) to it.
most people love their country. there's nothing wrong with it. irrational? perhaps, but i know my affection for this shit hole is not entirely irrational. there are things about it that i love, simple as that. it's people, in the main. they amuse me no end. i love our passive aggressive politeness that you encounter. i like that we fall on the quiter side of introversion etc. The humour. the countryside that never faills to fill me with wonder and beauty. The list goes on. just like spain is different to say Thailand, we are different. and i like the differences, i like differences cultural/social based on nations, it's what makes the world interesting, the hodge podge make up that is the england. then tehre are reasons like free libraries, the NHS, our universities, our writers, the facr that there is still somewhat a "safety net", the fact that my dad has a free bus pass, etc etc.
i was lucky to have been born here.
Not in #1022, tbfTo be fair on Edie 'our own' was in scare quotes. But using 'our own' to mean British people is still problematic for anyone with an internationalist and pro working class viewpoint. The fact that 'look after our own' is often used as a far right nationalist and often racist dog whistle is also a problem, even though Edie may not have been using it with that intention.
It's my lack of culture blindness that highlights the difference between me and Jacob Rees Mogh.In every way doesn’t answer. You’re just saying it as a weird politically correct flex. You are not culture blind and nor are Syrians.
In every way doesn’t answer. You’re just saying it as a weird politically correct flex. You are not culture blind and nor are Syrians.
Of course, in and of itself, that's not racist and I'm not seeing anyone suggest otherwise. But talking about "only looking after our own, immigrants flocking here to take our jobs, lower our wages and then send the loot back home" does all sound very much like the sort of nonsense we do hear from racists. Don't think you can come on here spout that shite and get away without getting called out on it.I am a patriot. I care about the people of my country. I see no shame in that. And I reject the assertion that it’s racist.
Culture isn't purely represented in region though is it? Arguably in the modern world it's not even primarily located in region.
I think it's simplistic and wrong to cut the culture slice at the national border. I'm more likely to eat a falafel than whatever's on Mogg's plate at teatime. I have more in common with my immigrant wife than Boris fucking Johnson.The “culture blind” stuff though, which seems to me to completely ignore the social science that @kabbes presents so brilliantly, is just daft. Probably beyond daft and dangerous. It’s like people saying they “don’t see race”.
A “flex”? What?In every way doesn’t answer. You’re just saying it as a weird politically correct flex. You are not culture blind and nor are Syrians.
You’re making stuff up. Nobody has said “they don’t see race”. Any more than anyone argued in favour of open borders when you brought that up.I’m gonna step out of this debate for a while. There’s been some good points made, especially by kabbes and littlebabyjesus
I think the economic argument for immigration can and has been made well.
The “culture blind” stuff though, which seems to me to completely ignore the social science that kabbes presents so brilliantly, is just daft. Probably beyond daft and dangerous. It’s like people saying they “don’t see race”.
That's not what Edie said though. You've added stuff to her words.Of course, in and of itself, that's not racist and I'm not seeing anyone suggest otherwise. But talking about "only looking after our own, immigrants flocking here to take our jobs, lower our wages and then send the loot back home" does all sound very much like the sort of nonsense we do hear from racists. Don't think you can come on here spout that shite and get away without getting called out on it.
A “flex”? What?
I literally don’t feel British. I wouldn’t describe myself as British. I’m not patriotic. I don’t give a fuck about any of the institutions of this nation-state.
I’m not claiming to be “culture blind”. Quite the opposite. Culture is fundamental to being human. Culture is what humans do.
But culturally and in every other way I have so much more in common with my Syrian musician friend than I do with JRM. I wouldn’t know how to begin a conversation with Mogg. But with Ayman, I can discuss music, food, life. In a room with Mogg, I’d be making excuses to leave as soon as I could.
This isn’t a “flex”. It’s literally my life. Don’t pretend you know what’s in my head.
Take the time to go back and read the last few pages and you will see that they are indeed the words Edie used, more than that, the words that they said they were proud to stand by. FWIW, I think stepping away from the thread for a while might be a very good idea. I hope they have some chance to reflect on the words they use to express their concerns.That's not what Edie said though. You've added stuff to her words.
just trying to flesh out the idea whether nations should definie themselves as nations, that people should or shouldn't identify with their nationality.by hating it, haven't you also put a ring around it and definited it? if it's something you hate, then therefore it is a "thing?" is it okay to hate the cultural and institutional make up of a nation, but not love it? both imply a "thing" in the first place.
This is a term of your own. It’s made me really angry because it bears absolutely no relation to anything I’ve said or believe. In fact it’s the direct opposite to what I love about humans: their cultures.The “culture blind” stuff though
She didn't say " only looking after our own", and she didnt mention anyone " flocking" here. You've added those emotive words yourself.Take the time to go back and read the last few pages and you will see that they are indeed the words Edie used, more than that, the words that they said they were proud to stand by. FWIW, I think stepping away from the thread for a while might be a very good idea. I hope they have some chance to reflect on the words they use to express their concerns.
It's baiting for doctorate info Danny, don't fall for it.This is a term of your own. It’s made me really angry because it bears absolutely no relation to anything I’ve said or believe. In fact it’s the direct opposite to what I love about humans: their cultures.
I’m going to have to put you and this thread on ignore in case I say something I regret. I’m literally seeing red.
OK, if you insist:She didn't say " only looking after our own", and she didnt mention anyone " flocking" here. You've added those emotive words yourself.
#995 If we opened our borders then understandably a lot of workers from poorer countries will flock here, driving down wages, putting English people out of work and claiming benefits. Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country. How the fuck is any of that in the working class interest? It ain't.
#1010 I stand by that ‘troubling comment’
I accept that word "flocking"was not used, it was "flock".#1022 All over the world people look after their own preferentially. Is there a moral problem with that?
At what stage does someone become a person of your country?I am a patriot. I care about the people of my country. I see no shame in that. And I reject the assertion that it’s racist.
by hating it, haven't you also put a ring around it and definited it? if it's something you hate, then therefore it is a "thing?" is it okay to hate the cultural and institutional make up of a nation, but not love it? both imply a "thing" in the first place.
All over the world people look after their own preferentially.