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Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

You're overextending what danny said. e.g he doesn't actually say hate there. I've grown more and more ambivalent about the institutions and claimed cultural artefacts of this country as I get older and understand them more. I still think it's... important... in many ways. But as much in the way that we construct legitimising myths as anything else. It won't necessarily reflect personal experiences of 'culture'. I dunno, it's far too much to get into really - there are a vast number of interacting valances here.

clumsiliy perhaps but i wasn't suggesting he was, i don't think he would be that irrational in an absoloute sense.

the problem lies i think in "nationality" itself, and drawing a ring around it. but people always have done and probably will for the foreseable. in an ideal world, of course, there are no borders.
 
but it's nto an uncommon trap..."we should have no borders, there are not necessary. culture is without borders....oh and btw this country is a shithole" which contradicts itself in the same instance. it's either a thing, i.e a nation, or it isnt, right. And if it is a thing, which is open for criticism as a thing, then it follows logically then that it can be open to be celebrated as a thing, too.
 
I think the problem with the “patriot” angle is that you can’t “solve” immigration in just one country - it is an international problem.

I also think it needs to be considered in tandem with climate change, which will be the main driver of immigration in future.

The “build a wall” mentality, meaning, draw up the bridge, look after those inside, leads to worse conditions internationally. The US, for instance, can probably stand a few degrees of global warming, probably has the land and resources to be self sufficient. But the “patriot” mentality of countries in the global north only looking after their own will cause devastation to much of the global south and ultimately increase the need for human movement.

Isolationism will make things worse. Internationalism is the only fix.
 
clumsiliy perhaps but i wasn't suggesting he was, i don't think he would be that irrational in an absoloute sense.

the problem lies i think in "nationality" itself, and drawing a ring around it. but people always have done and probably will for the foreseable. in an ideal world, of course, there are no borders.
Do you have a house?, if you do...does it have a fence?, would you be ok with anyone rocking up and settling in or would you prefer just those who you invite?
 
I need to elaborate that point...if you own a house it probablytook a load of sweat and tears maybe even blood to get it and keep it, people have the same feelings for a country that they have paid into for decades and can feel put out when others who havnt put the hours in arrive and get instant access to the benefits.
I dont think this is an unreasonable way to think, but of course there are unreasonable ways of approaching it.
 
Isn't it true that some years ago, when Polish builders started coming in fairly large numbers to the UK, that they were so much cheaper than UK builders that they got most of the jobs and loads of UK builders went bust or had to drop their prices to an unsustainable degree?
Was that when the UK was part of the EU? Free movement of people within the EU is very much extant.
I suspect the Polish builders were being paid less...which was a shitty thing to do in fairness.
 
I need to elaborate that point...if you own a house it probablytook a load of sweat and tears maybe even blood to get it and keep it, people have the same feelings for a country that they have paid into for decades and can feel put out when others who havnt put the hours in arrive and get instant access to the benefits.
I dont think this is an unreasonable way to think, but of course there are unreasonable ways of approaching it.

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your focusing on one tiny inconsenquential thing "the benefits" - which, from my experience, are put back into the economy anyway. nearly every migrant i have met and known, which is many, works the same as me, and is not a "drain" in the formular that you are implying.

also - your reducing human life to bare economic exchange. life to bare market value.

if i build a house and i am proud of it, your damn right i would invite people in. why the hoarding mentality? is it because life to you is deep down about money?

there are about 100 different angles to make your point moot.
 
Life: Capitalism as survival of capitalism only. What we think is a threat to our survival as individuals is actually just a threat to capitalism’s survival.

Nothing else at play when living with other humans?

If the game doesn’t carry on exactly as it is we will all die. That’s how the view is when you mix humanity with market exchange.
 
This whole debate is throughly saturated in neoliberal subjectivity on both sides of the fence. The rejection of nationalism is being constructed through the same atomisation of the self that the embrace of it is. To that extent, BigMoaner is spot on when he points out that saying “I don’t feel British” is really the same thing as saying “I do feel British” — they both construct an idea of Britishness, and merely assign it opposite valence as part of the individual ego. And the claiming of peoples outside the UK as “also like me” and “I have more in common with…” is similarly constructed around the idea of the essential individual ego and its actualisation through free expression. But this strong divide between the ego and others in the core of the self, combined with a fuzzy and porous boundary around different sets of kinship groups is not a universal or even particularly common way of defining the self across the globe — in itself, it’s already a pretty Westernised construct. It’s more common to have a sense of self that is fuzzy between the ego and the immediate kinship group (e.g., a common sense of shared future, shared ideals, shared resources) and hard lines between that kinship group and outsiders. (NB: a massive simplification, there, but it’s broadly right). So, ironically, the very claiming that you personally, as an individual, have lots in common with someone in Syria may itself be an expression of the opposite.

The debate also conceives of nationalism as something actively engaged in, and thus subject to conscious choice. But one of the all time greats in psychology, Michael Billig, wrote a book about this in 1995 called Banal nationalism that suggests the opposite. At the time, Billig was very focused on discursive psychology, i.e. how social reality is constructed moment-to-moment through the action of speech and other symbolic representations. The book is a classic so forgive me if I just nick bits of the Wikipedia summary:

Billig devised the concept of 'banal nationalism' to highlight the routine and often unnoticed ways that established nation-states are reproduced from day to day.

Examples of banal nationalism include the use of flags in everyday contexts, sporting events, national songs, symbols on money,[6] popular expressions and turns of phrase, patriotic clubs, the use of implied togetherness in the national press, for example, the use of terms such as the prime minister, the weather, our team, and divisions into "domestic" and "international" news. Many of these symbols are most effective because of their constant repetition, and almost subliminal nature. Banal nationalism is often created via state institutions such as schools.[7]. It can contribute to bottom-up processes of nation-building.[8]

Michael Billig's primary purpose in coining the term was to clearly differentiate everyday, regular nationalism from extremist variants. He argued that the academic and journalistic focus on extreme nationalists, independence movements, and xenophobes in the 1980s and 1990s obscured the strength of contemporary nationalism, by implying that nationalism was a fringe ideology rather than a dominant theme in contemporary political culture

Long story short, I can understand — really, honestly, understand — how the ideological desire to reject the structures of capitalism creates a need to deny the ancillary social structures that support it, like the nation-state. But it just isn’t that straightforward. Even if you manage to define yourself in opposition to it, the act of rejecting it still acknowledges the social reality and importance of it. As Bourdieu pointed out, most of what we understand we are is actually through identifying what we are not. And it’s extremely likely that there are ways in which you still understand your group identity through expression of that nationalism one way or other, because it’s like a fish understanding itself through the water it swims in.
 
Was that when the UK was part of the EU? Free movement of people within the EU is very much extant.
I suspect the Polish builders were being paid less...which was a shitty thing to do in fairness.
They bid for less Most building work in the UK isn't unionised its 'self employed and sub contracted or house hold type improvements. .Most of the Polish emigration to the UK was short term economic migration 3-5 years max. Their reward was gushing references about hard working they were compared to lazy British workers. When the Polish economy started to grow the Polish government offered incentives for skilled workers to return, which they did in large numbers as the wages began to match what was being paid in the UK
 
Living in the south west, if I think about what kind of migration puts the biggest strain on housing, healthcare, infrastructure etc I'm thinking of old, white British people not young families who are going to join in with society and contribute something.

Ironically it's the old who then vote reform, read the daily mail as if every copy came with a free vial of crack, whinge incessantly about immigrants. And of course it's our top-heavy demographic pyramid which means we need steady net immigration to make sure there are enough young folk to keep society running in spite of the endless legions of oxygen thieves actively trying to sabotage it.

How do you define 'old'?

And, how do you define 'endless legions of oxygen thieves'?

I am guessing you mean those over 70, who funny enough voted less for Reform then those aged in their 50s & 60s.

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You have always been a plank, Frank, but I find if scary that such an uneducated potato, with such bigoted views, is a bloody teacher!
 
Isn't it true that some years ago, when Polish builders started coming in fairly large numbers to the UK, that they were so much cheaper than UK builders that they got most of the jobs and loads of UK builders went bust or had to drop their prices to an unsustainable degree?

But is that new?

When I first came to London one of my first jobs was on a building site in West End. 90 percent Irish working on the lump. Guy came around on Fridays with suitcase of brown envelopes.

Me and a few others who were not Irish working for the company.

In fact some of the British people I know had grandparents or great grandparents from Ireland who came here to build the railways in 19c. Still have Irish surnames.

Years later East Europeans replaced the Irish.

In context of London there have been waves of migration to London from abroad and other parts of the country.

The Poles come up as that was the last recent large wave of migration.

Poles came here not purely for economic reasons. The Catholic nationalist party was ruling Poland and some I knew felt that this country was much more liberal minded. Brexit came as a shock to them. My Polish friends were very upset by it.

To add- the Irish were great bunch of lads to work with. Coming from a small town first time Id really met people who were not British people. Did some serious drinking with them in Kilburn. Got on with them fine.
 
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Equating culture with nation-state is IMO misguided. Most nation-states have more than one culture (class and border changes both very important there) while some cultures spread across multiple nation-states. Rejecting the idea or let's say the primacy of a/my nation-state doesn't really require rejecting anything such as I'd call my culture.

However, I'm aware that could be a minority view in polite company.
 
How do you define 'old'?

And, how do you define 'endless legions of oxygen thieves'?

I am guessing you mean those over 70, who funny enough voted less for Reform then those aged in their 50s & 60s.

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You have always been a plank, Frank, but I find if scary that such an uneducated potato, with such bigoted views, is a bloody teacher!

A similar bigoted argument was used in the EU referendum result. Probably set a precedent.
 
Read some of posts of last few pages. But been busy this afternoon and seen it all kicked off now back.

For the record I did not accuse Edie of being racist. Looking back over my posts it all started to kick off when I asked Edie there view on a compromise.

Keep immigration controls but reform them to make them imo more humane. Posts 942 and 943.

I did put them on ignore as they were wasting my time. Un ignored them to see what they have been saying.

Somehow since I've been away doing other things this afternoon its got into who is calling who a racist / patriotism etc.

Which was exactly what I was trying to get away from.

So far in last few pages I haven't heard anything about what Edie thinks should be done in a practical policy way to deal with these concerns. To look after our own as it was put.

If that's the view - that we should look after our own what does that mean in practise?

As what annoys me in particular with the don't call me a racist line is that when asked what do you want in present immigration policy get told they cant possibly have an opinion as they don't know enough.

With all the best will in the world I cant help but read things into that kind of evasion. Makes me think they aren't saying everything

Though the last few pages have been illuminating. As when pushed they know a lot ( whether it is correct or not is not the issue )and aren't shy of saying it.
 
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OK, if you insist:




I accept that word "flocking"was not used, it was "flock".

Surprising how you have to make the effort to go back on dig out what Is there in black and white. Stuff Edie actually posted. Which was being denied.

Thanks for doing that and your other posts.

I mean are some posters here reading a different thread to me?
 
I remember another post here saying ( apologies if I'm altering it to much something) along the lines if we were talking about concerns about Jewish people would that be considered legitimate debate.

And planetgeli did a couple of posts about this.

Looked up a bit more of the history and found this one page article with excerpts from papers and politicians of the time. Including a Jewish socialist group.

And fuck me its almost the same debate now - except its not about Jews now.

The Aliens Act of 1905 ( which even if not explicitly was about East European Jews) was first move away from the relatively open doors policy to the modern immigration policy. So historically its important.


The Socialist Jewish group say immigration concerns are being used when real issue is capitalism.

Complaints from others about competition for labour affecting the indigenous working class.

Plus more specific of period concerns about the weakening of the race. Social Darwinism was respectable then.

Replaced now by concerns about cultural differences. Which are annoyingly vague.

These sentiments come across as modern. Not from over a hundred years ago

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i would say the same, but for different reasons to most "patriots".

i love england, tbh, and things that are largely unique (though not inherent or determined, an important difference) to it.

most people love their country. there's nothing wrong with it. irrational? perhaps, but i know my affection for this shit hole is not entirely irrational. there are things about it that i love, simple as that. it's people, in the main. they amuse me no end. i love our passive aggressive politeness that you encounter. i like that we fall on the quiter side of introversion etc. The humour. the countryside that never faills to fill me with wonder and beauty. The list goes on. just like spain is different to say Thailand, we are different. and i like the differences, i like differences cultural/social based on nations, it's what makes the world interesting, the hodge podge make up that is the england. then tehre are reasons like free libraries, the NHS, our universities, our writers, the facr that there is still somewhat a "safety net", the fact that my dad has a free bus pass, etc etc.

i was lucky to have been born here.
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Other countries in Europe have bus passes and public health services and social security, and in some of them these things are better than they are in the UK. That does not mean that you cannot love them, of course. And these things do not exist in poorer countries. Sure, we can appreciate these things, but is that the same as appreciating the country in which we live? What does it mean to love the country in which we live? Would this country be any less lovable if it did not have these things? Was this country less loveable one hundred years ago?

Does it matter if I love, for example, the British sense of humour? What if I did not love that sense of humour? Should I move to another country? I am not even sure if there is such a thing as “a British sense of humour”. I abhor Mrs Brown’s Boys, and love Mitchell and Webb. Are there people who love both? There perhaps could be British senses of humour, in the plural. On the other hand, I have seen humour from other countries on television that I found funny.

People say that they adore the scenery in Britain. Which scenery? I liked the mountains of Scotland when I travelled through them on a train. How can someone like the mountains of the UK, but not the mountains of other states? Would love of the Grampians by “patriots” in England cease if Scotland were to secede from the United Kingdom?

It is said that the countryside in parts of England is of kind that it not found in other countries. If it were not unique would it be less lovable? I am fond of the South Downs, but I know not if they are unique, and my fondness for them is not informed by the belief that may be unique.

If we have a life partner whom we love very much, does that mean that, given a different turn of events, we would not have found a different partner whom we would love very much?

I think it is normal to like many of the things with which we are familiar.

If I were to be transported instantly to another country, I would find it unsettling, to say the least. I would have no idea what to do. Everything would be strange and even frightening. I imagine that I would adapt. Would I miss living in Britain? Of course. If I were to be transported instantly to another town in Britain, I would also find things unsettling and miss the town in which I had been living.

I have not lived abroad. Living in Britain is all I have known. For me to know how living in Britain compares to living in another country, I would have to have lived for a substantial period in another country. I cannot truly know what it is to live in Britain without having not lived in Britain.

It seems to me that, for a person born in Britain who has always lived in Britain to say that “I love living in Britain” is not unlike saying that “you can’t beat my mother’s cooking”.
 
Other countries in Europe have bus passes and public health services and social security, and in some of them these things are better than they are in the UK. That does not mean that you cannot love them, of course. And these things do not exist in poorer countries. Sure, we can appreciate these things, but is that the same as appreciating the country in which we live? What does it mean to love the country in which we live? Would this country be any less lovable if it did not have these things? Was this country less loveable one hundred years ago?

Does it matter if I love, for example, the British sense of humour? What if I did not love that sense of humour? Should I move to another country? I am not even sure if there is such a thing as “a British sense of humour”. I abhor Mrs Brown’s Boys, and love Mitchell and Webb. Are there people who love both? There perhaps could be British senses of humour, in the plural. On the other hand, I have seen humour from other countries on television that I found funny.

People say that they adore the scenery in Britain. Which scenery? I liked the mountains of Scotland when I travelled through them on a train. How can someone like the mountains of the UK, but not the mountains of other states? Would love of the Grampians by “patriots” in England cease if Scotland were to secede from the United Kingdom?

It is said that the countryside in parts of England is of kind that it not found in other countries. If it were not unique would it be less lovable? I am fond of the South Downs, but I know not if they are unique, and my fondness for them is not informed by the belief that may be unique.

If we have a life partner whom we love very much, does that mean that, given a different turn of events, we would not have found a different partner whom we would love very much?

I think it is normal to like many of the things with which we are familiar.

If I were to be transported instantly to another country, I would find it unsettling, to say the least. I would have no idea what to do. Everything would be strange and even frightening. I imagine that I would adapt. Would I miss living in Britain? Of course. If I were to be transported instantly to another town in Britain, I would also find things unsettling and miss the town in which I had been living.

I have not lived abroad. Living in Britain is all I have known. For me to know how living in Britain compares to living in another country, I would have to have lived for a substantial period in another country. I cannot truly know what it is to live in Britain without having not lived in Britain.

It seems to me that, for a person born in Britain who has always lived in Britain to say that “I love living in Britain” is not unlike saying that “you can’t beat my mother’s cooking”.

The vast majority of the rest of the world is not strange and frightening. A lot of it is a lot more welcoming than here.

We do have quite unique lush green scenery. Because it rains all the fucking time.
 
I don't love Britain. Sometimes I fucking hate it and wished I lived somewhere else.

I am not a patriot, which people can often find hard to understand. When I lived in Cuba, people didn't understand it. But Cuba hasn't ever fucked anyone else over. To be a Cuban patriot isn't to think you're somehow better. In many ways it's the opposite impulse - the assertion that you're as good as anyone else. British patriotism is rarely like that.
 
your focusing on one tiny inconsenquential thing "the benefits" - which, from my experience, are put back into the economy anyway. nearly every migrant i have met and known, which is many, works the same as me, and is not a "drain" in the formular that you are implying.

also - your reducing human life to bare economic exchange. life to bare market value.

if i build a house and i am proud of it, your damn right i would invite people in. why the hoarding mentality? is it because life to you is deep down about money?

there are about 100 different angles to make your point moot.
You are missunderstanding and missrepresenting my point (or have poor comprehension), I didnt say anything about not inviting people in, I made a distinction between Invited and not invited.
The point of view I illustrated exists whether you like it or not and it isnt a reduction of life to bare economic exchange, its far more complicated and incvloves protecting your own social structure, family and beliefs
 
To be a Cuban patriot isn't to think you're somehow better. In many ways it's the opposite impulse - the assertion that you're as good as anyone else. British patriotism is rarely like that.

Yeah the kind of patriotism I've encountered in Britan is overwhelmigly more along the lines of "we're best and better than anyone" than "we're as good as anyone" but here's not the only place that has that IME. France has it. Israel has it.

It's a fine line between one kind and the other.
 
Yeah the kind of patriotism I've encountered in Britan is overwhelmigly more along the lines of "we're best and better than anyone" than "we're as good as anyone" but here's not the only place that has that IME. France has it. Israel has it.

It's a fine line between one kind and the other

China is a slightly threatening mix of feeling like everyone looks down on them and them being better really.
 
tbf _Russ_ your household/national polity analogy is simplistic pish, but I think the 'market value' criticism related to this comment:

people have the same feelings for a country that they have paid into for decades and can feel put out when others who havnt put the hours in arrive and get instant access to the benefits.

Migrants to this country enter the same labour market and "welfare state" that we are all engaged in; it's not their or our fault that capital refuses to pay labour enough to survive without transfer payment subsidy. Anyways, virtually all credible studies demonstrate that migrants have a net positive fiscal impact on the UK as a receiving polity.
 
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