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Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

Agree with all this except the bolded, its the low skilled workers who might lose out very slightly

More recently, Nickell and Salaheen (2015) find that a 10 percentage point (not 10%, as misleadingly claimed by a number of politicians) rise in the immigrant share – that is, larger than that observed over the entirety of the last decade – leads to approximately a 1.5% reduction in wages for native workers in the semi/unskilled service sector. This would mean that immigration since 2004 would have reduced wages for native workers in that sector by about 1%, or put another way, would have depressed annual pay increases by about a penny an hour.
Interesting. I don't have the article that I based my statement on to hand, but it did reach a different conclusion. No doubt based on different assumptions. Shows how difficult it is to work these things out.
 
One of the interesting things living in Glasgow is the way the accent is changing. Listen to recordings of the accent in the 70s. I do sometimes still listen to Billy Connolly records of the time. That’s a working class Glasgow accent of the period. The working class accent in Glasgow today is very different. It’s more nasal to my ears. And the East End accent isn’t the Drumchapel accent now, although in the 70s you couldn’t have heard the difference.

My paternal grandad, from Blantyre, sounded very like recordings of Mick McGahey, the trade union leader. But my dad doesn’t. And I don’t.

Dickens didn’t write the same language as Shakespeare who didn’t speak like Chaucer, who didn’t speak the language of Beowulf. These things are ever changing. And that’s wonderful, fascinating, and part of being human. None of that is to say culture doesn’t exist. It very much exists. But it’s not static, or bound, or homogenous.
Same where I grew up. The old people in Salford had a very different accent to what you find now. When I was a kid, if you went from Pendleton to Pendlebury in Salford, you'd hear a different twang. Go a few miles on through Farnworth to Bolton and it was a completely different accent. These days it's much more a generic Mancunian.
 
Agree with all this except the bolded, its the low skilled workers who might lose out very slightly

More recently, Nickell and Salaheen (2015) find that a 10 percentage point (not 10%, as misleadingly claimed by a number of politicians) rise in the immigrant share – that is, larger than that observed over the entirety of the last decade – leads to approximately a 1.5% reduction in wages for native workers in the semi/unskilled service sector. This would mean that immigration since 2004 would have reduced wages for native workers in that sector by about 1%, or put another way, would have depressed annual pay increases by about a penny an hour.
How could it be proved that immigration had an effect on wage levels? Correlation is not causation.
 
Same where I grew up. The old people in Salford had a very different accent to what you find now. When I was a kid, if you went from Pendleton to Pendlebury in Salford, you'd hear a different twang. Go a few miles on through Farnworth to Bolton and it was a completely different accent. These days it's much more a generic Mancunian.
Once significant thing that I took from yesterday's arguments on this thread was that some people interpret anarchist antipathy to the nation state, as represented by it's institutions, as generalised loathing for the country's culture. If that's a widespread view, posts like Danny's & yours should help folk appreciate that it's possible to despise the super-structural institutions and economic base of a state and still love the cultural diversity.
 
I have not lived abroad, but I some knowledge of how “things are done” in counties neighbouring Britain. And it was this knowledge, and disgust with the current socioeconomic dispensation in this country, that led me to exclaim last year “I hate this <expletive> country” in a conversation with a family member. I thought then that, if I could, I would be happier living on the territory of a state where public services and other things are better.

I do not ever remember in the past saying “I hate this country”. I know that things can change for the better in this country, but I do sometimes wonder if they ever will, if there is something wrong with us collectively.

I once had a friend whose mother was from Spain, and he told me that there was an expression in that country that translated as “my country feeds me”. In other words, you did not owe any “loyalty” to a state that did not provide for you.
 
Once significant thing that I took from yesterday's arguments on this thread was that some people interpret anarchist antipathy to the nation state, as represented by it's institutions, as generalised loathing for the country's culture. If that's a widespread view, posts like Danny's & yours should help folk appreciate that it's possible to despise the super-structural institutions and economic base of a state and still love the cultural diversity.
On here, maybe. Out in the big wide world, many things just get boiled down to...
"So you're calling me racist then?"
"So you hate our country/culture then?"

Back in the day, it was followed with "So why don't you go live in Russia?" Now you just get called woke.
 
No need to delete. It was interesting to hear your view on brethren. Personally I think it’s changed meaning, and is used in a different sense to “brothers”. It’s religious now, whereas before it wasn’t purely so, it was a synonym of brothers.

There used to be a female equivalent, sistren, but it seems that that fell out of use long before brethren.
 
On here, maybe. Out in the big wide world, many things just get boiled down to...
"So you're calling me racist then?"
"So you hate our country/culture then?"

Back in the day, it was followed with "So why don't you go live in Russia?" Now you just get called woke.
Yep, and regrettably there was some of that thrown against folk on this thread yesterday.
 
Thank you. I found this account of your cultural experiences to be fascinating. I was surprised that there were church services in Gaelic until the 1930s in the area that you lived.

I used to know a couple who came from the Shetland Islands. Even in the 1990s, they spoke Shetland dialect between themselves. It sounded like a Scandinavian language, I found it fascinating. And when they referred to "the mainland", they meant Shetland, which was a bit confusing.
 
lol at all these men saying repeatedly how angry they are that someone has a different pov.

And I do have a different perspective than you and others Danny. And yes yours feels as alien to me as mine to you.

The “cost of everything and the value of nothing” economic argument we’re probably best off leaving. The conclusion seems to be overall net gain, but not evenly spread across time or place (class).

So I can understand why people might be understandably concerned for their own livelihoods, families and communities. Not to excuse racism or hate. But also you ignore that at your peril. Which brings us back to the Baroness of Islington really.

Maybe one way to mitigate the uneven spread of the initial costs of immigration is to make society more equal. To invest in resources so that communities aren’t shitholes where people are having to fight for what little they can. Build more good quality social housing for example so there isn’t the level of resentment.

But I’ve recently been having a big think again about state handouts and state dependency and it’s potential damaging impact on society. So I dunno.
 
Same where I grew up. The old people in Salford had a very different accent to what you find now. When I was a kid, if you went from Pendleton to Pendlebury in Salford, you'd hear a different twang. Go a few miles on through Farnworth to Bolton and it was a completely different accent. These days it's much more a generic Mancunian.

very similar in london - unless someone spoke RP, you could usually tell location within a few miles. i've read something that suggests in victorian london, there were noticeable differences within even closer distances

have seen something recent that suggests the post war new towns like harlow and stevenage now have accents closer to 1950s london than london does
 
lol at all these men saying repeatedly how angry they are that someone has a different pov.

And I do have a different perspective than you and others Danny. And yes yours feels as alien to me as mine to you.

The “cost of everything and the value of nothing” economic argument we’re probably best off leaving. The conclusion seems to be overall net gain, but not evenly spread across time or place (class).

So I can understand why people might be understandably concerned for their own livelihoods, families and communities. Not to excuse racism or hate. But also you ignore that at your peril. Which brings us back to the Baroness of Islington really.

Maybe one way to mitigate the uneven spread of the initial costs of immigration is to make society more equal. To invest in resources so that communities aren’t shitholes where people are having to fight for what little they can. Build more good quality social housing for example so there isn’t the level of resentment.

But I’ve recently been having a big think again about state handouts and state dependency and it’s potential damaging impact on society. So I dunno.
During your big think did it occur to you that the inequality of our society arises from people subscribing to the very “look after our own” philosophy that you were advocating just yesterday?
 
very similar in london - unless someone spoke RP, you could usually tell location within a few miles. i've read something that suggests in victorian london, there were noticeable differences within even closer distances

have seen something recent that suggests the post war new towns like harlow and stevenage now have accents closer to 1950s london than london does
A London-like accent has spread right across the south east. There used to be an accent in East Sussex that sounded more like Norfolk than London. That's now all but gone.
 
During your big think did it occur to you that the inequality of our society arises from people subscribing to the very “look after our own” philosophy that you were advocating just yesterday?
That makes no sense to me so you’ll have to spell it out.
 
Culture, nation-state, nationality, country: these are not synonyms.

Culture is far more granular and layered than nationality. Nationality is something that stops at borders.

And let's get something very clear here. State and country are not synonyms. A state is a power structure. A country is a region.

I don't identify with the state. The state is not my identity. The state is a bureaucratic structure. A polity made by people. The institutions of the state are just constructs. The peoples of the region are not those constructs.

The political affairs of humans come and go. The lines we draw on maps do not exist in the dirt on the land that those maps describe. Even check points erected according to those maps will crumble if not maintained.

Saying I don't identify with those structures is not saying "I hate this country". I don't hate this country. I don't hate the people or the cultures of this country.

I was born and raised on an archipelago known as the British Isles. Because of the political baggage that comes with the term "British", people in Ireland contest that name. I personally like to refer to the archipelago as "these islands". One day it may not be a political statement to say "British". But for many it still is. One day we may be able to say British in the way Norwegians and Swedes can say Scandinavian. I would like that. I hope it comes soon. But it hasn’t come yet.

I am not, by the way, saying nobody feels British. Nor am I saying that by not feeling British I am "above" anything. I am saying that identity is not something we can just assume falls into the borders we ourselves have drawn.

I feel Scottish and European, and I want one day to be able to put a name to These Islands without assumptions being made. But those identities for me are not the governments or institutions of government.

Although I am Scottish, I speak English. This is an example of why it is nonsense to imagine culture stops at borders. Nor is culture homogenous within borders.

I grew up north of the Highland Boundary fault in a place that had not long previously had Gaelic as its majority language. When I grew up there, only very few old people still knew any Gaelic. And yet local church services had been held in Gaelic until the 1930s. But in my day, only a few decades later, that was all forgotten.

My parents, though, were not raised there. My Dad came from Blantyre, my mother from Galashiels. The varieties of dialect they brought to my childhood included words and syntax I didn't hear elsewhere locally when I was growing up. And the dialect of Galashiels is very different from the dialect of Blantyre.

The local traditions of those places differ, too, as did the employment opportunities in my parents' youths.

All of this stuff overlaps, layers, mingles. And I love it.

I am not blind to culture. Culture enriches our lives. When I speak to people from Galashiels I want to hear the accent and vocabulary. Just as when I visit my wife's home in Staffordshire. And when I talk to my Syrian musician friend, I want to hear about his culture, folk tunes, his words for things, his way of seeing the world. Why would I want to be blind to that? It's fascinating!

When I visit the part of Staffordshire my wife grew up in, many of the older people have ways of saying things that the younger people don't. Because culture is ever changing. I knew my wife's grandparents, now long dead, and their irregular plural of house, houzen. You don't hear people say that now. And that too is fascinating. Why would I want to be blind to that? I don't! I'm glad I heard houzen spoken, but I'm also intrigued that it has gone the way of other -en plurals in English. Why now? Why did it hang on so long there? But also what was it that finally made it follow the trend and vanish?

Why would I want to be blind to all that? The change is as interesting as the existence of the outlier in the first place!

What I don't do is to imagine those things extend all the way to nation-state borders and stop dead at them.

I know I've used the term border a lot in a thread about immigration. And the danger is that people will therefore make assumptions about what that means about the policies I "want". That would be to miss the point.

The point is that these things are of different orders. Policy and culture are like apples and chalk.
Fantastic post Danny.

In a similar vein, I remember 20+ years being in Arizona and meeting a Latinx family who were telling us that they got treated as immigrants despite the family having lived there since before it was the USA. The elderly Grandmother could remember the old people in her childhood talking about when the place was still part of Mexico.

On this island we often forget just how utterly arbitrary borders are.

Even "natural" ones.

Iirc there's pockets of "terra nullis" in the Balkans where rivers have altered course but the borders that followed haven't.

There's also the crazy enclaves and exclaves of Belgium and the Netherlands. Read about those and tell me nations = cultures.
 
very similar in london - unless someone spoke RP, you could usually tell location within a few miles. i've read something that suggests in victorian london, there were noticeable differences within even closer distances

have seen something recent that suggests the post war new towns like harlow and stevenage now have accents closer to 1950s london than london does
The cockney accent that I grew up with in London has changed a lot. And yes, you hear the 60s/70s cockney accent in Essex and the Home Counties now, as older Londoners have moved outwards.
 
very similar in london - unless someone spoke RP, you could usually tell location within a few miles. i've read something that suggests in victorian london, there were noticeable differences within even closer distances

have seen something recent that suggests the post war new towns like harlow and stevenage now have accents closer to 1950s london than london does

Some time in the late 80s, I heard a programme on R4 about accents. The guy who was the accent "expert" talked about differences within London, and he said that people from Croydon had hardly any unique pronounciation and that it made them easy to identify because the absence was so distinctive it almost amounted to a "non-accent".

I lived in Croydon until my mid-30s and, on the rare occasions I go back, the "accent" sounds different from the one I remember, almost more East End-ish. That may just be because I'm less accustomed to it though. When I first moved to Sussex, it wasn't uncommon to hear a Sussex accent (a bit like a Hampshire accent, with a distinctive "burr"), but I never hear it now. I think the younger generations just speak RP.
 
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A London-like accent has spread right across the south east. There used to be an accent in East Sussex that sounded more like Norfolk than London. That's now all but gone.

It's interesting you should say that. When I first moved here, I thought that Hastings people had an accent that was different from the one where I live, 30 miles west. That sounded more like an East Anglian accent.

And I never hear anyone pronouncing "Seaford" with the emphasis on the second syllable now, which is how older people used to say it.
 
It's interesting you should say that. When I first moved here, I thought that Hastings people had an accent that was different from the one where I live, 30 miles west. That sounded more like an East Anglian accent.

And I never hear anyone pronouncing "Seaford" with the emphasis on the second syllable now, which is how older people used to say it.
It is Hastings I was thinking of. The last time I remember hearing the accent there was over 20 years ago, sat in a cafe in the old town having breakfast next to some fishermen. They had very broad accents. One of them was middle-aged, so he's probably still alive, but he must be part of that accent's final generation.
 
lol at all these men saying repeatedly how angry they are that someone has a different pov.
You’ve done it again. I wasn’t angry that anyone else “has a different point of view”. That is nowhere near what I’ve said.

I’ve made several posts about my feelings, and I think I was really quite descriptive. So I’m stunned that this is what you took from them. I’ve no idea how you got to there from anything I’ve said. So I really don’t know how to usefully continue our conversation.

What my being a man has to do with it in this instance eludes me.
 
Just to add on Britishness.

After ww2 people who came here from other parts of the Empire were British.

Came here on British passports. And had right to come here.

The idea of being British had been extended to colonised people.

People in Carribbean colonies had British education.

And some felt when coming here that they were coming to the mother country.

Most post war migration here was from empire or recently independent countries in commonwealth.

It's one reason why I get really pissed off when the we should look after our own argument is used. And what a culture shock it must have been when these people came here from commonwealth.

It's taken decades for Black and Asian people to be accepted here as British.

Even that's not guaranteed. See Windrush scandal.
 
Just to add on Britishness.

After ww2 people who came here from other parts of the Empire were British.

Came here on British passports. And had right to come here.

The idea of being British had been extended to colonised people.

People in Carribbean colonies had British education.

And some felt when coming here that they were coming to the mother country.

Most post war migration here was from empire or recently independent countries in commonwealth.

It's one reason why I get really pissed off when the we should look after our own argument is used. And what a culture shock it must have been when these people came here from commonwealth.

It's taken decades for Black and Asian people to be accepted here as British.

Even that's not guaranteed. See Windrush scandal.
Yep. That right to come here was ended in 1962, but not because Britain had been 'flooded'. Net migration was still emigration at the time, not immigration.
 
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