Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[lengualo]

I'm not attaching any blame to either community with regards geographical segregation - I suspect it's partly organic, partly driven by economics, but has probably been exacerbated by some government policies particularly the changes to the education system over the past four decades. I'm just observing that it exists in quite a number of towns that are basically bicultural rather than multicultural, and it's quite different to more mixed communities within the big cities. It's bred a sense of otherness perhaps. But then again, these towns weren't generally those that experienced rioting this time.

But the idea of Muslim communities as some sort of enemy within is clearly widespread and those narratives are generally the true face of 'concerns about immigration' in my view.

You also have to remember that current events often plays a factor in this stuff too, along with whoever the influencers are targetting. TR and co whipped them up with a target and have been doing so for a while. Racists often use something current (in this case Asylum Seekers and a murder) to lash out at a scapegoat. Whilst not as severe, it wasn't so long ago that hate crimes against Chinese people and anyone of East Asian descent saw a sharp increase, and before that Eastern Europeans were a high profile target, alongside Muslims, Muslims get a lot of shit. But you get where I'm going?

As an extreme example, if we were to shut off all immigration to Muslim people and eject all Muslims from the country then they wouldn't be placated, they'd move on to the next scapegoat.

 

[lazythursday]

Whilst the riots focused on Muslims and asylum seekers, and they have more vitriol towards that community, it is incorrect to attribute their wider sentiment singularily to Muslims. For one, they targetted people of African descent too, and there is a lot of crossover with a wider sentiment about foreign people, or those they perceive as foreign. A lot of people who bang on about Muslims also bang on about Polish too and the sentiment about resources applies indiscriminately to anyone who is from abroad or who they perceive as such. You could argue that colourism plays a role.

They are also motivated along racial lines rather than religious ones, it doesn't matter to them whether their target is a Muslim, or a Hindu, or whatever. Just that they are brown and look like they're from the Middle East. Its not exactly rare for them to misidentify people from the Med or Spain due to historical migration patterns and skin colour.

Moving onto black people, again, it doesn't matter to them whether the persons heritage is from Kenya, Morocco, Jamaica, Brazil, an African American, or from Veracruz. What matters is that they are black and the person who committed the murders was also black.

So whilst they their language is targetted, their actions are indicriminate and operate along racial lines.

Of course out and out racists have a problem with most foreign backgrounds. But without a doubt what drove people onto the streets, caused the uprising of mob violence, were toxic narratives and rumours about Muslims and asylum seekers. You can't tackle this without facing that down specifically. Broadening it out to trying to understand concerns about immigration in general, or deciding it's all about racist attitudes full stop, isn't that helpful. If the rumour about the Southport killing had been that it was a Chinese student it's unlikely we'd have seen it play out as it did.

 

[lengualo]

Of course out and out racists have a problem with most foreign backgrounds.

Whilst you might have out and out racists who commit these acts of violence there is also a section of society who sit at home thinking "good".

But without a doubt what drove people onto the streets, caused the uprising of mob violence, were toxic narratives and rumours about Muslims and asylum seekers.

Correct, I didn't say otherwise.

You can't tackle this without facing that down specifically. Broadening it out to trying to understand concerns about immigration in general, or deciding it's all about racist attitudes full stop, isn't that helpful.

Racism against Muslims is a problem and they are by far the most vulnerable group in this country right now. However, what you're implying about their concerns being singularly focused on Muslims does not agree with my own experiences, which would be more that you're broadly looking at the same people. The fact they went after people of African descent also disagrees.

If the rumour about the Southport killing had been that it was a Chinese student it's unlikely we'd have seen it play out as it did.

If all hell had broken loose on the Korean penninsula and we had an influx of East Asian asylum seekers fleeing across Europe, and then there had been a murder, then yeah I think you'd see similar play out. If you look at the USA (the instigators are related) then you can literally flip out the target and the rhetoric used is largely adjacent. You can pretty much do a race and country swap and its like, a carbon copy.

Research into spikes in hate crimes and the uptick in hate crimes against East Asians during Covid (which, I might add, could have been worse had we not been in various states of lockdown) informs us that it probably would have been the case. The target currently, and recently, has been Muslims because they are the primary target of TR and co, and due to current events. Whether it would have been extreme is a whole other question and is frankly irrelevant.

 

[lazythursday]

I don't think we're disagreeing really. Of course far right influencers and instigators will use whatever narrative is most effective. But the anti-muslim narrative is deeply embedded in many communities, particularly building on conspiracy theories relating to grooming gangs. It's been legitimised by mainstream politicians and media as well as the extremes. Until something shifts in that - and that relates to broader geopolitical questions as well as what happens here - there's going to be 'concern about immigration' that's a fig leaf for 'concern about Muslims'.

 

[lengualo]

I don't think we're disagreeing really. Of course far right influencers and instigators will use whatever narrative is most effective. But the anti-muslim narrative is deeply embedded in many communities, particularly building on conspiracy theories relating to grooming gangs. It's been legitimised by mainstream politicians and media as well as the extremes. Until something shifts in that - and that relates to broader geopolitical questions as well as what happens here - there's going to be 'concern about immigration' that's a fig leaf for 'concern about Muslims'.

I don't think we are either, Muslims are the largest target right now, I just think you're attributing concerns with muslims too hard because thats more to do with current scapegoat. If the government where to address their concerns in some way, then the focus would move elsewhere.

particularly building on conspiracy theories relating to grooming gangs

"They're rapists" has emboldened hate towards the target groups across the pond. The grooming gangs thing is a far right talking point in the Anglosphere, they just switch out the target to whomever the highest profile migrant community or current event is. There is research into this, current events emboldens violence against minority groups.

Of course far right influencers and instigators will use whatever narrative is most effective.

It's been legitimised by mainstream politicians and media as well as the extremes. Until something shifts in that - and that relates to broader geopolitical questions as well as what happens here - there's going to be 'concern about immigration'

It isn't just the media narrative though, if you switch across the pond the things the people say, and their concerns, are much the same. Thats not some freak coincidence.

The concerns about crime for example, Muslim people aren't more likely to hurt people than a white Christian is, in the same way a Latino isn't more likely to hurt a white American christian than anyone else. But thats how a scapegoat works. So if you start looking at concerns about a community what you're really doing is buying into a load of racist propaganda. I move between two continents and see same shit, different continent. Its not because anything "Muslim", its just a narrative.


I think the answer is to improve peoples lot in life and change the narrative. Then, educate people.

 

[PTK]

Do concerns about immigration have a cut off point time wise?

One of the few people at work whose expressed concerns comes from a northern town which has an Asian population.

Now the Asian population are the grandchildren of those who migrated here.

Yet he complains there are to many Muslims in this country and it should be stopped.

These are British Asians he's talking about.

Yet it appears that its still a concern.

At least he comes out with it and says what he wants. End to allowing Muslims into this country.

A section of the group we called Asians when I was a lad have been re-labelled Muslims. The re-labelling is connected to them being seen as problematic.

 

[Pickman's model]

A section of the group we called Asians when I was a lad have been re-labelled Muslims. The re-labelling is connected to them being seen as problematic.

The last 40 or so years of demonisation of Muslims might play a part too

 

[PTK]

You also have to remember that current events often plays a factor in this stuff too, along with whoever the influencers are targetting. TR and co whipped them up with a target and have been doing so for a while. Racists often use something current (in this case Asylum Seekers and a murder) to lash out at a scapegoat. Whilst not as severe, it wasn't so long ago that hate crimes against Chinese people and anyone of East Asian descent saw a sharp increase, and before that Eastern Europeans were a high profile target, alongside Muslims, Muslims get a lot of shit. But you get where I'm going?

As an extreme example, if we were to shut off all immigration to Muslim people and eject all Muslims from the country then they wouldn't be placated, they'd move on to the next scapegoat.

Hence the title of the famous BBC television play, a satirical non-realistic drama called "If there weren't any Blacks, you'd have to invent them", which I saw in the early 1970s in my early teens, in which a White man is executed for being Black, as blind man decides that he must be Black.

 

[brogdale]

The last 40 or so years of demonisation of Muslims might play a part too

The reasons for neoliberal state actors' overt islamophobia is probably worthy of a dedicated thread, tbh.

Taking Trump's 2020 administration as an example (Edie will like this) neoliberalism's Islamophobia was evidently based on the conceptualization of Islam and Muslims as antithetical to neoliberal values. Trump's five main Islamophobic narratives being:
(1) radical Islam is the sole cause of terrorism;
(2) radical Islamic terrorism is a global existential threat;
(3) Muslim refugees and immigrants were therefore a threat to American security leading to
(4) the proposal to suspend entry of Muslim refugees and immigrants to the US; and
(5) the faux humanitarian policy of establishing safe zones for Muslim refugees in Syria.

 

[Gramsci]

I'm not attaching any blame to either community with regards geographical segregation - I suspect it's partly organic, partly driven by economics, but has probably been exacerbated by some government policies particularly the changes to the education system over the past four decades. I'm just observing that it exists in quite a number of towns that are basically bicultural rather than multicultural, and it's quite different to more mixed communities within the big cities. It's bred a sense of otherness perhaps. But then again, these towns weren't generally those that experienced rioting this time.

But the idea of Muslim communities as some sort of enemy within is clearly widespread and those narratives are generally the true face of 'concerns about immigration' in my view.

This happens in London.

I go to tooting regularly and it's large Pakistani background in that area.

I know it's Pakistani as was working with an Indian guy and we travelled through it. I just dropped a remark that a lot of Indians here. He went on tirade about they were Pakistanis and India could defeat Pakistan at any time

So that told me

The Pakistani I work with can tell me as we go through London which parts of Pakistan different communities in London live in. I can't tell. He knows.

Tbh I don't really have a problem with this kind of self segregation.

 

[newme]

Yes I am concerned about immigration, we may not have enough of it.

 

[brogdale]

This happens in London.

I go to tooting regularly and it's large Pakistani background in that area.

I know it's Pakistani as was working with an Indian guy and we travelled through it. I just dropped a remark that a lot of Indians here. He went on tirade about they were Pakistanis and India could defeat Pakistan at any time

So that told me

The Pakistani I work with can tell me as we go through London which parts of Pakistan different communities in London live in. I can't tell. He knows.

Tbh I don't really have a problem with this kind of self segregation.

I've seen plenty of 19thC maps of cities in the British Empire that show profound racial segregation with the immigrant imperialists living in self-segregation. Wonder if some of the subjugated peoples learnt from that behaviour?

 

[lengualo]

I've seen plenty of 19thC maps of cities in the British Empire that show profound racial segregation with the immigrant imperialists living in self-segregation. Wonder if some of the subjugated peoples learnt from that behaviour?

Answer is yes, although I'm sure the question is rhetorical. The highest in society in a lot of post colonial countries were beneficiaries of the caste systems, and often have the strongest historical ties to the motherland - either through ethnicity or societal position. This then created a long standing psyche of aspiration. Lighter skins are more attractive, lighter skins are more likely to get the jobs, the pro Europeans are more cultured, skin colour itself becomes complex issue though because of indiginous peoples. But broad brush, its a thing.

 

[Edie]

The reasons for neoliberal state actors' overt islamophobia is probably worthy of a dedicated thread, tbh.

Taking Trump's 2020 administration as an example (Edie will like this) neoliberalism's Islamophobia was evidently based on the conceptualization of Islam and Muslims as antithetical to neoliberal values. Trump's five main Islamophobic narratives being:
(1) radical Islam is the sole cause of terrorism;
(2) radical Islamic terrorism is a global existential threat;
(3) Muslim refugees and immigrants were therefore a threat to American security leading to
(4) the proposal to suspend entry of Muslim refugees and immigrants to the US; and
(5) the faux humanitarian policy of establishing safe zones for Muslim refugees in Syria.

I think Trump is a self serving, dangerous, liar. A threat to American democracy. And an orange, ugly cunt.

And a lot of my colleagues, friends, and kids friends are Muslim. I live in the north mate and work in Bradford I’d hazard I’ve been in a lot more mosques, spoken to more Imam’s, and been to more nikkah’s than you.

Here’s my best mate from med school’s nikkah (both single Mums born in Dewsbury and Lambeth, both state school educated, saw each other through thick and thin, violent husbands, cared for each others kids whilst we studied, both now Consultants alhamdulillah).

 

[lazythursday]

Tbh I don't really have a problem with this kind of self segregation.

I don't have a 'problem' with it as such. I think it's pretty inevitable in many ways. But it's probably a factor in how distrust can build. And I think there's something qualitatively different about communities where there is one large minority community in a defined area of a town, vs larger cities with more of a patchwork of communities, and more mixed areas. I'm not blaming the minority community for this at all - in fact arguably 'white flight' has just as large a role in how segregation has developed.

 

[brogdale]

I think Trump is a self serving, dangerous, liar. A threat to American democracy. And an orange, ugly cunt.

And a lot of my colleagues, friends, and kids friends are Muslim. I live in the north mate and work in Bradford I’d hazard I’ve been in a lot more mosques, spoken to more Imam’s, and been to more nikkah’s than you.

Here’s my best mate from med school’s nikkah (both single Mums born in Dewsbury and Lambeth, both state school educated, saw each other through thick and thin, violent husbands, cared for each others kids whilst we studied, both now Consultants alhamdulillah).

View attachment 440795

I'm genuinely delighted that you enjoy the benefits of multicultural Britain; my name-check was because of your self-declared status as our Trump supporter correspondent and repetition of MAGA ideas/talking points.

 

[andysays]

Whilst you might have out and out racists who commit these acts of violence there is also a section of society who sit at home thinking "good".




Correct, I didn't say otherwise.




Racism against Muslims is a problem and they are by far the most vulnerable group in this country right now. However, what you're implying about their concerns being singularly focused on Muslims does not agree with my own experiences, which would be more that you're broadly looking at the same people. The fact they went after people of African descent also disagrees.




If all hell had broken loose on the Korean penninsula and we had an influx of East Asian asylum seekers fleeing across Europe, and then there had been a murder, then yeah I think you'd see similar play out. If you look at the USA (the instigators are related) then you can literally flip out the target and the rhetoric used is largely adjacent. You can pretty much do a race and country swap and its like, a carbon copy.

Research into spikes in hate crimes and the uptick in hate crimes against East Asians during Covid (which, I might add, could have been worse had we not been in various states of lockdown) informs us that it probably would have been the case. The target currently, and recently, has been Muslims because they are the primary target of TR and co, and due to current events. Whether it would have been extreme is a whole other question and is frankly irrelevant.

You're correct to point out the rise in hate crimes against people of East Asian appearance during COVID, and they certainly experience a certain amount of racist abuse which isn't related to COVID.

But Muslims have been demonised in recent decades in a way which most other minorities haven't, and it would be incorrect to suggest that TR and his ilk are the originators of this, or even that it originated as a reaction to 9/11. Islamophobia in Britain (and elsewhere, obviously) is far more pervasive and has been around for ages.

 

[lazythursday]

I think Trump is a self serving, dangerous, liar. A threat to American democracy. And an orange, ugly cunt.

And a lot of my colleagues, friends, and kids friends are Muslim. I live in the north mate and work in Bradford I’d hazard I’ve been in a lot more mosques, spoken to more Imam’s, and been to more nikkah’s than you.

Here’s my best mate from med school’s nikkah (both single Mums born in Dewsbury and Lambeth, both state school educated, saw each other through thick and thin, violent husbands, cared for each others kids whilst we studied, both now Consultants alhamdulillah).

View attachment 440795

Interesting that you mention Bradford - which despite its poverty is a great city, diverse in all sorts of ways, great architecture, stunning countryside, the youngest city in terms of age in the country, fastest growing population outside London. Yet it's basically a byword for shithole in the media / general parlance. Hard not to feel that it's been systemically overlooked and disinvested in over the past few decades - and how much of that has been driven by racism? Not racism of the sort we see from ordinary people but something much more structural, of decisions made by politicians and businessmen.

 

[PTK]

.

 

[lengualo]

You're correct to point out the rise in hate crimes against people of East Asian appearance during COVID, and they certainly experience a certain amount of racist abuse which isn't related to COVID.

But Muslims have been demonised in recent decades in a way which most other minorities haven't, and it would be incorrect to suggest that TR and his ilk are the originators of this, or even that it originated as a reaction to 9/11. Islamophobia in Britain (and elsewhere, obviously) is far more pervasive and has been around for ages.

I don't dispute that. What I was getting at though was that there are certain scapegoats, often from places where we have interfered, who become the target for hatred and I think coming at it from the angle of addressing peoples concerns about Muslims has no more merit than looking at the concerns people may have about Black people, Latinos, East Asians or whoever else. Its always buying into some group who the racists have decided are out to get us in some way, when they aren't.

If you take the talking points, the concerns themselves, used about minority groups, they are pretty much variations of the same each time. A common playbook. That was my point, although I shat out a mind fart into the thread so it might be lost in that.

 

[andysays]

I don't dispute that. What I was getting at though was that there are certain scapegoats, often from places where we have interfered, who become the target for hatred and I think coming at it from the angle of addressing peoples concerns about Muslims has no more merit than looking at the concerns people may have about Black people, Latinos, East Asians or whoever else. Its always buying into some group who the racists have decided are out to get us in some way, when they aren't.

If you take the talking points, the concerns themselves, used about minority groups, they are pretty much variations of the same each time. A common playbook. That was my point, although I shat out a mind fart into the thread so it might be lost in that.

I agree with pretty much everything in this post, but I don't think I agree with your previous suggestion that

If all hell had broken loose on the Korean penninsula and we had an influx of East Asian asylum seekers fleeing across Europe, and then there had been a murder, then yeah I think you'd see similar play out.

for the simple reason that East Asians haven't been demonised to the same extent as Muslims.

 

[lengualo]

I agree with pretty much everything in this post, but I don't think I agree with your previous suggestion that



for the simple reason that East Asians haven't been demonised to the same extent as Muslims.

OK, it might have been exaggerated, I was trying to make a point. My intentions are not to down play the plight Muslims face but that there is a wider problem of racism and a networked Alt Right who are broadly racist and the ideologies are connected.

Just hitting of East Asians for example, there is the whole SEA-Matching thing within the Incel/Tate circles who are also interconnected with what we're seeing now. We have the broader far right movement here and their commander in chief, and others, hop across the pond to help target Muslims, Black people and Latinos in the US. So giving time to concerns about Muslims is misplaced. Maybe I'm not the best person to phrase all this though.

 

[Edie]

I'm genuinely delighted that you enjoy the benefits of multicultural Britain; my name-check was because of your self-declared status as our Trump supporter correspondent and repetition of MAGA ideas/talking points.

“The benefits of multicultural Britain” sounds like someone who gets a kick about their dressmaker being Syrian and their barber Turkish. A cultural tourist. Rather than day to day life with good sides and difficulties and differences.

I’m sure you don’t mean it to sound like that. My own experience has been there’s benefits and downsides to raising kids alongside what at times is a different culture and religion. My kids would tell you the same.

We have had big discussions over the years about homosexuality, marriage roles, fasting, hijab, the fact their mates go to mosque after school, and why Hashim has free access to firearms in his village in Pakistan (a subject of much jealousy ).

But that’s the real world eh. Not all ‘benefits’ sometimes clashes. Samosas at lunchtime rock tho

 

[andysays]

OK, it might have been exaggerated, I was trying to make a point. My intentions are not to down play the plight Muslims face but that there is a wider problem of racism and a networked Alt Right who are broadly racist and the ideologies are connected.

Just hitting of East Asians for example, there is the whole SEA-Matching thing within the Incel/Tate circles who are also interconnected with what we're seeing now.

I don't know what that is, but if it's something to do with Incels/Tate I'm probably better off not knowing.

 

[lazythursday]

Not over the long term no. But there would be an influx. My intentions are not to down play the plight Muslims face but that there is a wider problem of racism and a networked Alt Right who are broadly racist and the ideologies are connected.

Just hitting of East Asians for example, there is the whole SEA-Matching thing within the Incel/Tate circles who are also interconnected with what we're seeing now.

I think theres a difference between the antics and obsessions of the alt right and the drivers that encourage ordinary people to join a racist mob, in Southport or Rotherham etc in 2024. To assume it's all down to the alt right is letting a lot of other actors off the hook.

 

[lengualo]

I don't know what that is, but if it's something to do with Incels/Tate I'm probably better off not knowing.

Basically seeking out a South East Asian woman (or girls most likely) you can dominate and abuse because submissive, weak stereotypes and I big westener shit. So pretty grotty yeah.

 

[PTK]

Yes I am concerned about immigration, we may not have enough of it.

What is enough, and why may we not have had enough?

 

[andysays]

“The benefits of multicultural Britain” sounds like someone who gets a kick about their dressmaker being Syrian and their barber Turkish. A cultural tourist. Rather than day to day life with good sides and difficulties and differences.

I’m sure you don’t mean it to sound like that. My own experience has been there’s benefits and downsides to raising kids alongside what at times is a different culture and religion. My kids would tell you the same.

We have had big discussions over the years about homosexuality, marriage roles, fasting, hijab, the fact their mates go to mosque after school, and why Hashim has free access to firearms in his village in Pakistan (a subject of much jealousy ).

But that’s the real world eh. Not all ‘benefits’ sometimes clashes. Samosas at lunchtime rock tho

I think brogdale was taking the piss, much as you said you were a while back.

Anyway, it's always interesting to read the opinions of a someone whose boyfriend owns three factories in China and apparently regularly pays for her to jet over to the USA to have her photo taken standing next to his Porsche.

I'm sure your views on immigration are as representative of northern working class women as you claim

 

[Edie]

Interesting that you mention Bradford - which despite its poverty is a great city, diverse in all sorts of ways, great architecture, stunning countryside, the youngest city in terms of age in the country, fastest growing population outside London. Yet it's basically a byword for shithole in the media / general parlance. Hard not to feel that it's been systemically overlooked and disinvested in over the past few decades - and how much of that has been driven by racism? Not racism of the sort we see from ordinary people but something much more structural, of decisions made by politicians and businessmen.

Love/Hate relationship. Love the kids (most of em ), and the fantastic restaurants, and boxes of mangoes, horse n traps, moors, Waterstones, entrepreneurship is a totally different level (and cash is ). Hate the rubbish, the poverty, the decay and abandoned mills, and the motherfucking traffic. Plus rules of the road totally different there. Cross the Pudsey line and it’s Bradford-rules.

2025 city of culture hopefully huge. They’ve already done up a load of buildings and completely remodelling the city centre roads.

 

[Edie]

I think brogdale was taking the piss, much as you said you were a while back.

Anyway, it's always interesting to read the opinions of a someone whose boyfriend owns three factories in China and apparently regularly pays for her to jet over to the USA to have her photo taken standing next to his Porsche.

I'm sure your views on immigration are as representative of northern working class women as you claim

I speak for myself only mate.