Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[brogdale]

“The benefits of multicultural Britain” sounds like someone who gets a kick about their dressmaker being Syrian and their barber Turkish. A cultural tourist. Rather than day to day life with good sides and difficulties and differences.

I’m sure you don’t mean it to sound like that. My own experience has been there’s benefits and downsides to raising kids alongside what at times is a different culture and religion. My kids would tell you the same.

We have had big discussions over the years about homosexuality, marriage roles, fasting, hijab, the fact their mates go to mosque after school, and why Hashim has free access to firearms in his village in Pakistan (a subject of much jealousy ).

But that’s the real world eh. Not all ‘benefits’ sometimes clashes. Samosas at lunchtime rock tho

Your #1844 post that I was replying to did not include any discernible "downsides", only benefits AFAICS.

So for all of your admiration of the MAGA crowd's values and beliefs, you don't agree with islamophobic controls on immigration, then?

 

[Edie]

Your #1844 post that I was replying to did not include any discernible "downsides", only benefits AFAICS.

So for all of your admiration of the MAGA crowd's values and beliefs, you don't agree with islamophobic controls on immigration, then?

Are you taking the piss?

 

[brogdale]

Are you taking the piss?

No; taking what you say at face value.

When someone repeats the SYL line that we "need to look after our own" that might include agreeing with a Trump style ban on Muslim immigration. Up to you to spell out where your red lines are.

 

[lengualo]

I think theres a difference between the antics and obsessions of the alt right and the drivers that encourage ordinary people to join a racist mob, in Southport or Rotherham etc in 2024. To assume it's all down to the alt right is letting a lot of other actors off the hook.

Its the alt-right influencers who are spreading the rhetoric, radicalising the people, and issuing the calls to action. That doesn't exclude other actors either, I include various Tories, Trump, LePen, and government policy in that. I also recognise that they both give voice to existing racial prejudices as well as indoctrinate the easily influenced into becoming racists.

 

[PTK]

At times this thread reminds me of some of the more stupid comments with respect to remaining in the EU.

A liking for holidays in Tuscany was not relevant to a discussion UK membership of the EU, and liking curry or reggae is not actually relevant to a discussion of immigration, in my opinion.

 

[Gramsci]

I don't have a 'problem' with it as such. I think it's pretty inevitable in many ways. But it's probably a factor in how distrust can build. And I think there's something qualitatively different about communities where there is one large minority community in a defined area of a town, vs larger cities with more of a patchwork of communities, and more mixed areas. I'm not blaming the minority community for this at all - in fact arguably 'white flight' has just as large a role in how segregation has developed.

The thing is when there are concerns about this its directed at Muslim communities. Even when that's not said explicitly.

London has Jewish minority that live in North London. Im also around Hatton Garden a lot. There is significant Jewish presence there in the gold industry in Hatton Garden. Hasidic Jews . They are British but live separate lives in their own communities.

If one wrote articles criticising Jews for not integrating etc and/ or living in a town as one large minority community, Like that's a legitimate concern people might wonder if this isn't bordering on anti semitism.

 

[dylanredefined]

What I dont understand the population is bigger than ever and we are supposedly short of skilled workers ,teachers,nurses, the armed forces etc,etc, What is everyone doing?

 

[maomao]

Im also around Hatton Garden a lot of there is significant Jewish presence there in the gold industry.

Hatton Garden is diamonds. Usually attached to lumps of gold but it's the sparkly bits that are important.

 

[lengualo]

“The benefits of multicultural Britain” sounds like someone who gets a kick about their dressmaker being Syrian and their barber Turkish. A cultural tourist. Rather than day to day life with good sides and difficulties and differences.

I’m sure you don’t mean it to sound like that. My own experience has been there’s benefits and downsides to raising kids alongside what at times is a different culture and religion. My kids would tell you the same.

We have had big discussions over the years about homosexuality, marriage roles, fasting, hijab, the fact their mates go to mosque after school, and why Hashim has free access to firearms in his village in Pakistan (a subject of much jealousy ).

But that’s the real world eh. Not all ‘benefits’ sometimes clashes. Samosas at lunchtime rock tho

Sorry, but thats true of anyone. You're never going to find everyone thinking like you, being just like you, without any clashes over anything regardless of where they were born or what cultural upbringing they had. I'm just as likely to clash with a Muslim family than anyone else. Thats just life and the majority of cultural differences aren't really going to affect you unless you're marrying someone or something. Unless you're super rigid or something.

 

[maomao]

What I dont understand the population is bigger than ever and we are supposedly short of skilled workers ,teachers,nurses, the armed forces etc,etc, What is everyone doing?

Financial industry has the highest wages so anyone with a brain and no morals goes there. Who the fuck goes to public school to be a GP anymore?

 

[Edie]

No; taking what you say at face value.

When someone repeats the SYL line that we "need to look after our own" that might include agreeing with a Trump style ban on Muslim immigration. Up to you to spell out where your red lines are.

Aishah is my own as are her kids. It’s about what’s best for us in Britain, now, and in the future. It’s not about Muslims, it’s not about the past, it’s about thinking about what is best moving forward. What is in our interests.

Because it’s clear to me that the free movement of people is in capitals interest. Now my other half would argue it’s therefore in everyone’s interest. I’m unconvinced. So are a lot of people.

 

[Gramsci]

Hatton Garden is diamonds. Usually attached to lumps of gold but it's the sparkly bits that are important.

Yeh well. I often pick up gold rings as it happens

 

[lengualo]

At times this thread reminds me of some of the more stupid comments with respect to remaining in the EU.

A liking for holidays in Tuscany was not relevant to a discussion UK membership of the EU, and liking curry or reggae is not actually relevant to a discussion of immigration, in my opinion.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But regarding the curry thing, it should not be taken literally about am individual product. Without immigration we'd have a very different landscape, and that different cultures here introduce stuff to the culture that are collectively a net positive.

 

[Gramsci]

Aishah is my own as are her kids. It’s about what’s best for us in Britain, now, and in the future. It’s not about Muslims, it’s not about the past, it’s about thinking about what is best moving forward. What is in our interests.

Because it’s clear to me that the free movement of people is in capitals interest. Now my other half would argue it’s therefore in everyone’s interest. I’m unconvinced. So are a lot of people.

But your concerns about welfare dependency you have expressed here are not in the interests of capital?

 

[Edie]

What I dont understand the population is bigger than ever and we are supposedly short of skilled workers ,teachers,nurses, the armed forces etc,etc, What is everyone doing?

This is a good question. There’s seemingly a significant labour shortage- from welders to nurses to farm workers- you cannot hire people.

 

[lengualo]

What I dont understand the population is bigger than ever and we are supposedly short of skilled workers ,teachers,nurses, the armed forces etc,etc, What is everyone doing?

Part a lack of our education system promoting careers in at need areas, part wage stagnation in dying industries, part the demographic make-up of the country skewing retired or at the end of working life due to the declining birth rate.

You also have the simple fact of that we have a large healthcare demand but not everyone wants to be a nurse or a doctor. If your need is x, but the people able or interested in fulfilling that need is lower, then you gotta get the people from somewhere. You have the same in many industries tbh, we frequently cry out for people in science fields, usually specialists, but not everyone wants to be scientist or whatever.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Financial industry has the highest wages so anyone with a brain and no morals goes there. Who the fuck goes to public school to be a GP anymore?

This is a serious problem. A kid I know, mega smart, 1sts in everything, PhD in physics, just started working for a fucking bank. All that training to go and do that? It's a blight on society.

 

[Gramsci]

Interesting podcast about the rise of the far right in Ireland (the protestors deny it’s race based- they speak about housing, class sizes, GP appointments).

Signifiant protests by wc people in every county, both Protestant and Catholic, Ireland and Northern Ireland. Talks about the large recent increase of immigration, migrants being housed in tents, and how the anti-lockdown movement merged into this expanding new political movement that crosses religious and Ireland/N. Ireland borders.

Discusses that the political parties don’t know how to respond to it, the risk of a minority of people involved having a long history of involvement with serious violence, and links with online (but not financial) conservative America discussed.

Finally, discusses that Ireland is historically a country with links to migration. Previously would have been considered an open and welcoming place for migrants.

This is about the rise of far right in Ireland

When you wanted to start a conversation about immigration on the Far right riot thread mojo pixy and other posters thought it was better to have a separate thread on concerns about immigration.

As having a discussion about concerns related to immigration on a thread about far right was in danger of legitimising the agenda that Far right are pushing.

Now you put this post up.

You either don't listen to what others say or you just don't get it.

 

[brogdale]

Aishah is my own as are her kids. It’s about what’s best for us in Britain, now, and in the future. It’s not about Muslims, it’s not about the past, it’s about thinking about what is best moving forward. What is in our interests.

Because it’s clear to me that the free movement of people is in capitals interest. Now my other half would argue it’s therefore in everyone’s interest. I’m unconvinced. So are a lot of people.

I agree that it's not about Muslims, but subscribing to the "look after our own" mind-set aligns you with forces, like Trump/MAGA, the vermin and SYL that have Islamophobic agendas and your posting doesn't convince me that you know how to square that circle.

 

[PTK]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But regarding the curry thing, it should not be taken literally about am individual product. Without immigration we'd have a very different landscape, and that different cultures here introduce stuff to the culture that are collectively a net positive.

I am just musing now, pondering aloud. Does this mean that a country that does not have reggae, for example, has a deprived culture?

 

[brogdale]

This is a serious problem. A kid I know, mega smart, 1sts in everything, PhD in physics, just started working for a fucking bank. All that training to go and do that? It's a blight on society.

Not new either; when I graduated in social sciences in 1982, fully 85% of my department's cohort went straight into financial services.

 

[lengualo]

This is a serious problem. A kid I know, mega smart, 1sts in everything, PhD in physics, just started working for a fucking bank. All that training to go and do that? It's a blight on society.

Thats self determination though, and often when that kind of stuff happens a pushy, domineering, parent was somewhere behind them. "You are going to do that law degree whether you like it or not Timmy, you need to get a real job.".

 

[lengualo]

I am just musing now, pondering aloud. Does this mean that a country that does not have reggae, for example, has a deprived culture?

Reggae specifically? Whilst I am glad we do, no. But broadly, the enrichment other cultures bring then yes.

 

[Edie]

But your concerns about welfare dependency you have expressed here are not in the interests of capital?

I don’t know. I’m just not convinced they’re in the interests of communities long term. If you go to an area where there is a lot of people on benefits compared to an area where there is a mix or majority working people you can see the difference. Literally see the despair. It costs nothing to keep your front garden tidy, to get your kids to school, to clean your home, take your kid to a GP appointment. But cycles of poverty and violence and benefits trap people (like Darren McGarvey shows).

Now one lens- the left- says give people more money in benefits and reduce poverty and you’ll break the cycle.

The other says the dependency and lack of self esteem and pride and meaning from working and contributing can’t be solved by giving more money making work pay less. In fact all you well meaningly do is perpetuate it.

I genuinely don’t know what I think rn.

But it’s not got much to do with immigrants- they rarely claim benefits, work hard, and their kids tend to do very well in school. Because they take opportunities. And good for them.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thats self determination though, and often when that kind of stuff happens a pushy, domineering, parent was somewhere behind them. "You are going to do that law degree whether you like it or not Timmy, you need to get a real job.".

Nah. It's because he wants to earn shit loads of money.

And society is twisted in such a way that someone with a level of physics training that only a tiny percentage of people are even capable of achieving will be tempted away like this into socially useless work.

And believe me, banks/hedge funds etc do pay shit loads of money to attract the highest-achieving physics/maths grads. It's a massive waste.

 

[Edie]

Part a lack of our education system promoting careers in at need areas, part wage stagnation in dying industries, part the demographic make-up of the country skewing retired or at the end of working life due to the declining birth rate.

You also have the simple fact of that we have a large healthcare demand but not everyone wants to be a nurse or a doctor. If your need is x, but the people able or interested in fulfilling that need is lower, then you gotta get the people from somewhere. You have the same in many industries tbh, we frequently cry out for people in science fields, usually specialists, but not everyone wants to be scientist or whatever.

Also an increase in health-related benefits. There are now 4.2 million working-age individuals (10.2% of the working-age population) receiving at least one health-related benefit. This is up from 3.2 million in 2019 (7.9%).

One in ten!

 

[Edie]

This is about the rise of far right in Ireland

When you wanted to start a conversation about immigration on the Far right riot thread mojo pixy and other posters thought it was better to have a separate thread on concerns about immigration.

As having a discussion about concerns related to immigration on a thread about far right was in danger of legitimising the agenda that Far right are pushing.

Now you put this post up.

You either don't listen to what others say or you just don't get it.

Why don’t you listen to the podcast. It’s all about immigration and the link to the far right movement. Then you might understand the link.

 

[Gramsci]

Why don’t you listen to the podcast. It’s all about immigration and the link to the far right movement. Then you might understand the link.

On a thread specifically set up for people concerns.

What can I say.

 

[brogdale]

I don’t know. I’m just not convinced they’re in the interests of communities long term. If you go to an area where there is a lot of people on benefits compared to an area where there is a mix or majority working people you can see the difference. Literally see the despair. It costs nothing to keep your front garden tidy, to get your kids to school, to clean your home, take your kid to a GP appointment. But cycles of poverty and violence and benefits trap people (like Darren McGarvey shows).

Now one lens- the left- says give people more money in benefits and reduce poverty and you’ll break the cycle.

The other says the dependency and lack of self esteem and pride and meaning from working and contributing can’t be solved by giving more money making work pay less. In fact all you well meaningly do is perpetuate it.

I genuinely don’t know what I think rn.

But it’s not got much to do with immigrants- they rarely claim benefits, work hard, and their kids tend to do very well in school. Because they take opportunities. And good for them.

I happen to agree that it is in neoliberal capital's interest to have some degree of free movement of labour, but that does not immediately equate with a "left" position of anti free movement. I mean it is also in capital's interest that many people have babies (future workers) but that does not mean that anti-capitalists should necessarily adopt anti-natalist positions.

Given your far-right curious and wealth glorifying posting, I'm also rather unconvinced that your anti-immigration stance is motivated by antipathy to capital. I suspect that you're using that as some sort of 'fig-leaf' to convince mainly left of centre readers that your position is somehow justified.

As to your poverty-shaming comments; they're just straightforwardly unpleasant.

 

[PTK]

Reggae specifically? Whilst I am glad we do, no. But broadly, the enrichment other cultures bring then yes.

I think that this may be imponderable. It's like asking "what would I be like if I were a different person?"