Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Gramsci]

To answer my own question why is so called welfare dependency on same thread as concerns about immigration.

Elpenor and Dystopiary have pointed out about attitudes around welfare.

It's a similar mindset. Immigrants and those on benefits are both regarded as a problem to be dealt with.

They are amongst those with the weakest social power to defend themselves.

So become the easy targets to have a go at

 

[Humberto]

I do disagree with your second sentence. Sometimes the jobs aren't there, or they're completely unrealistic jobs - out of town where you need a car (and there's no govt support to learn to drive), shifts you can't manage with older kids/other caring responsibilities that aren't full time but are important, or the govt claims they have provided "courses" but the courses are CV writing repeatedly for six weeks.

If there are time limits and no jobs, what are people supposed to do? Crime seems the only real answer. Moving house often is not feasible, especially because the places with more jobs cost more to live in, because they have more jobs.

Very few people on unemployment benefits want to stay on them because they just don't pay enough. Some of them give it all the Billy big-balls and act as if they're doing great, and you might have met them, but they are lying.

There are often myths about job availabilities too which are trotted out. There are a lot of scammers for example and zero hours deals. There's also few ways in for those without an already solid CV that aren't in massive demand and taking loads of applications.

Proper support that is more carrot than stick? Sure. But if the jobs aren't there...

 

[Gramsci]

To lighten it up a bit my OH sent me this. I should get off my arse pull my socks up and get into financial services. If our cat can do it I can do it

 

[Gramsci]

I think our cat needs a good talking to about welfare dependency

 

[Dystopiary]

It's incredibly difficult these days to receive benefits whilst not working. To get sickness benefits you have to go through never ending test after test, treated like utter shit. Anything else you have to be shown to be looking for work, any work, work you haven't a chance of doing, applying for interviews you're unlikely to get for no other reason than to show the DWP that's what you're doing. And then there's the stigma heaped on by the corporate media. Relentless either way.

Ooh, no, I missed a bit.

This might have changed and others will know better but (up until recently at least - please correct me if that's changed though it won't be for the better) you're "allowed" to stay at home with your children until they're 8 years old. After that, it's find childcare and get a job, any job.

So you could be forced to get a job looking after someone else's children while someone else is forced to look after yours, or else you both won't have enough to feed your children.

 

[scifisam]

There are often myths about job availabilities too which are trotted out. There are a lot of scammers for example and zero hours deals. There's also few ways in for those without an already solid CV that aren't in massive demand and taking loads of applications.

Proper support that is more carrot than stick? Sure. But if the jobs aren't there...

And a few jobs that can't be filled because benefits are actually better than that, but that's the fault of the jobs. Like the minimum wage care inner London (E1) care home manager job I mentioned earlier, with shift work, overnights and tons of responsibility. Most people will get another job rather than do that, and if there aren't any other jobs, they still won't want that one.

And they shouldn't. Nobody should be exploited to that extent (everyone is exploited to some extent). Benefits have a tertiary function of making employers actually be worth working for. Or they should.

If that care home did ever find someone it's likely that the standards of care would have gone down because the person managing the home would have been underqualified, and inexperience, plus one or more from knackered from a second job, living in a shared room in a shared house, commuting a long way, and generally feeling like they were hard-done-by, because they actually were.

 

[Humberto]

And a few jobs that can't be filled because benefits are actually better than that, but that's the fault of the jobs. Like the minimum wage care inner London (E1) care home manager job, with shift work, overnights and tons of responsibility. Most people will get another job rather than do that, and if there aren't any other jobs, they still won't want that one.

And they shouldn't. Nobody should be exploited to that extent (everyone is exploited to some extent). Benefits have a tertiary function of making employers actually be worth working for. Or they should.

If that care home did ever find someone it's likely that the standards of care would have gone down because the person managing the home would have been underqualified, and inexperience, plus one or more from knackered from a second job, living in a shared room in a shared house, commuting a long way, and generally feeling like they were hard-done-by, because they actually were.

That line of work and its conditions, Amazon warehouses and security guarding being the fantastic options for many as far as I can tell. Tells its own story really.

 

[smokedout]

I think Trump is a self serving, dangerous, liar. A threat to American democracy. And an orange, ugly cunt.

And a lot of my colleagues, friends, and kids friends are Muslim. I live in the north mate and work in Bradford I’d hazard I’ve been in a lot more mosques, spoken to more Imam’s, and been to more nikkah’s than you.

Here’s my best mate from med school’s nikkah (both single Mums born in Dewsbury and Lambeth, both state school educated, saw each other through thick and thin, violent husbands, cared for each others kids whilst we studied, both now Consultants alhamdulillah).

And they're okay with you posting photos of their faces along with their birthplaces and details of past abusive relationships to score diversity points in an internet argument are they? You did check didn't you?

 

[smokedout]

Seriously Edie outing someone as a survivor with a photo and identifying information is a really shitty thing to do. You should edit that post.

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm not in every day and I'm missing bits but overall this thread really is the gift that keeps on giving.

I dont know but on reflection, 'alhamdulillah' might come across a bit ... virtue signally? If say I, a non-muslim, were to say it to a bunch of mostly non-muslims while mentioning my great muslim mates on a thread about immigration where I've mainly been looking a bit politically dodge.

So it's good nobody did that

 

[lengualo]

I don’t know. I’m just not convinced they’re in the interests of communities long term. If you go to an area where there is a lot of people on benefits compared to an area where there is a mix or majority working people you can see the difference. Literally see the despair. It costs nothing to keep your front garden tidy, to get your kids to school, to clean your home, take your kid to a GP appointment. But cycles of poverty and violence and benefits trap people (like Darren McGarvey shows).

Now one lens- the left- says give people more money in benefits and reduce poverty and you’ll break the cycle.

The other says the dependency and lack of self esteem and pride and meaning from working and contributing can’t be solved by giving more money making work pay less. In fact all you well meaningly do is perpetuate it.

I genuinely don’t know what I think rn.

But it’s not got much to do with immigrants- they rarely claim benefits, work hard, and their kids tend to do very well in school. Because they take opportunities. And good for them.

There can be many reasons for this. Dont judge people on benefits, and the majority of people who are claiming are working.

 

[lengualo]

I think that this may be imponderable. It's like asking "what would I be like if I were a different person?"

Haha, perhaps.

 

[Edie]

I disagree with this.

A universal income for everyone. Not loads, but enough to get by. No obligation to work. Let the employers line up for the interviews. So, why should I come work for you, then?

Easy to administer, too. It could be done using the existing tax system by starting everyone off on negative income tax.

I’m actually a believer in universal income

 

[lengualo]

How does it do that then? It does not create anything. It just pushes around the wealth others have created.

Public services and infrastructure have declined, so clearly the wealth accumulated by these organisations is not being used to improve our lives.

Whilst I agree with you, I dont think its good to use benefit to society to value what someone decides they want to do. Hedge fund manager is easy pickings, but there are also lots of other "not a real job" careers that aren't.

 

[nino_savatte]

Having a difference of opinion isn't ill informed or arrant bollocks.

Not all opinions are well-informed and many opinions are "arrant bollocks". For example, if I have an opinion that isn't based on a basic knowledge of astronomy, and claim that the earth is flat and then say, "well ,that's my opinion", I'm not only offering an ill-informed opinion, I'm also spouting arrant bollocks.

Happy to help.

 

[lengualo]

Yes but as Edie says its good for the economy. If you live a life of Porsche driving the financial sector is great.

I sometimes listen to Bloomberg radio on DAB. It's not directed at me and probably they assume someone like me would not listen.

Its quite revealing how these financial people go on when they think they are talking amongst themselves.

Definitely worth tuning into. Not just being here in my leftie bubble but listening to real world business

Has she been being snooty about having a porsche or something? I feel like I've missed some back story.

 

[Pickman's model]

Seriously, you made a jab at my intelligence and you don't understand why you got a negative response?

where did i make a jab at your intelligence? must say i'm sorely tempted now tho.

 

[lengualo]

Ooh, no, I missed a bit.

This might have changed and others will know better but (up until recently at least - please correct me if that's changed though it won't be for the better) you're "allowed" to stay at home with your children until they're 8 years old. After that, it's find childcare and get a job, any job.

So you could be forced to get a job looking after someone else's children while someone else is forced to look after yours, or else you both won't have enough to feed your children.

Thats a good point, but adjacent to this, I know few if any parents who dont want a job of some description as soon as their kids are in school. The problem becomes whether anything is viable.

 

[lengualo]

where did i make a jab at your intelligence? must say i'm sorely tempted now tho.

We carrying this on? You made a shit dig at my reading comprehension and it wasnt the first time you've been patronising towards me, you're seemingly unaware of how snark affects what you say. So I'll freely admit I could be reading you incorrectly.

I'm disengaging from it though, Im not into stupid forum drama.

 

[lengualo]

Not all opinions are well-informed and many opinions are "arrant bollocks". For example, if I have an opinion that isn't based on a basic knowledge of astronomy, and claim that the earth is flat and then say, "well ,that's my opinion", I'm not only offering an ill-informed opinion, I'm also spouting arrant bollocks.

Happy to help.

What did I say that was arrant bollocks then?

 

[nino_savatte]

What did I say that was arrant bollocks then?

What? Are you trolling me?

 

[Pickman's model]

We carrying this on? You made a shit dig at my reading comprehension and it wasnt the first time you've been patronising towards me, you're seemingly unaware of how snark affects what you say. So I'll freely admit I could be reading you incorrectly.

I'm disengaging from it though, Im not into stupid forum drama.

Snark is in the eye of the beholder. Comprehension is not intelligence. You can be the smartest person in a room and understand what's being said - intelligence is not comprehension, the ability to learn and apply knowledge is not the same as understanding. An example: one of my a level maths teachers introduced differential equations by saying he didn't understand them but he'd show us how to apply them. He was a clever, cultured man but didn't understand everything he taught. E2a once you interpose snark between what other people say and you, you erect a barrier to your understanding.

 

[PTK]

.

 

[Serge Forward]

Yes but as Edie says its good for the economy. If you live a life of Porsche driving the financial sector is great.

I sometimes listen to Bloomberg radio on DAB. It's not directed at me and probably they assume someone like me would not listen.

Its quite revealing how these financial people go on when they think they are talking amongst themselves.

Definitely worth tuning into. Not just being here in my leftie bubble but listening to real world business

I'll tell you what is good for the economy (i.e. capitalism)... unemployment. Can't remember which Tory twat it was a few years back, banging on about how a level of unemployment was necessary to fill the coffers of the ruling class (Osborne maybe? Or the then head of the Bank of England? Of course, Thatcher went high and set it at around 3 million, not including all the 16-18 year olds removed from the figures to make it look a bit lower for propaganda purposes). Whoever it was, they helpfully admitted in public that unemployment was an economic benefit and referred to "normal" unemployment levels and how zero unemployment is a bad thing (for capitalism obvs).

Now it's one thing for certain Urban posters to be happily punching down at the oft slandered idle, feckless, don't want to work hordes fucking up the social fabric of this great nation... But how about a little more respect for the reserve army that is gallantly used by the bosses to suppress wages and provide a visible threat to those of us with jobs?

Complaints? Don't like the boss? Shit conditions? Bullshit wage? Never mind, there's tons out there who'd happily take on your job for all its shittiness (even though they're apparently lazy), so you better knuckle under and crack on, or else...

 

[lengualo]

What? Are you trolling me?

No, I want to know specifically what I've said thay was arrant bollocks. If someone accuses you of talking arrant bollocks I think its perfectly reasonable to ask what said arrant bollocks is.

If we're talking about my views towards class, it appears I mostly am on the same page as the person I was talking to and was able to have a thoughtful exchange with them. Im more than happy to be educated by people who are respectful.

If we're talking about my posts re the benefits of inmigration, where someone inferred a class swipe in a post where I didnt mention class and was thinking just as much as the middle classes as working classes.

Also keep in mind, I sit on a line between dialogue and evisceration where immigration, racism and xebophobia are concerned so I freely admit I might not come across perfectly when talking about an emotive topic.

 

[Edie]

I do disagree with your second sentence. Sometimes the jobs aren't there, or they're completely unrealistic jobs - out of town where you need a car (and there's no govt support to learn to drive), shifts you can't manage with older kids/other caring responsibilities that aren't full time but are important, or the govt claims they have provided "courses" but the courses are CV writing repeatedly for six weeks.

If there are time limits and no jobs, what are people supposed to do? Crime seems the only real answer. Moving house often is not feasible, especially because the places with more jobs cost more to live in, because they have more jobs.

Very few people on unemployment benefits want to stay on them because they just don't pay enough. Some of them give it all the Billy big-balls and act as if they're doing great, and you might have met them, but they are lying.

I’ve never known a situation where there are not jobs available. My hospital is pretty much permanently advertising for housekeepers and HCAs with training attached, local restaurants are so desperate for staff that they’re having to close some days of the week, telesales which my son does is bottom entry work that you can raise up in etc.

There’s not wanting to do a job?

 

[lengualo]

.

Are you saying that post was me talking arrant bollocks? I don't get the . thing here, what is that?

Whilst I agree with you, I dont think its good to use benefit to society to value what someone decides they want to do. Hedge fund manager is easy pickings, but there are also lots of other "not a real job" careers that aren't.

I'm all for slagging off hedge fund managers, not because they aren't a benefit to society but because their job is often harmful to society, much like a drug dealer. I dislike judging jobs based on their "benefit to society", as an artist by trade I was told relentlessly growing up that I needed to focus on a "real job". From my experiences "benefit to society" and "real job" and "know your place" come hand in hand.

I'm gonna go somewhere with this, but its gonna be long winded, as is my style. I was also dissuaded from going to college with an intention to go to university by my high school by our careers adviser for "reasons", and they suggested various manual labour jobs. I was also told I'd never amount to anything. We can infer all kinds of reasons why, but the council estate and parents being carers for a disabled child obviously come into it.

I ignored them, I went to college, was amongst the top of my class in the final year, went to uni and got a good degree, and sought out a career in the creative fields. I've been relatively successful but am persistently judged by certain types of people (most tbh) for not having a "real job", after the economic downturn where I fell on hard times like most people did, for me it was because I didn't have a "real job". I also remember certain family members telling me I should get a "real job" in the factory where I am doing something useful instead of any of this hoity-toity-artsy stuff and universities.

I dislike equating peoples career choices against benefit to society because it invariably leads people to judge peoples career choices based on an abstract notion of benefit that is highly open to interpretation. It also invariably leads to children being persuaded down certain career paths based on their socio-economic background because in their heads they think "you're from this background so this job is your place, and how you can be most productive to us".

This is a critique and matter of opinion, not an academic statement of fact. But does agree with my experiences in life and those of many of my peers for whom I have discussed this topic with. I make no allusions to this being academic discourse.

 

[lengualo]

I’ve never known a situation where there are not jobs available. My hospital is pretty much permanently advertising for housekeepers and HCAs with training attached, local restaurants are so desperate for staff that they’re having to close some days of the week, telesales which my son does is bottom entry work that you can raise up in etc.

There’s not wanting to do a job?

Lets see...

A lot of positions are zero hour contracts which you cannot rely on. You'd probably have better luck being newly self employed for wage security. For those who have commitments such as being a parent, the flexibility is usually a con in the first place because its flexible for them, not flexible for you.

Even if it isn't a zero hour contract, a lot of positions are either temporary so you will have the risk of being left high and dry and going through the benefits system again. If you don't have savings then thats a big problem too. Its funny you mention restaurants because they typically hire students part time, on zero hour contracts, and the positions are highly volatile - a lot of people cannot rely on it. Telesales is an absolute shit show and is a whole topic of its own.

Whilst there might be a lot of jobs many are seasonal, temp, zero hours, expoitative, and not reliable.

telesales which my son does is bottom entry work that you can raise up in

Can you please explain to me how one raises up in telesales?

 

[PTK]

NB to all posters.
The posting of a fully stop does not mean anything other than that I was going to reply, but realised that I could not get my words together in a form with which I would be happy.

 

[lengualo]

NB to all posters.
The posting of a fully stop does not mean anything other than that I was going to reply, but realised that I could not get my words together in a form with which I would be happy.

Ah I see, I've seen it a lot here and I thought it was some kind of "^ this".