Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Puddy_Tat]

I was once wondered what it meant, and I thought it meant "spot on", i.e. that they agreed. Then I had problems, when I began replying, and then wanted to cancel. The only way to do that is by deleting what you have written, but you still have to press the "post reply" button to get out of reply mode. A kind person explained this to me.

Not quite - there is the 'delete draft' option - click on the little arrow next to the floppy disc thing, and 'delete draft' is an option, then just go to another page.

like so -



there isn't an option to delete a post once you have posted it (either because you realise someone else posted the same thing while you were typing it, or you realise you've posted in the wrong thread, or just decided you really didn't want to say that) so that's what i thought the . was for...

 

[PTK]

Not quite - there is the 'delete draft' option - click on the little arrow next to the floppy disc thing, and 'delete draft' is an option, then just go to another page.

like so -

View attachment 440878

there isn't an option to delete a post once you have posted it (either because you realise someone else posted the same thing while you were typing it, or you realise you've posted in the wrong thread, or just decided you really didn't want to say that) so that's what i thought the . was for...

Thank you! That is very useful to me, who has posted rather a large number of dots recently.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Thank you! That is very useful to me, who has posted rather a large number of dots recently.

I'm not sure you're allowed to post in morse code

 

[PTK]

I'm not sure you're allowed to post in morse code

How else would you dash off a quick reply?

 

[Edie]

Can you please explain to me how one raises up in telesales?

My lads done just this. Started at 18 on apprenticeship wage (below minimum wage), now three years on he has built a client base, earns commission and is bringing home about £30k a year. My boy isn’t academic, this wasn’t some fantastic opportunity he was lucky to get, it’s a minimum entry sales job in Bradford. He just turns up and works hard. He will create his own opportunities in life just like me and his Dad and frankly my partner did.

The number of his cohort who were simply unable to turn up regularly and work hard was incredible. They went from 180 recruits to 5 in three years. Yes it’s not glamorous, the location is pretty dire, it wasn’t well paid for the first couple of years, but getting it, keeping it and getting on with it did not require luck, ability or connections. Just a work ethic.

Why did so many of this cohort drop out? Why did some of them have their Mums ringing up making excuses for them not being in ffs as grown arse young men. Who knows. But the fact remains- if you live in Bradford that jobs always hiring and you can learn skills and experience doing it, and then you can move on to better things if you want.

 

[brogdale]

People need opportunities not handouts.

Do you disagree with this?

Yes.

This is an stale arrogant, patronising and ill-informed Thatcherite trope.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a state handout. The reasons why some transfer payments made by the state have survived nearly 50 years of neoliberal acceleration is to ensure that capitalists paying below living wage are subsidised and that the starving hordes are kept from your "gated communities" and Porsche garages. Welfare payments therefore amount to little more than corporate welfare and expenditure to keep the bourgeoise safe. So you can fuck right off with your nasty classist pejorative of "handout".

Secondly, the notion of the neoliberal state as a provider of "opportunities" is risible. The fact that 40% of UC claimants are in work shows that employment "opportunities" equate to poverty in neoliberal Britain.

I still don't really understand what you're getting from posting such stuff on Urban.

 

[Edie]

There has been research into this and it's because unfortunately society has got sicker over the last 5-20 years.

Lots of reasons for this. Long term poor investment in health, Covid and long term affects - we are seeing long Covid and higher rates of ME that was chronically under funded already, waiting lists and poor general access to health care for both physical and mental health. Poor health outcomes overwhelmingly affects areas with high rates of poverty and these areas also tend to have worse access to services many of which were cut over the last 16 years.

Also I have no stats for this, but during the Osborne era and the introduction of UC and PIP many people lost benefits that they were entitled too and never challenged it - the high levels of appeal success backs this up. I suspect many people are now applying again and they are being accepted as it should likely have never been removed in the first place. Of course the usual suspects are all over this demanding that Britain gets back to work, without actually addressing the underlying issues for this.

Why are we so ill? The working-age health crisis

The number of under 65s struggling with poor health is rising - and it's a threat to the economy.

www.bbc.co.uk

The hostile environment towards people who claim benefits I believe creates deep issues. The negative connotations of "state handouts" doesn't help with this. They are vital in the society that we live in as they either give people the time to get treatment for their condition and to recover without the pressure of finding paid work, or it enables someone who is not able to work, or requires additional income due to the costs of their disability to live as normal a life as possible.

Sanctions have a devastating affect on someone's health. I've watched someone close to me decline into very poor mental health to the point we thought he may have psychosis. It was only once we realised the extreme pressure he was under and difficulties with his housing that we realised what was happening. Amazingly once we managed to get him rehoused (the HA were genuinely great) and he had a regular income without decronian measures being put into place he fully recovered. He was even able to get a part time job that he maintained as he had the basics in place. It wasn't sanction that helped him, but the support of people around him and a secure income from his UC.

I have to deconstruct a lot of the stigma around benefits (please stop calling them state handouts) and taking time away from work if required so that people are actually able to make a better recovery. I believe that has much better outcomes than the stick and carrot approach long term.

I would absolutely love a world that was built more along mutual aid with less state interference, but unfortunately that is a long way off so it is important not to allow welfare to be hollowed out and demonised in the way that it has been.

The absolute Byzantine nature of the benefits system is one of the reasons I’m for considering universal income. Plus minimising administration costs. Plus it means people who are sick or suddenly thrown into unemployment through no fault of their own have immediate safety net. It’s also fair.

I’m not against society supporting the sick or disabled. Or those whose circumstances change suddenly.

But those who are not sick or disabled and can work should.

I’ve done a fair few Med3s and whilst the majority are obviously genuine, not every one is. People can and will game the system, from tax evasion to benefit fraud.

 

[cesare]

Med3s are just fitnotes or in old money sick notes ffs

 

[PTK]

Then, of course, there are those in financial services, who do not create wealth, merely help redistribue the wealth created by others. Their income is a series of rather large handouts.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Med3s are just fitnotes or in old money sick notes ffs

Changing 'sick note' to 'fit note' is one of the most egregious bits of newspeak bullshit in my lifetime I think. It's callous, cruel and idiotic.

 

[lengualo]

My lads done just this. Started at 18 on apprenticeship wage (below minimum wage), now three years on he has built a client base, earns commission and is bringing home about £30k a year. My boy isn’t academic, this wasn’t some fantastic opportunity he was lucky to get, it’s a minimum entry sales job in Bradford. He just turns up and works hard. He will create his own opportunities in life just like me and his Dad and frankly my partner did.

The number of his cohort who were simply unable to turn up regularly and work hard was incredible. They went from 180 recruits to 5 in three years. Yes it’s not glamorous, the location is pretty dire, it wasn’t well paid for the first couple of years, but getting it, keeping it and getting on with it did not require luck, ability or connections. Just a work ethic.

Why did so many of this cohort drop out? Why did some of them have their Mums ringing up making excuses for them not being in ffs as grown arse young men. Who knows. But the fact remains- if you live in Bradford that jobs always hiring and you can learn skills and experience doing it, and then you can move on to better things if you want.

Its nice that he has earned a salary he is happy with, has a good work ethic, and plugged away at it, but I wasn't asking how much he earns. I asked about career progression which is a different thing. Btw, you're kinda talking like its the 90's, but thats another topic.

There are a few things with this...


1. As you rightly point out, someone in telesales is mostly going to be dependent upon commission. Their starting rates will be well below minimum wage, and its going to take at least a year or two for them to be able to build enough experience to start making a credible earning from it, if its even possible for the team to do so at all. The median salary for telesales executives is below or a little higher than minimum wage and opportunities beyond that are limited. And thats assuming they are in a centre who have a half marketable product to sell and are targeting customers who still answer their phones in the first place. The vast majority of telemarketing opportunities are either not viable or even outright scams.

Considering the vast majority of Gen-Z and Millennials habitually do not answer their phones to unknown or unexpected numbers, this is a very narrow and rapidly shrinking marketplace. As a result, the vast majority of call centres are a dead end opportunity that they are highly unlikely to succeed in and the industry is fast moving towards social media and influencer campaigns which are largely in the hands of advertising and creative agencies.

So whilst people have sustainable incomes in telesales, this is generally not the case.

You make out like people don't turn up because they're lazy, yet it hasn't occurred to you that perhaps it isn't worth their time or losing any support they might get if they were to undertake that work is a deal breaker. They could also be aware that this is probably not a viable, long term proposition for them (statistically, it isn't) and that if they go for it then they could well be stuck in a rut. You're also discounting that you are quite well off and can support your 18 year old in doing whatever he chooses to do and he probably has a healthy inheritance to look forward to which does change the way people approach stuff in life.


2. What you described isn't career progression. Realistically you will only progress in as much as the call centre - this is what is meant by a dead end, depressing work that cannot or is highly unlikely to go anywhere outside of its immediate environment. In advertising and marketing your career progression moves through spaces like advertising and marketing agencies, campaign strategy, omnisales campaigns, influencer campaigns and PR, corporate marketing departments, the likes. These spaces are looking for a completely different skillsets and the industry as I highlighted above is dying and moving towards social media and influencers.


So peddling the number of telemarketing opportunities out there isn't helpful in the real world.

You also took a swipe at teens getting mummy to call in sick. Whilst this is something that can happen with youngsters in any field, the majority arrive, see that the rate offered was misleading, feel mislead and quit without giving the courtesy of telling you because they feel that they engaged under false pretenses

 

[cesare]

Its nice that he has earned a salary he is happy with, has a good work ethic, and plugged away at it, but I wasn't asking how much he earns. I asked about career progression which is a different thing. Btw, you're kinda talking like its the 90's, but thats another topic.

There are a few things with this...


1. As you rightly point out, someone in telesales is mostly going to be dependent upon commission. Their starting rates will be well below minimum wage, and its going to take at least a year or two for them to be able to build enough experience to start making a credible earning from it, if its even possible for the team to do so at all. The median salary for telesales executives is below or a little higher than minimum wage and opportunities beyond that are limited. And thats assuming they are in a centre who have a half marketable product to sell and are targeting customers who still answer their phones in the first place. The vast majority of telemarketing opportunities are either not viable or even outright scams.

Considering the vast majority of Gen-Z and Millennials habitually do not answer their phones to unknown or unexpected numbers, this is a very narrow and rapidly shrinking marketplace. As a result, the vast majority of call centres are a dead end opportunity that they are highly unlikely to succeed in and the industry is fast moving towards social media and influencer campaigns which are largely in the hands of advertising and creative agencies.

So whilst people have sustainable incomes in telesales, this is generally not the case.

You make out like people don't turn up because they're lazy, yet it hasn't occurred to you that perhaps it isn't worth their time or losing any support they might get if they were to undertake that work is a deal breaker. They could also be aware that this is probably not a viable, long term proposition for them (statistically, it isn't) and that if they go for it then they could well be stuck in a rut. You're also discounting that you are quite well off and can support your 18 year old in doing whatever he chooses to do and he probably has a healthy inheritance to look forward to which does change the way people approach stuff in life.


2. What you described isn't career progression. Realistically you will only progress in as much as the call centre - this is what is meant by a dead end, depressing work that cannot or is highly unlikely to go anywhere outside of its immediate environment. In advertising and marketing your career progression moves through spaces like advertising and marketing agencies, campaign strategy, omnisales campaigns, influencer campaigns and PR, corporate marketing departments, the likes. These spaces are looking for a completely different skillsets and the industry as I highlighted above is dying and moving towards social media and influencers.


So peddling the number of telemarketing opportunities out there isn't helpful in the real world.

Is there any chance you could do a 3 or 4 sentence summary at the beginning or end? The TLDR thing?

 

[brogdale]

I’ve done a fair few Med3s and whilst the majority are obviously genuine, not every one is. People can and will game the system, from tax evasion to benefit fraud.

In Paediatrics?

 

[lengualo]

Is there any chance you could do a 3 or 4 sentence summary at the beginning or end? The TLDR thing?

Sorry I have a tendency to vomit out my thoughts with terrible grammar whilst doing something else at the same time.

Tldr: most telesales opportunities arent a viable opportunity for people who actually need paying, rope people in under false pretences, are a dying industry, and are full of scams.

 

[PTK]

Sorry I have a tendency to vomit out my thoughts with terrible grammar whilst doing something else at the same time.

Tldr: most telesales opportunities arent viable, rope people in under false pretences, are a dying industry, and are full of scams.

Both your original post and the summary are fine.

 

[Elpenor]

As long as we still need cleaners, who are almost certainly more useful to society than telemarketers, and as long as cleaners are paid at minimum wage then the lovely story about someone working hard at telemarketing and getting a pay rise and a promotion doesn’t really do much for me.

It just sounds like the American dream on a micro level - one persons success justifies everyone else failing. Gore Vidal had a quote along those lines I think too

(Edit - not to say that someone who is a cleaner is failing, I suppose I mean that it’s an industry that’s not valued and these workers are very often exploited by the bosses, it was a post written in haste and I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my point. For the record I have both worked as a cleaner and worked for a FM company as payroll manager)

 

[PTK]

My Mum was a cleaner in the local cinema and she worked her way up from the front row to the back row.

 

[MickiQ]

My Mum was a cleaner in the local cinema and she worked her way up from the front row to the back row.

every night I would imagine

 

[PTK]

every night I would imagine

No, the cinema was cleaned in the morning.

 

[brogdale]

My Mum was a cleaner in the local cinema and she worked her way up from the front row to the back row.

Stalls to Circle, shirley?

 

[PTK]

Stalls to Circle, shirley?

There was no circle.

 

[lengualo]

As long as we still need cleaners, who are almost certainly more useful to society than telemarketers, and as long as cleaners are paid at minimum wage then the lovely story about someone working hard at telemarketing and getting a pay rise and a promotion doesn’t really do much for me.

It just sounds like the American dream on a micro level - one persons success justifies everyone else failing. Gore Vidal had a quote along those lines I think too

True. And this isn't to mention that earning £30k doesn't mean much without knowing the annual salary year on year since he started. For all we know he might have only earned minimum wage from the position thus far in exchange for 4 years on poverty pay.

 

[LakieLady]

Ooh, no, I missed a bit.

This might have changed and others will know better but (up until recently at least - please correct me if that's changed though it won't be for the better) you're "allowed" to stay at home with your children until they're 8 years old. After that, it's find childcare and get a job, any job.

So you could be forced to get a job looking after someone else's children while someone else is forced to look after yours, or else you both won't have enough to feed your children.

It's different under UC. Firstly, it's about the money, not the hours, so someone on a better salary can work fewer hours than someone on NMW.

A single parent of a primary school aged child is expected to earn the equivalent of 25xNMW per week, for a pre-school aged child it's lower. It goes up when the child reaches secondary age, but I can't recall what to. A couple would be expected to earn 50xNMW pw between them.

They're bastards in the way they calculate it, too. My daughter in law was doing 30 hours pw, term time only when her child started school. Because her salary was paid over 12 months, it averaged out at tad under 25xNMW pw and she got hassle to get a second job in the school holidays. She got a promotion which took her above the threshold before they started imposing job-search requirements, thankfully.

It's shit for claimants on emergency tax codes. It's based on net pay, which is lower than it ought to be, but work coaches don't seem to get this and expect people to increase their working hours to make up the shortfall caused by the tax overpayment. I have a Very Stern Letter that I give to clients to pass on to their work coaches that points this out, and asks for conditionality to be suspended until HMRC sort themselves out. And if that doesn't work, I help them put in a complaint.

 

[PTK]

It's different under UC. Firstly, it's about the money, not the hours, so someone on a better salary can work fewer hours than someone on NMW.

A single parent of a primary school aged child is expected to earn the equivalent of 25xNMW per week, for a pre-school aged child it's lower. It goes up when the child reaches secondary age, but I can't recall what to. A couple would be expected to earn 50xNMW pw between them.

They're bastards in the way they calculate it, too. My daughter in law was doing 30 hours pw, term time only when her child started school. Because her salary was paid over 12 months, it averaged out at tad under 25xNMW pw and she got hassle to get a second job in the school holidays. She got a promotion which took her above the threshold before they started imposing job-search requirements, thankfully.

It's shit for claimants on emergency tax codes. It's based on net pay, which is lower than it ought to be, but work coaches don't seem to get this and expect people to increase their working hours to make up the shortfall caused by the tax overpayment. I have a Very Stern Letter that I give to clients to pass on to their work coaches that points this out, and asks for conditionality to be suspended until HMRC sort themselves out. And if that doesn't work, I help them put in a complaint.

Someone I know has a couple of children and is on Universal Credit and she has had some bad experiences, as, of course, have others. I am glad that there are people like you who help people like my friend.

 

[Edie]

Its nice that he has earned a salary he is happy with, has a good work ethic, and plugged away at it, but I wasn't asking how much he earns. I asked about career progression which is a different thing. Btw, you're kinda talking like its the 90's, but thats another topic.

There are a few things with this...


1. As you rightly point out, someone in telesales is mostly going to be dependent upon commission. Their starting rates will be well below minimum wage, and its going to take at least a year or two for them to be able to build enough experience to start making a credible earning from it, if its even possible for the team to do so at all. The median salary for telesales executives is below or a little higher than minimum wage and opportunities beyond that are limited. And thats assuming they are in a centre who have a half marketable product to sell and are targeting customers who still answer their phones in the first place. The vast majority of telemarketing opportunities are either not viable or even outright scams.

Considering the vast majority of Gen-Z and Millennials habitually do not answer their phones to unknown or unexpected numbers, this is a very narrow and rapidly shrinking marketplace. As a result, the vast majority of call centres are a dead end opportunity that they are highly unlikely to succeed in and the industry is fast moving towards social media and influencer campaigns which are largely in the hands of advertising and creative agencies.

So whilst people have sustainable incomes in telesales, this is generally not the case.

You make out like people don't turn up because they're lazy, yet it hasn't occurred to you that perhaps it isn't worth their time or losing any support they might get if they were to undertake that work is a deal breaker. They could also be aware that this is probably not a viable, long term proposition for them (statistically, it isn't) and that if they go for it then they could well be stuck in a rut. You're also discounting that you are quite well off and can support your 18 year old in doing whatever he chooses to do and he probably has a healthy inheritance to look forward to which does change the way people approach stuff in life.


2. What you described isn't career progression. Realistically you will only progress in as much as the call centre - this is what is meant by a dead end, depressing work that cannot or is highly unlikely to go anywhere outside of its immediate environment. In advertising and marketing your career progression moves through spaces like advertising and marketing agencies, campaign strategy, omnisales campaigns, influencer campaigns and PR, corporate marketing departments, the likes. These spaces are looking for a completely different skillsets and the industry as I highlighted above is dying and moving towards social media and influencers.


So peddling the number of telemarketing opportunities out there isn't helpful in the real world.

You also took a swipe at teens getting mummy to call in sick. Whilst this is something that can happen with youngsters in any field, the majority arrive, see that the rate offered was misleading, feel mislead and quit without giving the courtesy of telling you because they feel that they engaged under false pretenses

Sorry but this is just bullshit. It reads like a bunch of excuses. It’s just not based in the real world experience of my lad who I actually live with. My kids weren’t born with a silver spoon in their mouths. They spent six years in a back to back, then a ex council, went to a state school in a deprived area of Leeds, been raised by a single Mum and kinda a Dad. My eldest had a head injury from a shelf falling out the wall of a rented flat as a neonate and lost the sight in an eye and got facial disfigurement. What they have got is a (fairly dysfunctional) family around them that tells them there is no excuse and will help them navigate and make good choices.

And if there is an inheritance for them it’s because me and their Dad have created that. From nothing.

It could’ve gone another direction. He could have got into crime (we had a few brushes). Thank God he didn’t. I’ve made a million mistakes, it’s been hard.

But… Life is hard. It’s hard for everyone. What makes it bearable is to have hope and drive it forward. Because if you lose hope and your life narrows to four walls and a belief that you can’t ever escape then what then?

 

[Edie]

As long as we still need cleaners, who are almost certainly more useful to society than telemarketers, and as long as cleaners are paid at minimum wage then the lovely story about someone working hard at telemarketing and getting a pay rise and a promotion doesn’t really do much for me.

It just sounds like the American dream on a micro level - one persons success justifies everyone else failing. Gore Vidal had a quote along those lines I think too

(Edit - not to say that someone who is a cleaner is failing, I suppose I mean that it’s an industry that’s not valued and these workers are very often exploited by the bosses, it was a post written in haste and I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my point. For the record I have both worked as a cleaner and worked for a FM company as payroll manager)

Nothing wrong with working as a cleaner. They keep the NHS and the rest of society turning over.

 

[Gramsci]

Then, of course, there are those in financial services, who do not create wealth, merely help redistribue the wealth created by others. Their income is a series of rather large handouts.

Spot on. I mentioned Bloomberg radio earlier on. It's for these financial services people. Real eye opener listening to that late at night. And at times interesting. Capitalism crosses borders. There are no borders for financial services.

Live Radio - Bloomberg

Stream Bloomberg Audio online for free. Get global business and financial news covering the top companies, industries and more 24 hours a day.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Gramsci]

This has been on my mind to read for some time. Never got around to it.

Reading the last few pages of this thread reminded me of it.

Think I will give it a read.

Paul Lafargue: The Right To Be Lazy (1883)

Paul Lafargue: The Right To Be Lazy (1883)

www.marxists.org

Why is work such a good thing? Like its a moral imperative that one has to work. However pointless it is.

 

[Gramsci]

One of the better things about Anarchism is that they critique Work.

People like Colin Ward looked at importance of play. And how its not taken seriously in society

 

[bellaozzydog]

People can and will game the system, from tax evasion to benefit fraud.

Take a wild stab in the dark and guess which is astronomically higher than the other