Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Gramsci]

It's a dehumanising process at the moment.

Which is exactly what its designed to be.

Which reminds of the parallel with how the immigration system works.

Started reading Maya Goodfellow book on asylum seekers and she demonstrates how the whole process they go through is as one was told meant to give one a hard time. It's not accidental. It's how its designed to work.

From reams of forms to fill in, hard to understand legislation etc

After brogdale mentioned the Guardian article I decided to read the book.

Hostile Environment

Longlisted for the 2019 Jhalak Prize. From the 1960s the UK’s immigration policy - introduced by both Labour and Tory governments - has been a toxic combination of racism and xenophobia. Maya Goodfellow tracks this history through to the present day, looking at both legislation and rhetoric, to...

www.versobooks.com

So far a good read.

How the State treat the less well off and migrants is similar

 

[bellaozzydog]

Take a wild stab in the dark and guess which is astronomically higher than the other

2023 tax gap/loss 4.8% of total tax owed = £35.8 billion

2024, 2.8% of benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud, =
£7.4 billion

Tax the rich and corporations till they fucking squeal

 

[Puddy_Tat]

How the State treat the less well off and migrants is similar

“The way a government treats refugees is very instructive because it shows you how they would treat the rest of us if they thought they could get away with it.”

(attributed to but there is some doubt about it) Tony Benn

 

[xenon]

The absolute Byzantine nature of the benefits system is one of the reasons I’m for considering universal income. Plus minimising administration costs. Plus it means people who are sick or suddenly thrown into unemployment through no fault of their own have immediate safety net. It’s also fair.

I’m not against society supporting the sick or disabled. Or those whose circumstances change suddenly.

But those who are not sick or disabled and can work should.

I’ve done a fair few Med3s and whilst the majority are obviously genuine, not every one is. People can and will game the system, from tax evasion to benefit fraud.

I don’t really disagree with any of this. Except to say the focus should be on Corporate tax avoidance. Rather than harassing people on disability benefits back to work and so on. I’ll come back to this if it’s worthwhile from my own perspective. As typing a properly in my phone is a pain in the arse.

 

[xenon]

As long as we still need cleaners, who are almost certainly more useful to society than telemarketers, and as long as cleaners are paid at minimum wage then the lovely story about someone working hard at telemarketing and getting a pay rise and a promotion doesn’t really do much for me.

It just sounds like the American dream on a micro level - one persons success justifies everyone else failing. Gore Vidal had a quote along those lines I think too

(Edit - not to say that someone who is a cleaner is failing, I suppose I mean that it’s an industry that’s not valued and these workers are very often exploited by the bosses, it was a post written in haste and I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my point. For the record I have both worked as a cleaner and worked for a FM company as payroll manager)

I didn’t read her post like that. But I’ll come back to it.

 

[lengualo]

Sorry but this is just bullshit. It reads like a bunch of excuses. It’s just not based in the real world experience of my lad who I actually live with. My kids weren’t born with a silver spoon in their mouths. They spent six years in a back to back, then a ex council, went to a state school in a deprived area of Leeds, been raised by a single Mum and kinda a Dad. My eldest had a head injury from a shelf falling out the wall of a rented flat as a neonate and lost the sight in an eye and got facial disfigurement. What they have got is a (fairly dysfunctional) family around them that tells them there is no excuse and will help them navigate and make good choices.

And if there is an inheritance for them it’s because me and their Dad have created that. From nothing.

It could’ve gone another direction. He could have got into crime (we had a few brushes). Thank God he didn’t. I’ve made a million mistakes, it’s been hard.

But… Life is hard. It’s hard for everyone. What makes it bearable is to have hope and drive it forward. Because if you lose hope and your life narrows to four walls and a belief that you can’t ever escape then what then?

I didn't say your son hasn't done well from it. I said, its good that he was able to. I don't begrudge anyone doing well, I'd love to see everyone live the best lives they can. As for the social position thing affording more flexibility, it does and you're the one who has bragged about your position.

What I said is true though, the average salary one can expect to earn starts well below minimum wage and through commission you can make a viable living from it. You said as much yourself, it was well below minimum wage and through performance he raised it. The average people make is a little below or a little above minimum wage and it typically takes a couple of years to see that. This is according to several recruitment companies that I double checked against whilst replying (just Google it).

The proportion of people who make money from telesales is low, its a very high turnover, poor satisfaction industry. Its a shrinking industry because the world is changing in how we communicate. A lot of job offerings are going nowhere, they're basically looking to rip a few people off trying to push insurance or some other generic service on OAPs for a bit.

If you've got bills to pay, then you cant take those risks. The issue isn't with people being on benefits, but the way in which companies attempt to bypass the NMW.

 

[smokedout]

The number of his cohort who were simply unable to turn up regularly and work hard was incredible. They went from 180 recruits to 5 in three years. Yes it’s not glamorous, the location is pretty dire, it wasn’t well paid for the first couple of years, but getting it, keeping it and getting on with it did not require luck, ability or connections. Just a work ethic.

This is normal and expected in tele-sales. It's witchcraft, some people are weirdly good at it but most are shit and it's virtually impossible to tell which without giving them a go. That's why sales companies do large recruitments, often luring people in with unrealistic promises of how much commission they'll be earning, and fully expecting to lay 95% of them off in the first six weeks for not hitting targets.

 

[Serge Forward]

The term "work ethic" really sets my teeth on edge. When I was on night shifts, I used to take a sleeping bag in for a couple of hours kip. Fuck management. I always told my two kids to never work without a union card, to be good at your job but skive when you can without making it obvious you're taking the piss, and to know when to look busy. Oh, and the bosses are bastards, even the nice ones. They've happily taken all this on board and are doing okay

Work ethic, my arse.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

as an immigrant: nope

 

[Saul Goodman]

The term "work ethic" really sets my teeth on edge. When I was on night shifts, I used to take a sleeping bag in for a couple of hours kip. Fuck management. I always told my two kids to never work without a union card, to be good at your job but skive when you can without making it obvious you're taking the piss, and to know when to look busy. Oh, and the bosses are bastards, even the nice ones. They've happily taken all this on board and are doing okay

Work ethic, my arse.

I used to go into work on a Monday morning after a hard weekend raving, clock on, then go and fall asleep in the toilet until first break at 10:30. Management eventually got wise to it and we agreed I wouldn't bother going in on Mondays, but the long weekend made me realise how shit work was, and I sacked it shortly after and took a few years off to enjoy myself.

Fuck work ethic. I was in no rush to become somebody my younger self would have despised, and I'm still not.

 

[Edie]

The term "work ethic" really sets my teeth on edge. When I was on night shifts, I used to take a sleeping bag in for a couple of hours kip. Fuck management. I always told my two kids to never work without a union card, to be good at your job but skive when you can without making it obvious you're taking the piss, and to know when to look busy. Oh, and the bosses are bastards, even the nice ones. They've happily taken all this on board and are doing okay

Work ethic, my arse.

lol we just dragged two chairs together or slept on the carpet in the mess if the sofa was taken. Not much chance of sleep tho the bleeps were generally relentless. Thanking god those brutal nights are done and non-residential on calls only ahead.

 

[PTK]

To get back on topic: I think that there should be immigration controls, in order that demand can be managed.

 

[mentalchik]

As long as we still need cleaners, who are almost certainly more useful to society than telemarketers, and as long as cleaners are paid at minimum wage then the lovely story about someone working hard at telemarketing and getting a pay rise and a promotion doesn’t really do much for me.

It just sounds like the American dream on a micro level - one persons success justifies everyone else failing. Gore Vidal had a quote along those lines I think too

(Edit - not to say that someone who is a cleaner is failing, I suppose I mean that it’s an industry that’s not valued and these workers are very often exploited by the bosses, it was a post written in haste and I hope that doesn’t detract too much from my point. For the record I have both worked as a cleaner and worked for a FM company as payroll manager)

he did, it's always stayed in my memory...was words to the effect that the 'american dream' was in fact a millstone around their necks, being led to believe that anyone could put in hard work and get everything that they wanted...when in fact it's bullshit and the whole system is rigged for the 20% that have all the wealth to stay in that position

 

[Gramsci]

Starmer’s macho talk on asylum seekers will only lead to more tragedy. Where is his humanity? | Maya Goodfellow

The way to ‘stop the boats’ is to create safe routes of travel. Instead, the Labour leader is obsessed with trying to appear tough, says the academic and author Maya Goodfellow

www.theguardian.com

Maya Goodfellow , whose book posted about up thread, wrote this for Guardian before the election.

She was correct and Labours Macho strategy is what is being pursued.

That it will ditch the Rwanda scheme but forge on with tough plans. That it is different from the Tories, but not too different. One of its motivations is winning over the mostly mythical “centre ground” voter

And

“Wealthy nations”, argue the academics Corey Robinson and Yvonne Su, hide behind the “evil smuggler narrative” and obscure “the role their policies play in creating the global market for smuggling in the first place”.

Safe routes could be established. But that's not going to happen under Labour.

 

[mojo pixy]

I’ve never known a situation where there are not jobs available. My hospital is pretty much permanently advertising for housekeepers and HCAs with training attached, local restaurants are so desperate for staff that they’re having to close some days of the week, telesales which my son does is bottom entry work that you can raise up in etc.

There’s not wanting to do a job?

Do you think that if someone doesn't want to work they should just be left to go homeless and hungry? What is our purpose on this planet?

 

[Gramsci]

Posts about pulling oneself up by ones bootstraps on a thread about immigration smack to me of an underlying resentment against immigrants and those who are deemed to be feckless.

 

[savoloysam]

Couldn't give a shit.

 

[teqniq]

Labour are making huge mistakes here:

Labour urged to drop Tory rhetoric or risk failing to fix broken asylum system

Exclusive: End focus on deportations and use language of ‘compassion and humanity’, says Refugee Council

www.theguardian.com

also cross posted from the Home Office thread, archived Fail article by Dan Hodges:

The biggest deportation flight in history and how Labour have drawn first blood in battle against the small boat crossings

 

[Gramsci]

Labour are making huge mistakes here:

Labour urged to drop Tory rhetoric or risk failing to fix broken asylum system

Exclusive: End focus on deportations and use language of ‘compassion and humanity’, says Refugee Council

www.theguardian.com

also cross posted from the Home Office thread, archived Fail article by Dan Hodges:

The biggest deportation flight in history and how Labour have drawn first blood in battle against the small boat crossings

I'm sure Starmer is happy he's getting thumbs up in Daily Mail.

 

[Gramsci]

Labour are making huge mistakes here:

Labour urged to drop Tory rhetoric or risk failing to fix broken asylum system

Exclusive: End focus on deportations and use language of ‘compassion and humanity’, says Refugee Council

www.theguardian.com

also cross posted from the Home Office thread, archived Fail article by Dan Hodges:

The biggest deportation flight in history and how Labour have drawn first blood in battle against the small boat crossings

Noticed this

Rwanda MK2

In practice not a lot of difference between Tories and Labour on this

Both punitive and heartless.

We’re not going back to the Rwanda scheme,’ one No 10 source told me. ‘It was a costly shambles. But we might have to look at some sort of offshore processing model to send a firm signal.’

 

[lengualo]

I'm sure Starmer is happy he's getting thumbs up in Daily Mail.

Oh the DM comments

 

[brogdale]

I'm sure Starmer is happy he's getting thumbs up in Daily Mail.

Yep, his administration will be exactly the sort of Parliamentary "opposition" that capital accepts.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, his administration will be exactly the sort of Parliamentary "opposition" that capital accepts.

Not just accepts but welcomes. Hedge funds already embedded in their transition teams

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh the DM comments

Never ever read dm comments

 

[lengualo]

Never ever read dm comments

I know, but it does serve to see what they say and how they get themselves all excited over the red meat. But I know I shouldn't look, its not healthy, just depressing.

 

[lengualo]

I remember reading many years ago that a lot of visa overstayers were from English speaking nations particularly Australia and New Zealand etc who probably wouldn’t have been considered immigrants due to their skin colour

This is kind of off topic or maybe trivial, but I just saw a new season of the TV show Emily in Paris had been released recently and it reminded me of this, particularly how the Anglosphere sees immigration on different terms for them and for us, it got a lot of stick for her breaking just about every complaint people have about integration but it, and most of its fans, were unaware because she is a white American abroad so it doesn't count. At one point she even lost her job, became unemployed and got other jobs afterwards without realising that she was an illegal immigrant at that point, the visa doesn't apply to her.

In the critiques afterwards, people talked about how common this actually is, and how its treat on completely different terms. Its largely ignored and never talked about.

 

[nino_savatte]

I didn't say all opinions should be treated equally, to read what I said in that way takes a healthy dose of inferrence. I also wasn't asking for a dissertation, I was asking what exactly I had said that you consider arrant bollocks in the first place. Context afterall is a thing.

You're not making sense. Do you know what the word "inference" means? Clue: it isn't the same as insinuate or imply. One more thing, I said that I wasn't asking for a dissertation and here you are repeating my words. Are you feeling okay?

 

[Gramsci]

Debunking the myth of the ‘evil people smuggler’ - Durham University

www.durham.ac.uk

This was linked in the Maya Goodfellow article I posted.

Not so much debunking as how anti immigration methods are justified by creating an evil bogey man. The people smugglers. It deflects attention from fact that UK and Europe harsh policies towards migrants creates a demand for people smugglers.

By portraying smuggling as dangerous, criminal and deadly, these nations obscure the role violent borders play in contributing to the conditions under which migrant smuggling proliferates.

And I think this counter intuitive view point makes sense,

Organized crime researchers Peter Tinti and Tuesday Reitano provide some additional nuance: “It is certainly true that smugglers profit from the desperation of others, but it is also true that in many cases smugglers save lives, create possibilities and redress global inequalities.”

 

[lengualo]

You're not making sense. Do you know what the word "inference" means? Clue: it isn't the same as insinuate or imply. One more thing, I said that I wasn't asking for a dissertation and here you are repeating my words. Are you feeling okay?

Ok, gracie por el classe de inglesa. Parace que mi idioma inglesa ha disminuido recientemente. Pero, arrogancia sobre los idiomas no es linda. I'd rather be someone who is imperfect in multiple languages, than the type who berrates someones ability in one, or even two, or whatever.

It seems you're not interested in talking to me in good faith though, so I'll bow out.

 

[Edie]

Do you think that if someone doesn't want to work they should just be left to go homeless and hungry? What is our purpose on this planet?

I’ve got no problem with people who don’t want to work so long as they don’t expect the community to pay their living. I’m actually currently not working for two months!