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Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

Ah I see, I've seen it a lot here and I thought it was some kind of "^ this".
I was once wondered what it meant, and I thought it meant "spot on", i.e. that they agreed. Then I had problems, when I began replying, and then wanted to cancel. The only way to do that is by deleting what you have written, but you still have to press the "post reply" button to get out of reply mode. A kind person explained this to me.
 
Snark is in the eye of the beholder. Comprehension is not intelligence. You can be the smartest person in a room and understand what's being said - intelligence is not comprehension, the ability to learn and apply knowledge is not the same as understanding. An example: one of my a level maths teachers introduced differential equations by saying he didn't understand them but he'd show us how to apply them. He was a clever, cultured man but didn't understand everything he taught. E2a once you interpose snark between what other people say and you, you erect a barrier to your understanding.

Literally the day before you told me to butt out of your conversation for replying to something. And sassed me out for repeating something earlier in the discussion under some expectation I should have read 60 pages of thread before engaging. It seems I shall resign myself to the fact you're not aware of how you come across and perhaps aren't intentionally trying to be antagonistic.
 
Literally the day before you told me to butt out of your conversation for replying to something. It seems I shall resign myself to the fact you're not aware of how you come across and perhaps aren't intentionally trying to be antagonistic.
It was Pickman's Model who explained the "." convention to me. He is basically a good egg.
 
Are you saying that post was me talking arrant bollocks? I don't get the . thing here, what is that?




I'm all for slagging off hedge fund managers, not because they aren't a benefit to society but because their job is often harmful to society, much like a drug dealer. I dislike judging jobs based on their "benefit to society", as an artist by trade I was told relentlessly growing up that I needed to focus on a "real job". From my experiences "benefit to society" and "real job" and "know your place" come hand in hand.

I'm gonna go somewhere with this, but its gonna be long winded, as is my style. I was also dissuaded from going to college with an intention to go to university by my high school by our careers adviser for "reasons", and they suggested various manual labour jobs. I was also told I'd never amount to anything. We can infer all kinds of reasons why, but the council estate and parents being carers for a disabled child obviously come into it.

I ignored them, I went to college, was amongst the top of my class in the final year, went to uni and got a good degree, and sought out a career in the creative fields. I've been relatively successful but am persistently judged by certain types of people (most tbh) for not having a "real job", after the economic downturn where I fell on hard times like most people did, for me it was because I didn't have a "real job". I also remember certain family members telling me I should get a "real job" in the factory where I am doing something useful instead of any of this hoity-toity-artsy stuff and universities.

I dislike equating peoples career choices against benefit to society because it invariably leads people to judge peoples career choices based on an abstract notion of benefit that is highly open to interpretation. It also invariably leads to children being persuaded down certain career paths based on their socio-economic background because in their heads they think "you're from this background so this job is your place, and how you can be most productive to us".

This is a critique and matter of opinion, not an academic statement of fact. But does agree with my experiences in life and those of many of my peers for whom I have discussed this topic with. I make no allusions to this being academic discourse.
I think that the point of people having an income is so that they can enjoy the arts, and other things.
Artists do not manage the wealth that has been extracted from the labour of others, unlike hedge fund managers. Hedge fund managers are part of, or agents of, the capitalist class.
 
Literally the day before you told me to butt out of your conversation for replying to something. And sassed me out for repeating something earlier in the discussion under some expectation I should have read 60 pages of thread before engaging. It seems I shall resign myself to the fact you're not aware of how you come across and perhaps aren't intentionally trying to be antagonistic.
Well, that's Pickman's model telt. I wonder if he'll like them apples?
 
I think that the point of people having an income is so that they can enjoy the arts, and other things.
Artists do not manage the wealth that has been extracted from the labour of others, unlike hedge fund managers. Hedge fund managers are part of, or agents of, the capitalist class.

I agree (although its not always exactly the case that artists don't extract the wealth of others in a commercial environment, because they do - the system works like that especially with dynamic collab teams), but I think this applies well in the political sciences but not so much in the social ones. I think "benefit to society" comes hand in hand with "real jobs" and "know your place" because of how people view careers through a lense of how useful or productive they perceive them to be, whilst simultaneously buying paintings, listening to music, watching movies, playing videogames, admiring the sleek design of their car or some product they have purchased, or toying with the swanky app with a cool UX.
 
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If you're going to do that, better to delete the quoted post as well.
Aplogies to everyone.
You are right, I should have deleted the quoted post as well.
I am annoyed with myself that I did not do that.
[Edit] I have now edited the post in question to remove the quotation.
 
Literally the day before you told me to butt out of your conversation for replying to something. And sassed me out for repeating something earlier in the discussion under some expectation I should have read 60 pages of thread before engaging. It seems I shall resign myself to the fact you're not aware of how you come across and perhaps aren't intentionally trying to be antagonistic.
I did not tell you to butt out. I said I hadn't sought your opinion and explained why. You seem to look for reasons to be snarky and you might want to ask yourself why you do this. If I were you I'd have taken umbrage at your assumption you're better read etc than me. Before casting stones in this particular glasshouse examine yourself and consider how you come across.
 
I did not tell you to butt out. I said I hadn't sought your opinion and explained why. You seem to look for reasons to be snarky and you might want to ask yourself why you do this. If I were you I'd have taken umbrage at your assumption you're better read etc than me. Before casting stones in this particular glasshouse examine yourself and consider how you come across.

OK, lets agree to disagree then. But I do examine myself, I said up thread that I tread a line between dialogue and evisceration on this topic so may not always come across the best. So I'm fully aware of how I come across.
 
You seem to have decided to make yourself disagreeable.

But I do examine myself, I said up thread that I tread a line between dialogue and evisceration on this topic so may not always come across the best and might give somewhat emotional responses. So I'm fully aware of how I come across. But OK.
 
No, I want to know specifically what I've said thay was arrant bollocks. If someone accuses you of talking arrant bollocks I think its perfectly reasonable to ask what said arrant bollocks is.

If we're talking about my views towards class, it appears I mostly am on the same page as the person I was talking to and was able to have a thoughtful exchange with them. Im more than happy to be educated by people who are respectful.

If we're talking about my posts re the benefits of inmigration, where someone inferred a class swipe in a post where I didnt mention class and was thinking just as much as the middle classes as working classes.

Also keep in mind, I sit on a line between dialogue and evisceration where immigration, racism and xebophobia are concerned so I freely admit I might not come across perfectly when talking about an emotive topic.
There's no need for a fucking dissertation, chief. You appeared to be claiming that all opinions should be treated equally. I'm telling you that isn't true. Many opinions are ill-informed and are arrant bollocks. You seem to have a problem with that.
 
There's no need for a fucking dissertation, chief. You appeared to be claiming that all opinions should be treated equally. I'm telling you that isn't true. Many opinions are ill-informed and are arrant bollocks. You seem to have a problem with that.

I didn't say all opinions should be treated equally, to read what I said in that way takes a healthy dose of inferrence. I also wasn't asking for a dissertation, I was asking what exactly I had said that you consider arrant bollocks in the first place. Context afterall is a thing.
 
I'm legitimately concernedView attachment 440864cerned


And this in the Guardian

The government deported more than 200 people to Brazil this month, the largest single deportation on record. Since Labour came to power there have been at least nine deportation charter flights.

Many undocumented individuals have lived in the UK for years or even decades and have established lives and families there. The letter states that a policy of regularisation would cost less than policies of detention and deportation and boost economic growth through increasing the number of people, who are already here, being able to contribute more to the economy.

New government would rather be seen to be coming down hard of migrants.

They want to show they are tougher than the Tories

Much better imo to regularise them.
 
There's loads of Brazilians in London. Easy way to make it look like one is getting the job done is to scoop some up and shove them on a flight.
 

And this in the Guardian





New government would rather be seen to be coming down hard of migrants.

They want to show they are tougher than the Tories

Much better imo to regularise them.

As ever.

And looping back to "maybe we should listen to concerns about the cultural backdrop of Muslims", they are being sent to the Americas, which reveals that the red meat isn't even targeting the demographic the concerned are worried about, just brown and black skinned people. Obvs.
 
As ever.

And looping back to "maybe we should listen to concerns about the cultural backdrop of Muslims", they are being sent to the Americas, which reveals that the red meat isn't even targeting the demographic the concerned are worried about, just brown and black skinned people. Obvs.

Brazilians are a mixture. Some are white and some not

For the government they are easy pickings.

Government can say look we've deported x number of illegal immigrants.

What's interesting is that this has nothing to do with people smugglers who put people on boats.

Brazilians are often visa overstayers.
 
Brazilians are a mixture. Some are white and some not

Yeah, I know, but the optics. Its like all of Latin America, people are light skinned to dark skinned, and whether we even say white is its own thing. But the perception is brown or black regardless. Without seeing them, the optics to the DM/Torygraph/GBeebies viewer is the same.


For the government they are easy pickings.

Government can say look we've deported x number of illegal immigrants.

Yep.

What's interesting is that this has nothing to do with people smugglers who put people on boats.

Brazilians are often visa overstayers.

They are, or were children when they came, or 2nd+ generation.
 
Also an increase in health-related benefits. There are now 4.2 million working-age individuals (10.2% of the working-age population) receiving at least one health-related benefit. This is up from 3.2 million in 2019 (7.9%).

One in ten!

There has been research into this and it's because unfortunately society has got sicker over the last 5-20 years.

Lots of reasons for this. Long term poor investment in health, Covid and long term affects - we are seeing long Covid and higher rates of ME that was chronically under funded already, waiting lists and poor general access to health care for both physical and mental health. Poor health outcomes overwhelmingly affects areas with high rates of poverty and these areas also tend to have worse access to services many of which were cut over the last 16 years.

Also I have no stats for this, but during the Osborne era and the introduction of UC and PIP many people lost benefits that they were entitled too and never challenged it - the high levels of appeal success backs this up. I suspect many people are now applying again and they are being accepted as it should likely have never been removed in the first place. Of course the usual suspects are all over this demanding that Britain gets back to work, without actually addressing the underlying issues for this.


The hostile environment towards people who claim benefits I believe creates deep issues. The negative connotations of "state handouts" doesn't help with this. They are vital in the society that we live in as they either give people the time to get treatment for their condition and to recover without the pressure of finding paid work, or it enables someone who is not able to work, or requires additional income due to the costs of their disability to live as normal a life as possible.

Sanctions have a devastating affect on someone's health. I've watched someone close to me decline into very poor mental health to the point we thought he may have psychosis. It was only once we realised the extreme pressure he was under and difficulties with his housing that we realised what was happening. Amazingly once we managed to get him rehoused (the HA were genuinely great) and he had a regular income without decronian measures being put into place he fully recovered. He was even able to get a part time job that he maintained as he had the basics in place. It wasn't sanction that helped him, but the support of people around him and a secure income from his UC.

I have to deconstruct a lot of the stigma around benefits (please stop calling them state handouts) and taking time away from work if required so that people are actually able to make a better recovery. I believe that has much better outcomes than the stick and carrot approach long term.

I would absolutely love a world that was built more along mutual aid with less state interference, but unfortunately that is a long way off so it is important not to allow welfare to be hollowed out and demonised in the way that it has been.
 
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Brazilians are a mixture. Some are white and some not

For the government they are easy pickings.

Government can say look we've deported x number of illegal immigrants.

What's interesting is that this has nothing to do with people smugglers who put people on boats.

Brazilians are often visa overstayers.
I remember reading many years ago that a lot of visa overstayers were from English speaking nations particularly Australia and New Zealand etc who probably wouldn’t have been considered immigrants due to their skin colour
 
There has been research into this and it's because unfortunately society has got sicker over the last 5-20 years.

Lots of reasons for this. Long term poor investment in health, Covid and long term affects - we are seeing long Covid and higher rates of ME that was chronically under funded already, waiting lists and poor general access to health care for both physical and mental health. Poor health outcomes overwhelming affects areas with high rates of poverty worse and these areas also tend to have worse access to services many of which were cut over the last 16 years.

Also I have no stats for this, but during the Osborne era and the introduction of UC and PIP many people lost benefits that they were entitled too and never challenged it - the high levels of appeal success backs this up. I suspect many people are now applying again and they are being accepted as it should likely have never been removed in the first place. Of course the usual suspects are all over this demanding that Britain gets back to work, without actually addressing the underlying issues for this.


The hostile environment towards people who claim benefits I believe creates deep issues. The negative connotations of "state handouts" doesn't help with this. They are vital in the society that we live in as they either give people the time to get treatment for their condition and to recover without the pressure of finding paid work, or it enables someone who is not able to work, or requires additional income due to the costs of their disability to live as normal a life as possible.

Sanctions have a devastating affect on someone's health. I've watched someone close to me decline into very poor mental health to the point we thought he may have psychosis. It was only once we realised the extreme pressure he was under and difficulties with his housing that we realised what was happening. Amazingly once we managed to get him rehoused (the HA were genuinely great) and he had a regular income without decronian measures being put into place he fully recovered. He was even able to get a part time job that he maintained as he had the basics in place. It wasn't sanction that helped him, but the support of people around him and a secure income from his UC.

I have to deconstruct a lot of the stigma around benefits (please stop calling them state handouts) and taking time away from work if required so that people are actually able to make a better recovery. I believe that has much better outcomes than the stick and carrot approach long term.

I would absolutely love a world that was built more along mutual with less state interference, but unfortunately that is a long way off so it is important not to allow welfare to be hollowed out and demonised in the way that it has been.
handouts makes it sound like they're so easy to claim, whereas accessing benefits is often a long and arduous process. when i helped a friend of mine claim esa and pip it was such a painful and drawn-out process. it shouldn't be, the help people need and are entitled to ought to be available through an easier process which many people, particularly the infirm and unwell, are treated as genuine rather than as they are, as scammers until proved otherwise.
 
I remember reading many years ago that a lot of visa overstayers were from English speaking nations particularly Australia and New Zealand etc who probably wouldn’t have been considered immigrants due to their skin colour

Yes, this is a thing, and you never see deportation flights full of Australians and if we did the DM would be most offended.
 
Aishah is my own as are her kids. It’s about what’s best for us in Britain, now, and in the future. It’s not about Muslims, it’s not about the past, it’s about thinking about what is best moving forward. What is in our interests.

Because it’s clear to me that the free movement of people is in capitals interest. Now my other half would argue it’s therefore in everyone’s interest. I’m unconvinced. So are a lot of people.
I’m guessing most of the anti immigration rioters don’t have “Free movement of people is in Capitals interest” as one of their talking points….that would put them firmly in socialist/left wing circles?

This loops right back to the fact, left and right have the same concerns/life pressures and are effected the same way by austerity/cost of living crisis and just plain capitalism

Same issues, but the right is getting spoon fed that it’s Muslims, boat people and transgender people who are to blame and acting on it/directing their anger into bollocks culture war issues.

This shit’s as old as time. You’ll never get rid of all the “discomfort” of people who ain’t keen on groups “different” to them.

It might sound completely patronising but educating the population would be a good start. At least on the basics of how power/politics/media/social media works
 
handouts makes it sound like they're so easy to claim, whereas accessing benefits is often a long and arduous process. when i helped a friend of mine claim esa and pip it was such a painful and drawn-out process. it shouldn't be, the help people need and are entitled to ought to be available through an easier process which many people, particularly the infirm and unwell, are treated as genuine rather than as they are, as scammers until proved otherwise.
It's a dehumanising process at the moment.
 
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