Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[lengualo]

IMO they appear to decide to challenge posts that contain ill-informed, reactionary points that the poster fails to support with any cogent argument or evidence. Generally their intent is clear. I'm surprised that you haven't personally realised that, yet.

It's not a case of who I like or not. It's a case of whether they come out with arrant bollocks. And I say someone's a liar if they insist I've said things I haven't. Maybe you've another term for that, but it's the most apt one I know. And if someone says, as lengualo does, that they reckon they're more cultured than me, then it's fair to take them at their word.

Having a difference of opinion isn't ill informed or arrant bollocks. I look at class differently to a lot of people here, I've had sensible discourse with some people about it, others don't seem capable of that and prefer to just make out people are too stupid to get it.

And I say someone's a liar if they insist I've said things I haven't. Maybe you've another term for that, but it's the most apt one I know. And if someone says, as lengualo does, that they reckon they're more cultured than me, then it's fair to take them at their word

Neah, its how it read to me. I might be wrong and you might be being sincere, but when so many of your exchanges with me have been petty little jabs, I'm not sure why you're surprised I might read your posts with a sneer. Seriously, you made a jab at my intelligence and you don't understand why you got a negative response?

Think what you like about me, but I've not made unprovoked personal attacks on anyone here, inferred anything negative about people, or tried to demean their intelligence.


And you want to know what I find particularly amusing, the post that began our exchange where you agreed with someone who was calling me patronising towards the working class for highlighting the food benefits immigration brings and how you can live on less if you use the ethnic supermarkets they bring. The latter part came from a time when I was in poverty, I had virtually no money and empty cupboards. A friend of SEA descent informed me about how to get more bang for my buck at an Asian grocery store and it helped so much. So not ill informed, arrant bollocks, or patronising.

I also find it quite odd why someone would consider some simple benefits of immigration to be patronising towards the working class, or understand why food might be an immediate, big deal, for a lot of people.

We also come from different backgrounds with different life experiences. Speaking of myself, I have a wide, deep, LatAm social circle in Mexico, Peru, Colombia, Brazil and Argentina. Friends also from Japan, Korea, China, India and the Carribean. When you come at me for raising food I find that personally quite insulting and ill informed rather than smart. If you don't understand why, then fair enough, we can discuss it if you wish. But it is insulting.

 

[Pickman's model]

On the other hand, but you can sometimes come across as a bit of a pedant.

Yeh we all know pedantry here is a fits-all insult and not about excessive attention to detail

 

[lengualo]

Actually, Pickman's model I'm gonna engage with your culture thing.

So, I could have listed influence of music, the arts, and the likes. And you're correct, they're very important contributions but I also think they're very inefficient ways to get a point across. You listed examples like genres of music and novels, and thats fine but when you do then you're exposed to the realms of exposure, curiosity, legitimacy, generation, and critical review.

For example, I could have raised a famous Colombian telenovela that was part of the feminist and anti-machismo movement in Columbia last century, that was then exported through the LatinX community in the US, to a global phenomenon in the 2000's. This remake was part of the 2000's progressive movement. If I were to name it (Its Ugly betty) then you'd have some people who've never heard of it, never seen it, others thinking this was an amazing work and others thinking its hot garbage (it was, OG and Telemundo all the way). You also open up discussions about whether the works are good examples in the first place.

We could use the influences of Japanese and Korean entertainment on the western music and movie industries, but then there is a whole discussion over whether thats due to immigrant communities, international export, or both (its a bit of both). What I mean by this is that a lot of the time with the arts, influences aren't an immigrant artist creating a thing (most people aren't artists, and success as an artist is hard), but rather the local population being curious about content being consumed by people from an immigrant community and then the influence grows from there. Particularly within highschools. Similar can be said about the bhangra-hybrid dance music scene here.

With your own retort, a lot of people wouldn't have a clue about those artists, be interested in them, and if they do then you're open to critical review or discussions about its validity as an example.

You also have basic cultural exposure. There was an allusion somewhere in the discussion (maybe not you, I dont remember) after me pointing out that not everyone is particularly affected by cultural exchange of arts, or recognises it, as somehow an accusation of "being thick", which is frankly self projection. Peoples exposure to the arts is diverse, affected by their own environment, subject to taste and peer pressure.

How many kids only play Fortnite, Assassins Creed, GTA, FIFA, etc. but don't have a clue about the indie games of African cultural origin that are appearing right now? Or only listen to whatever is in the top 10? Only watch whatever blockbuster movie has just came out? Whatever their favoured YouTube or Tiktok influencer has just plugged? And that is their frame of reference. Its a lot of people, and it isn't because they're stupid, insular racists, its just that their tastes and environment don't lead them out of that bubble.

 

[xenon]

OK, fair enough.
I think it might to understand that "feeling" if you could pin down a little more explicitly what you mean by that. I see you mention takeaways, shops and people not born in the UK, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm being asked to empathise with.

Bear in mind, these are not my feelings but just thinking about the sort of unease as described, when an area goes through what seems a rapid change. Probably you don't see this as much in cities because transient populations are more usual, greater interconnectedness with other urban neighbourhoods, especially so in London with it's better transport links. Not that there aren't problems there of course.

But as described, in towns that have perhaps built up round particular types of industry, their nearby surrounds, which have recently seen large numbers of immigrants arrive, shops change etc. This is not unsurprisingly unsettling for many of the established population. Notedly if they happen to be older, unemployed, not meeting these new people in the work place, socially and so on. Add to that the problems of lack of other jobs, transport, pressure on housing. Which yeah, policy might address, might, eventually... Meanwhile.

 

[Gramsci]

Do concerns about immigration have a cut off point time wise?

One of the few people at work whose expressed concerns comes from a northern town which has an Asian population.

Now the Asian population are the grandchildren of those who migrated here.

Yet he complains there are to many Muslims in this country and it should be stopped.

These are British Asians he's talking about.

Yet it appears that its still a concern.

At least he comes out with it and says what he wants. End to allowing Muslims into this country.

 

[Gramsci]

London has seen large changes.

Looking at my local history the estate around the corner, one of the earliest post war modernist estates, got a petition up to complain to Council that they had housed a black person in one of the flats. Back in early 70s

Now in this area people like me ( White British) are a minority.

So looked at historically a big change in short period of time.

 

[lengualo]

Do concerns about immigration have a cut off point time wise?

One of the few people at work whose expressed concerns comes from a northern town which has an Asian population.

Now the Asian population are the grandchildren of those who migrated here.

Yet he complains there are to many Muslims in this country and it should be stopped.

These are British Asians he's talking about.

Yet it appears that its still a concern.

At least he comes out with it and says what he wants. End to allowing Muslims into this country.

This often has roots in whether they consider POC to be British, isn't it? Therefore, there isn't really a "cut-off point", its about race.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Looking at my local history the estate around the corner, one of the earliest post war modernist estates, got a petition up to complain to Council that they had housed a black person in one of the flats. Back in early 70s

some councils are known to have had an informal policy of segregation in housing allocations - think one of ken livingstone's books mentioned this from his early days at lambeth council. and it's referred to by 'municipal dreams' in their piece about the (white) pepys estate and (black) milton court estate in deptford

and of course there was generally a rule for getting a council home that you needed to show you had lived in the borough for a few years.

 

[lengualo]

Bear in mind, these are not my feelings but just thinking about the sort of unease as described, when an area goes through what seems a rapid change. Probably you don't see this as much in cities because transient populations are more usual, greater interconnectedness with other urban neighbourhoods, especially so in London with it's better transport links. Not that there aren't problems there of course.

But as described, in towns that have perhaps built up round particular types of industry, their nearby surrounds, which have recently seen large numbers of immigrants arrive, shops change etc. This is not unsurprisingly unsettling for many of the established population. Notedly if they happen to be older, unemployed, not meeting these new people in the work place, socially and so on. Add to that the problems of lack of other jobs, transport, pressure on housing. Which yeah, policy might address, might, eventually... Meanwhile.

If you're referring to the kinds of concerns I think you are, then it isn't one thing, and I don't think its fair and reasonable whichever they might be. It might be a mixture of anger at the death of the highstreet and a lack of investment being misdirected at the streets where immigrant communities are creating businesses, a touch of nimbyism, a touch of snobbery, a bit of paranoia, and a touch of racial prejudice, and some very odd stuff as well. Delete as appropriate.

You get people around here who complain about the Eastern European convenience stores. They're in the local paper on the regular being fined or closed down for selling tobacco products under the counter which leads people to complain about them, whilst buying the under the counter tobacco. Which is really weird, I don't get it. But thats a thing around here. Stuff doesn't always make sense or have rational answers, if I were to hedge my bets, I think its probably because thats the wider consensus on what to say about them. Like, thats the stick to beat them with, hypocritical or not.

They also complain about how the store fronts are tacky, which tbf they are, but so are the British chain convenience stores. They're the same.

 

[brogdale]

Bear in mind, these are not my feelings but just thinking about the sort of unease as described, when an area goes through what seems a rapid change. Probably you don't see this as much in cities because transient populations are more usual, greater interconnectedness with other urban neighbourhoods, especially so in London with it's better transport links. Not that there aren't problems there of course.

But as described, in towns that have perhaps built up round particular types of industry, their nearby surrounds, which have recently seen large numbers of immigrants arrive, shops change etc. This is not unsurprisingly unsettling for many of the established population. Notedly if they happen to be older, unemployed, not meeting these new people in the work place, socially and so on. Add to that the problems of lack of other jobs, transport, pressure on housing. Which yeah, policy might address, might, eventually... Meanwhile.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I've certainly, myself, listed deindustrialisation, privatisation of social housing stock, transport cuts, shop closures, public services/spaces being shut and general degeneration in community cohesion as valid working class concerns, especially in provincial towns and cities. But, as others have pointed out, these things would have happened without immigration; in fact, in many places the majority of shop/restaurant openings are those belonging to immigrants or their offspring.

If I'm reading you right, the feelings you're suggesting appear more like resentment at change and a sort of grieving/nostalgia for a better past (especially amongst the older and poorly educated). I don't and haven't suggested that these feelings aren't real, it's just that they are easily exploited by racists to persuade folk that the correlation with immigration is the cause.

 

[Gramsci]

This often has roots in whether they consider POC to be British, isn't it? Therefore, there isn't really a "cut-off point", its about race.

Yes Id agree with this. All things being equal ( housing etc) leaves the cultural argument.

Large influx of people with different habits. Ie young men standing around on street corners was mentioned in previous post. Which people find unsettling.

Whatever immigrants and there descendents like that do they are still going to be considered not hundred percent British.

Listening to news and one British Asian pointed out that in upshot of recent riots he had seen re emergence of Pakis Out on walls.

Plus immigration controls in this country post war have largely been about keeping POC out. Or at least making life difficult for them to come. See my previous post on this. Where David Olusoga research ( by him and other historians ) shows that the post war immigration policy was racist. Despite on surface being colour blind.

IMO a lot of talk of cultural differences is about race.

 

[lengualo]

Yes Id agree with this. All things being equal ( housing etc) leaves the cultural argument.

Large influx of people with different habits. Ie young men standing around on street corners was mentioned in previous post. Which people find unsettling.

Whatever immigrants and there descendents like that do they are still going to be considered not hundred percent British.

True, and there is a racial double standard with groups of young men standing around. When people talk about groups of young men from a minority background hanging around as if that is a cultural difference, I have to question that in the first place, have they never been near a pub, park, football club or gym before? And bringing that up, I've heard people comment about groups of young men hanging around the sports complex (referring to minorities as having a threatening cultural difference) whilst there are groups of men on the main field hanging around after football, but they don't bring them up. As it happens the people they're referring to actually work out at the park and then hang around afterwards for a while, so same thing.

Listening to news and one British Asian pointed out that in upshot of recent riots he had seen re emergence of Pakis Out on walls.

No surprises there.

Plus immigration controls in this country post war have largely been about keeping POC out. Or at least making life difficult for them to come. See my previous post on this. Where David Olusoga research ( by him and other historians ) shows that the post war immigration policy was racist. Despite on surface being colour blind.

Yes they have and still are. My SO commented on this while she was looking at our visa rules and described them as ethnically lead. They make it much harder for people who are socio-economically from the global south to get a visa than say people from the USA, Canada, Australia, etc. And in the case of the global south, in many places someone who has lighter skin will be more likely to meet the socio-economic requirements, and if they're browner or darker skinned and meet them then their socio-economic standing is less likely to be well established or stable. The bar is set in a way that it will operate on ethnic lines to certain preferences, and its almost certainly deliberate.

This applies to both work and student visas.

The couples visas are weird as well, any restrictions are supposed to prevent sham marriages and visa chasers but the rules aren't geared in that way, if anything they assist dodgy couples at the expense of legitimate ones rather than the other way around. There is a psychology to the visa chaser or sham marriage and a high income requirement assists to that. Basically if you're a rich dude who wants a sterotypical foreign bride (see sex slave and maid) then the current rules are right there for you. If you have a normal relationship then you can bugger off unless you happen to be very well off.

There is also this weird thing where it presumes, with the couples visa, that the non British will be the lower earner but that just isn't the case, and the work rules can tie them so that the partner is dependent upon the British person for a time which is frankly dangerous. Its kind of racist, do they not realise that some people, even from the global south and POC, are highly educated and might even be able to support themselves without working? What is it even there for?

You find that socially too, an automatic assumption of risk of visa chasing which is bloody exhausting. In our case it was a ludicrous thing to say, and even when reality it checked out, they still can't unpack it.

You could go further and make a case for the system as a whole currently assisting to the preference of those who were beneficiaries of the caste system, and the gentrification of areas both here and in other countries. But thats its whole other thing.

IMO a lot of talk of cultural differences is about race.

Agreed

 

[Funky_monks]

Ah, the old "gotcha"; well done Funky.

But always worth remembering what Mike himself said when faced with far-right ideology and statements...

View attachment 440718

Yeah, but there's only the far right posting on these boards in your fevered imagination.

You're just throwing it at anyone who doesn't quite agree with you to boost your own sense of moral superiority.

 

[brogdale]

Yeah, but there's only the far right posting on these boards in your fevered imagination.

You're just throwing it at anyone who doesn't quite agree with you to boost your own sense of moral superiority.

Oh, there you go again, claiming to know what motivates other posters.

If you think that I have suggested that the far right are posting on here, I’m sure you’d be able to evidence that?

What I have claimed is that some posting here have deployed tropes and terms characteristic of far-right, Randian and supremacist ideas.

 

[Edie]

Interesting podcast about the rise of the far right in Ireland (the protestors deny it’s race based- they speak about housing, class sizes, GP appointments).

Signifiant protests by wc people in every county, both Protestant and Catholic, Ireland and Northern Ireland. Talks about the large recent increase of immigration, migrants being housed in tents, and how the anti-lockdown movement merged into this expanding new political movement that crosses religious and Ireland/N. Ireland borders.

Discusses that the political parties don’t know how to respond to it, the risk of a minority of people involved having a long history of involvement with serious violence, and links with online (but not financial) conservative America discussed.

Finally, discusses that Ireland is historically a country with links to migration. Previously would have been considered an open and welcoming place for migrants.

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh, there you go again, claiming to know what motivates other posters.

If you think that I have suggested that the far right are posting on here, I’m sure you’d be able to evidence that?

What I have claimed is that some posting here have deployed tropes and terms characteristic of far-right, Randian and supremacist ideas.

It was you that compared a poster to a Nazi, not me.

Where are the Nazis on this thread? Point them out

 

[brogdale]

It was you that compared a poster to a Nazi, not me.

Where are the Nazis on this thread? Point them out

Oh come on Funky, this is tedious and frankly embarrassing. Describing someone’s political/policy ideas as “Nazi adjacent” does fall foul of Godwin’s ( well done, you done me good and proper) but does not equate to comparing someone to a Nazi.

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh come on Funky, this is tedious and frankly embarrassing. Describing someone’s political/policy ideas as “Nazi adjacent” does fall foul of Godwin’s ( well done, you done me good and proper) but does not equate to comparing someone to a Nazi.

I agree it's embarrassing, but it isn't me that should be embarrassed.

Of course, the "adjacent" makes all the difference.

 

[brogdale]

I agree it's embarrassing, but it isn't me that should be embarrassed.

Of course, the "adjacent" makes all the difference.

Ok, you win… now, anything to say about immigration?

 

[Edie]

Ok, you win… now, anything to say about immigration?

Are all concerns about immigration Nazi-adjacent in your view?

Or can there be any reasonable concerns?

 

[Pickman's model]

Interesting podcast about the rise of the far right in Ireland (the protestors deny it’s race based- they speak about housing, class sizes, GP appointments).

Signifiant protests by wc people in every county, both Protestant and Catholic, Ireland and Northern Ireland. Talks about the large recent increase of immigration, migrants being housed in tents, and how the anti-lockdown movement merged into this expanding new political movement that crosses religious and Ireland/N. Ireland borders.

Discusses that the political parties don’t know how to respond to it, the risk of a minority of people involved having a long history of involvement with serious violence, and links with online (but not financial) conservative America discussed.

Finally, discusses that Ireland is historically a country with links to migration. Previously would have been considered an open and welcoming place for migrants.

I can't easily think of a country without links to migration. Can you?

You say the link discusses a load of things. Before I spend 36 minutes listening to something I'd like to know something of the perspectives involved and a hint at the conclusions they come to.

 

[brogdale]

Are all concerns about immigration Nazi-adjacent in your view?

Or can there be any reasonable concerns?

I believe my comment about being “Nazi adjacent” related to your (unexplained) view on enforced paid labour for all but the ill; nothing to do with immigration?

 

[maomao]

I can't easily think of a country without links to migration. Can you?

Very rare in North Korea.

 

[Pickman's model]

Very rare in North Korea

I see my mistake not to include Edie's historically

 

[brogdale]

Very rare in North Korea.

But famously a sending country; a source of immigrants that are often well received by the US?

 

[maomao]

But famously a sending country; a source of immigrants that are often well received by the US?

A few hundred a year, it's not an easy trip. Most end up in China or SK.

 

[lazythursday]

Let's face it, the recent violence wasn't really about concerns with 'immigration' as such. Is was a bit more specific, and was basically targeted at a) Muslims, whether recent immigrants or not and b) asylum seekers. Both groups which are endlessly demonised by politicians, the press, social media loudmouths etc etc etc. A toxic mixture of invaders coming over here on small boats and then living the life of Reilly and Asian grooming gangs. Those are the narratives that have driven this, not vague worries about Polish shops popping up on high streets.

So the question perhaps should be more focused on whether there are legitimate concerns about Muslim communities, and/or the number/presence of asylum seekers.

On the first, I think there perhaps is some legitimate concern about the way a form of geographical segregation has developed in some towns that hasn't been healthy for community cohesion. And on the second, clearly the way asylum seekers are distributed and housed absolutely stinks.

 

[brogdale]

On the first, I think there perhaps is some legitimate concern about the way a form of geographical segregation has developed in some towns that hasn't been healthy for community cohesion. And on the second, clearly the way asylum seekers are distributed and housed absolutely stinks.

The racist rioter’s favourite song about “Allah, Allah, who the f…” would suggest you’re spot on.

As a response to your first point, I suppose I’d try to look at that question from the perspective of being a Muslim immigrant or refugee. I think I’d probably appreciate the community cohesion/security that the geographical segregation affords.

As to the a spatial distribution of asylum dispersal accommodation; that is a product of the neoliberal state’s adherence to privatisation. Of course the corporations cashing in on the state’s need to house refugees will purchase/rent accommodation in the cheapest housing areas.

 

[lazythursday]

The racist rioter’s favourite song about “Allah, Allah, who the f…” would suggest you’re spot on.

As a response to your first point, I suppose I’d try to look at that question from the perspective of being a Muslim immigrant or refugee. I think I’d probably appreciate the community cohesion/security that the geographical segregation affords.

As to the a spatial distribution of asylum dispersal accommodation; that is a product of the neoliberal state’s adherence to privatisation. Of course the corporations cashing in on the state’s need to house refugees will purchase/rent accommodation in the cheapest housing areas.

I'm not attaching any blame to either community with regards geographical segregation - I suspect it's partly organic, partly driven by economics, but has probably been exacerbated by some government policies particularly the changes to the education system over the past four decades. I'm just observing that it exists in quite a number of towns that are basically bicultural rather than multicultural, and it's quite different to more mixed communities within the big cities. It's bred a sense of otherness perhaps. But then again, these towns weren't generally those that experienced rioting this time.

But the idea of Muslim communities as some sort of enemy within is clearly widespread and those narratives are generally the true face of 'concerns about immigration' in my view.

 

[lengualo]

Let's face it, the recent violence wasn't really about concerns with 'immigration' as such. Is was a bit more specific, and was basically targeted at a) Muslims, whether recent immigrants or not and b) asylum seekers. Both groups which are endlessly demonised by politicians, the press, social media loudmouths etc etc etc. A toxic mixture of invaders coming over here on small boats and then living the life of Reilly and Asian grooming gangs. Those are the narratives that have driven this, not vague worries about Polish shops popping up on high streets.

So the question perhaps should be more focused on whether there are legitimate concerns about Muslim communities, and/or the number/presence of asylum seekers.

On the first, I think there perhaps is some legitimate concern about the way a form of geographical segregation has developed in some towns that hasn't been healthy for community cohesion. And on the second, clearly the way asylum seekers are distributed and housed absolutely stinks.

Whilst the riots focused on Muslims and asylum seekers, and they have more vitriol towards that community, it is incorrect to attribute their wider sentiment singularily to Muslims. For one, they targetted people of African descent too, and there is a lot of crossover with a wider sentiment about foreign people, or those they perceive as foreign. A lot of people who bang on about Muslims also bang on about Polish too and the sentiment about resources applies indiscriminately to anyone who is from abroad or who they perceive as such. You could argue that colourism also plays a role.

They are also motivated along racial lines rather than religious ones, it doesn't matter to them whether their target is a Muslim, or a Hindu, or whatever. Just that they are brown and look like they're from the Middle East. Its not exactly rare for them to misidentify people from the Med or Spain due to historical migration patterns and skin colour.

Moving onto black people, again, it doesn't matter to them whether the persons heritage is from Kenya, Morocco, Jamaica, Brazil, an African American, or from Veracruz. What matters is that they are black and the person who committed the murders was also black.

So whilst they their language is targetted, their actions are indicriminate and operate along racial lines.