Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Pickman's model]

OK I get you. I still don't think you can ignore the difference between being a business that has a real position of power or is being exploitative to those who are more modest or have more in common with the traditional working class.

All workers are exploited.

 

[Pickman's model]

But I am responding to someone who is talking about a very ground level, visual change. The amount of posts in the thread doesn't matter.

You know, your reply almost borders on food not being an "itellectual" or "enlightened" enough position to come from despite the example being the kind of subject that most people can have some kind of tangible, universal, relationship to. Its a practical example to which people can relate, and therefore a good one.

Incidentally, if you take immigrant communities you often find that food is one the most precious and important elements of their culture and therefore as a result an important cultural thing to share and bond over. Literally, bruh, calling food not one of the best examples to a Latin American or South East Asian could be quite offensive to them. Most Latin Americans would take what you've said as a call to action to eat Abuelas food.

If you read my post again you might see what I was saying, namely that after seventeen hundred posts we've covered food. You might. But I've no great confidence in your comprehension. What about music, literature, art?

 

[lengualo]

Do those more modest employers pay more, or offer more holiday entitlement or other benefits? Which is better, working for a small business owner who would really love to pay you more or give you the time off you asked for (and are entitled to) but things are just so difficult right now, I'm sure you understand, or a large unionised employer with collective wage bargaining and a functional HR department that abides by regulations because it's too much hassle not to?

The idea that small businesses are better employers is just sentimental nonsense. Both exploit labour for profit and both vary massively in how they otherwise treat their employees.

Like I said, its a wildly diverse marketplace. It depends and I said a decent SME.

 

[lengualo]

All workers are exploited.

Fine

 

[brogdale]

Fine

Not really

 

[lengualo]

If you read my post again you might see what I was saying, namely that after seventeen hundred posts we've covered food. You might.

I'm not reading through 1,700 posts. I don't have time for that and nor should there be an expectation that anyone does. Does it really matter to you that I might have joined the conversation several hundred posts in and repeated a topic that had already been talked about? If thats something that gets under your skin then your life must be really good.

But I've no great confidence in your comprehension.

Why? Just, why?

What about music, literature, art?

I'm very aware of music, literature and art. I also strongly encourage learning foreign languages, its really rewarding and opens the world to you.

Whilst I don't know you, its actually quite possible my cultural intake of music, literature and art is more than yours - who knows, but given my own circumstances it certainly is more than most. So don't make assumptions.

But here is the thing, everybody eats. Not everybody listens to foreign language music, TV shows, movies, can read a book in a foreign language, or enjoys looking at art. Everybody however eats. Hence why I said its a universal thing and without immigration we wouldn't have a lot of the options most people enjoy on the regular.

Not to mention having say a Portuguese community appear in your town isnt exactly going to introduce most people to music, literature, or art. Not in a tangible, rapid, way at least. Its far more likely to introduce food though.

Not sure why thats a thing to get all prissy about.


You can't make that kind of point with music, literature and art, because the pool is smaller and more specific or harder to do without getting into history. So its convenient for sure, but also true.

I'd love it btw if we had loads of foreign language stuff on TV, the charts, and people were more open to international content. RRR is an awesome movie, La Casa de los Flores is a thing, as is Betty en NY - the good remake of Ugly Betty, loads of SEA dramas are good fun, Grave of the Fireflies is a masterpiece, love Hosodas works too. Very pop culture but we all have our tastes.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not reading through 1,700 posts. I don't have time for that and nor should there be an expectation that anyone does. Does it really matter to you that I might have joined the conversation several hundred posts in and repeated a topic that had already been talked about? If thats something that gets under your skin then your life must be really good.




Why? Just, why?




I'm very aware of music, literature and art. I also strongly encourage learning foreign languages, its really rewarding and opens the world to you.

Whilst I don't know you, its actually quite possible my cultural intake of music, literature and art is more than yours - who knows, but given my own circumstances it certainly is more than most. So don't make assumptions.

But here is the thing, everybody eats. Not everybody listens to foreign language music, TV shows, movies, can read a book in a foreign language, or enjoys looking at art. Everybody however eats. Hence why I said its a universal thing and without immigration we wouldn't have a lot of the options most people enjoy on the regular.

Not to mention having say a Portuguese community appear in your town isnt exactly going to introduce most people to music, literature, or art. Not in a tangible, rapid, way at least. Its far more likely to introduce food though.

Not sure why thats a thing to get all prissy about.


You can't make that kind of point with music, literature and art, because the pool is smaller and more specific or harder to do without getting into history. So its convenient for sure, but also true.

I'd love it btw if we had loads of foreign language stuff on TV, the charts, and people were more open to international content. RRR is an awesome movie, La Casa de los Flores is a thing, as is Betty en NY - the good remake of Ugly Betty, loads of SEA dramas are good fun, Grave of the Fireflies is a masterpiece, love Hosodas works too. Very pop culture but we all have our tastes.

it's like you've never heard of people like Joseph conrad, of Sam selvon, of w.b. yeats and so on and so forth. There's a great body of literature written by immigrants, by people of foreign heritage, that's enriched British culture - not just highbrow stuff but also eg victor headley's yardie. Not to mention music like two tone. Have you heard eg ghost town or do nothing? There's few areas of British life which haven't been enriched by immigration, by greater diversity. Reducing immigrants' influence to clichéd food is really poor: and tbh didn't seem a shorthand for anything else, no matter how you protest since being taken to task. In this case a curry was just a curry.

 

[lengualo]

it's like you've never heard of people like Joseph conrad, of Sam selvon, of w.b. yeats and so on and so forth. There's a great body of literature written by immigrants, by people of foreign heritage, that's enriched British culture - not just highbrow stuff but also eg victor headley's yardie. Not to mention music like two tone. Have you heard eg ghost town or do nothing? There's few areas of British life which haven't been enriched by immigration, by greater diversity. Reducing immigrants' influence to clichéd food is really poor: and tbh didn't seem a shorthand for anything else, no matter how you protest since being taken to task. In this case a curry was just a curry.

You doubt my reading comprehension, yet post this, despite me writing this:

Not in a tangible, rapid, way at least.

Where have I denied that immigrants have enriched our society with literature and art? Where did I reduce their contribution to one thing? I didn't, you just decided thats what it is and ran with it, because you have a chip on your shoulder. I used food because its immediately visible and is the immediate point of connection for the widest number of people. Infering anything more from it is in your head and your head alone.

And if anything, I'm reading your post with a snobbish sneer at the common food when you have all this art. You can try to take the high ground with me, but you don't exactly come across well yourself and I think your issue is more with me than it is with what I have written.

 

[Pickman's model]

You doubt my reading comprehension, yet post this, despite me writing this:



Where have I denied that immigrants have enriched our society with literature and art? Where did I reduce their contribution to one thing? I didn't, you just decided thats what it is and ran with it, because you have a chip on your shoulder. I used food because its immediately visible and is the immediate point of connection for the widest number of people. Infering anything more from it is in your head and your head alone.

And if anything, I'm reading your post with a snobbish sneer at the common food when you have all this art. You can try to take the high ground with me, but you don't exactly come across well yourself.

You do like a straw man, don't you. As for my snobbish sneer, that's in your imagination. Where have I sneered at common food? It's easy - I haven't. Nice try tho

 

[lengualo]

You do like a straw man, don't you. As for my snobbish sneer, that's in your imagination. Where have I sneered at common food? It's easy - I haven't. Nice try tho

Erm... you're the one who said food is a reductive cliche and a more valuable contribution would have been the literature and arts. You're the one who said a curry is just a curry - I beg to differ. Admittedly, I might be misreading you, but I am reading your posts with a snobbish sneer. You even made your post despite me clearly saying that I think food is just more visible and immediately apparent, that does not undermine any other contribution people might make.

But you know what, I disagree with you. I haven't dismissed or trivialised literature and art and absolutely agree that people of foreign heritage have introduced many wonderful things to our culture. I think food is anything but a reductive cliche though, I think food is wonderful and can tell you so much about a culture, its history, traditions, it can have stories. Food is steeped in culture. I think its just as valid a contribution as literature and art. Its the notion that you don't think it is which I find snobbish.

I stand by what I said though, I think your issue is more with me personally than it is with what I am saying.

 

[PTK]

I think perhaps our empasse is more to do with how we are defining class. Just to be clear, if we refer to Marx I dont believe the capitalist class and the modern middle class are adjacent. I think the modern middle class and the working class are the same group according to the spirit of what Marx was referring to. The majority of the middle class is a nominally better off section of the working class. I also think we've created another disadvantaged class below it (also created by capitalism in the sense that they no longer serve it and are now left behind).

That is my underlying view towards class and that when we draw attack lines between the two we are playing into divide and rule.

I'm acutely aware that a lot of very rich people have set a lot of people against each other for their own ends. But that does not extend to them automatically having created the underlying sentiment in the first place. Hatred today often starts in the home, and while you may be able to trace the source back to Marxist theory, I don't think its at all helpful in the modern environment to singularly tack it onto that. We combat racism through education and improving peoples lot in life.

Marx did recognise a group called the lumpen proletariat, which today would be called the underclass.

Middle class is an ill-defined term. The petty bourgeoisie are owners of small businesses.

“Professionals” such as teachers and others may be said to have bee proletarianised, but they do not produce surplus value, and therefore the product of their labour is not expropriated by the bourgeoisie.

 

[lengualo]

Marx did recognise a group called the lumpen proletariat, which today would be called the underclass.

Middle class is an ill-defined term. The petty bourgeoisie are owners of small businesses.

“Professionals” such as teachers and others may be said to have bee proletarianised, but they do not produce surplus value, and therefore the product of their labour is not expropriated by the bourgeoisie.

They don't fit well today though, I don't think. The BIB might be the crux of my issue really.

 

[Pickman's model]

Erm... you're the one who said food is a reductive cliche and a more valuable contribution would have been the literature and arts. Admittedly, I might be misreading you, but I am reading your posts with a snobbish sneer. You even made your post despite me clearly saying that I think food is just more visible and immediately apparent, that does not undermine any other contribution people might make.

But you know what, I disagree with you. I haven't dismissed or trivialised literature and art and absolutely agree that people of foreign heritage have introduced many wonderful things to our culture. I think food is anything but a reductive cliche though, I think food is wonderful and can tell you so much about a culture, its history, traditions, it can have stories. Food is steeped in culture. I think its just as valid a contribution as literature and art. Its the notion that you don't think it is which I find snobbish.

I stand by what I said though, I think your issue is more with me personally than it is with what I am saying.

No, no I haven't said that. I haven't described anything as a 'reductive cliche' and it's this last want of honesty in you which drives me to add you to my list of time-wasters. E2a I haven't said art or literature or music are more valuable immigrant contributions than food either, it's a lie for you to claim otherwise.

 

[lengualo]

No, no I haven't said that. I haven't described anything as a 'reductive cliche' and it's this last want of honesty in you which drives me to add you to my list of time-wasters. E2a I haven't said art or literature or music are more valuable immigrant contributions than food either, it's a lie for you to claim otherwise.

Then what the heck is your problem?

Mentalchik referred to how streets have changed now immigrants have moved in. The majority of the changes are things like stores, restaurants, grocery stores and the likes. I see those as a benefit, not sure what the problem with that is supposed to be.

You then say

You've a really peculiar notion of the benefits immigrant communities bring as all you mention in your patronising post are foodstuffs. Perhaps you've not as much to offer on this thread as you think you have

And after 1700 posts you think those are the best examples to offer. Maybe after 17 posts or even 170. But we're past that simplistic stage now.

Reducing immigrants' influence to clichéd food is really poor

In this case a curry was just a curry

So we've gone from its patronising and me having a peculiar notion of the benefits of immigrant contributions if I focus on food (as though it was exclusionary of everything else, it wasn't), to an issue with me because it had been covered somewhere down this long thread, to accusing me of being reductionist.

Sincerely, how the heck do you expect me to interpret you? I give up, I'm out. Snark at me all you like, I don't care, I can't deal with this negative energy.

 

[brogdale]

Marx did recognise a group called the lumpen proletariat, which today would be called the underclass.

Middle class is an ill-defined term. The petty bourgeoisie are owners of small businesses.

“Professionals” such as teachers and others may be said to have bee proletarianised, but they do not produce surplus value, and therefore the product of their labour is not expropriated by the bourgeoisie.

A contestable point; I fully understand the theoretical point, but in very real terms the "product" of teachers' labour (the socially reproduced labour pool) are, of course, expropriated by the bourgeoise.

 

[Pickman's model]

Then what the heck is your problem?

Mentalchik referred to how streets have changed now immigrants have moved in. The majority of the changes are things like stores, restaurants, grocery stores and the likes. I see those as a benefit, not sure what the problem with that is supposed to be.

You then say



So we've gone from its patronising and me having a peculiar notion of the benefits of immigrant contributions if I focus on food (as though it was exclusionary of everything else, it wasn't), to an issue with me because it had been covered somewhere down this long thread, to accusing me of being reductionist.

Sincerely, how the heck do you expect me to interpret you? I give up, I'm out. Snark at me all you like, I don't care, I can't deal with this negative energy.

You say you've a really great exposure to art and literature and all manner of culture and it's probably much better than mine and you don't recognise a riff on Freud's sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I've never accused you of being reductionist. I don't expect you to interpret me, just to read my posts and there's no need to lie about what I've said.

 

[PTK]

A contestable point; I fully understand the theoretical point, but in very real terms the "product" of teachers' labour (the socially reproduced labour pool) are, of course, expropriated by the bourgeoise.

So the workers are put in the bank by the bosses? I don't understand what you mean. You are using the term expropriation in a strange way.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

“Professionals” such as teachers and others may be said to have bee proletarianised, but they do not produce surplus value, and therefore the product of their labour is not expropriated by the bourgeoisie.

A contestable point; I fully understand the theoretical point, but in very real terms the "product" of teachers' labour (the socially reproduced labour pool) are, of course, expropriated by the bourgeoise.

and depends what you mean by 'professionals' (much misused, and often used for 'white collar job')

arguably public sector teachers etc aren't having surplus value extracted in terms of profit being made by shareholders (although academisation is making that more questionable, along with PFI meaning someone's making a profit out of the building being there and functioning as a school or whatever)

but (for example) the branch manager of a bank, or a solicitor or a vet who has employed status rather than a sole trader or partner (to think of a few 'professional' jobs) do not own the 'means of production' where they work, and are generating some profit for someone...

(or have i missed a point somewhere?)

 

[lengualo]

You say you've a really great exposure to art and literature and all manner of culture and it's probably much better than mine and you don't recognise a riff on Freud's sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I've never accused you of being reductionist. I don't expect you to interpret me, just to read my posts and there's no need to lie about what I've said.

No Pickman, I didn't recognise your riff. Freud isn't my bag, sorry. There is a lot of stuff out there and we are all familiar with different things and have different tastes, I'm afraid Freud isn't one of mine. The point of my comment was to not make assumptions about people, and you aren't going to get the best response after you throw shade at me about my reading comprehension and question me over literature and arts. I don't know how you intended it, but it didn't come across as chill, lets put it that way.

Its an internet forum though, I'm not into stupid vendettas and negative energy with people. So lets just leave it, yeah. And I'm too busy reading back over 60 pages of the thread so I'm all caught up, so you win. I'm on page 5 so I might be a while with that. But hey ho.

 

[PTK]

and depends what you mean by 'professionals' (much misused, and often used for 'white collar job')

arguably public sector teachers etc aren't having surplus value extracted in terms of profit being made by shareholders (although academisation is making that more questionable, along with PFI meaning someone's making a profit out of the building being there and functioning as a school or whatever)

but (for example) the branch manager of a bank, or a solicitor or a vet who has employed status rather than a sole trader or partner (to think of a few 'professional' jobs) do not own the 'means of production' where they work, and are generating some profit for someone...

(or have i missed a point somewhere?)

Not all profit is surplus value, so any profit from schools would just be a re-allocation of value produced elsewhere.

 

[Edie]

Then what the heck is your problem?

Mentalchik referred to how streets have changed now immigrants have moved in. The majority of the changes are things like stores, restaurants, grocery stores and the likes. I see those as a benefit, not sure what the problem with that is supposed to be.

You then say



So we've gone from its patronising and me having a peculiar notion of the benefits of immigrant contributions if I focus on food (as though it was exclusionary of everything else, it wasn't), to an issue with me because it had been covered somewhere down this long thread, to accusing me of being reductionist.

Sincerely, how the heck do you expect me to interpret you? I give up, I'm out. Snark at me all you like, I don't care, I can't deal with this negative energy.

Pickmans seemingly randomly decides he doesn’t like someone, makes obscure points he expects you to have education on, claims you are a liar if you don’t understand. It’s always the same. Generally few people know what the fuck he’s on about. I rarely do.

 

[Humberto]

He does try to stand up for a bit of rigour in the politics boards tbf.

 

[Gramsci]

Understand what you mean, I lived in Hackney for years, Tooting also at another time, also Bristol - both inner city St.Werburghs and outer edge Kingswood. I've lived multiculturally and through gentrification, I've lived in white-flight suburbs and I grew up in poor, white, working class Gosport. I live in a very White town in a very White county (though one which sees very diverse seasonal influxes). Working in Care, got a mixed-race kid (mum's an immigrant) about to start secondary school, I really do like to think I've got a pretty clear view on this particular issue. It comes up in conversation at times, I never call anyone racist, I just make the points I've been making here:

It's not really immigration. It's shitty governments. It's our privatise-the-profit / nationalise-the-debt economic system, deliberate morbid neglect of industries and hobbling of unions, fetishisation of finance and crazy inflation of house prices, underfunding of councils leading to services either vanishing entirely or being taken up by volunteers. Volunteers! The list goes on, but even if you can get someone to agree, they still kind of go ... yyyeah but .. immigration though, eh?

Because it's also our very Brittttish culture of deference up while punching down. And it's easier to burn down an immigrant's house than it is to burn down the king's house, even though me and the immigrant have more in common than either of us has with the king.

Anyway, just because someone doesn't share particular concerns about society doesn't mean they must be out of touch. I have lots of concerns about society. I just want to direct my concerns at where I think they belong, instead of where oligarchs and gaslighters and demagogues and grifters want me to direct them.

Good post.

Notice you said you have mixed race kid.

That's something that has not been touched on here.

Someone I know has written PHD on that. Been published by Routledge. I haven't read it. I know them and they are ok so I reckon its worth a go. Price so far has put me off.

Making Mixed Race: A Study of Time, Place and Identity

By examining Black mixed-race identities in the city through a series of historical vantage points, Making Mixed Race provides in-depth insights into the geographical and historical contexts that shape the possibilities and constraints for identifications. Whilst popular representations of...

www.routledge.com

I've met a lot of people who are mixed race. It's not that unusual in London. Some people have quite complicated backgrounds that go outside the Black / White categorisation.

Post war, despite labour shortage, immigration to here by Black people in Empire was discouraged due to fear of mixing of races.

A lot of discussion of people's concerns is about large influx of people who are different. Either culturally or by colour.

Not a lot has been done about the mixing that inevitably took place when immigration happened.

Perhaps their is another history ( as this book looks like it does using interviews with people). Instead of looking at how the other was finally or partially accepted look at how people mixed and built lives around that.

It's not something that gets treated well on either side imo

IMO there are those in Black community who subscribe to the White Supremacy line. All culture came from Africa, if your Black your Black and mixed raced relationships never work. A mirror image of the white racist idea that what is termed miscegenation should not be allowed as it weakens the white race.

To add talking to a Black British person I know and he said that people from Carribbeans often have mixed backgrounds. He had African and Indian background as part of his family were descended from African slaves and part from Indian indentured workers.

This idea of us and the other who come here is in itself not that straightforward concept.

 

[Dystopiary]

Good post.

Notice you said you have mixed race kid.

That's something that has not been touched on here.

Someone I know has written PHD on that. Been published by Routledge. I haven't read it. I know them and they are ok so I reckon its worth a go. Price so far has put me off.

Making Mixed Race: A Study of Time, Place and Identity

By examining Black mixed-race identities in the city through a series of historical vantage points, Making Mixed Race provides in-depth insights into the geographical and historical contexts that shape the possibilities and constraints for identifications. Whilst popular representations of...

www.routledge.com

I've met a lot of people who are mixed race. It's not that unusual in London. Some people have quite complicated backgrounds that go outside the Black / White categorisation.

Post war, despite labour shortage, immigration to here by Black people in Empire was discouraged due to fear of mixing of races.

A lot of discussion of people's concerns is about large influx of people who are different. Either culturally or by colour.

Not a lot has been done about the mixing that inevitably took place when immigration happened.

Perhaps their is another history ( as this book looks like it does using interviews with people). Instead of looking at how the other was finally or partially accepted look at how people mixed and built lives around that.

It's not something that gets treated well on either side imo

IMO there are those in Black community who subscribe to the White Supremacy line. All culture came from Africa, if your Black your Black and mixed raced relationships never work. A mirror image of the white racist idea that what is termed miscegenation should not be allowed as it weakens the white race.

To add talking to a Black British person I know and he said that people from Carribbeans often have mixed backgrounds. He had African and Indian background as part of his family were descended from African slaves and part from Indian indentured workers.

This idea of us and the other who come here is in itself not that straightforward concept.

BIB - Spymaster talked a bit about his experience of growing up mixed race earlier in the thread.

 

[Gramsci]

BIB - Spymaster talked a bit about his experience of growing up mixed race earlier in the thread.

Ah yes. Your correct on that. Apologies

 

[brogdale]

Pickmans seemingly randomly decides he doesn’t like someone, makes obscure points he expects you to have education on, claims you are a liar if you don’t understand. It’s always the same. Generally few people know what the fuck he’s on about. I rarely do.

IMO they appear to decide to challenge posts that contain ill-informed, reactionary points that the poster fails to support with any cogent argument or evidence. Generally their intent is clear. I'm surprised that you haven't personally realised that, yet.

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickmans seemingly randomly decides he doesn’t like someone, makes obscure points he expects you to have education on, claims you are a liar if you don’t understand. It’s always the same. Generally few people know what the fuck he’s on about. I rarely do.

It's not a case of who I like or not. It's a case of whether they come out with arrant bollocks. And I say someone's a liar if they insist I've said things I haven't. Maybe you've another term for that, but it's the most apt one I know. And if someone says, as lengualo does, that they reckon they're more cultured than me, then it's fair to take them at their word.

 

[brogdale]

Godwin's Law by page 50....surprised it wasn't sooner tbh

Ah, the old "gotcha"; well done Funky.

But always worth remembering what Mike himself said when faced with far-right ideology and statements...

 

[lengualo]

Pickmans seemingly randomly decides he doesn’t like someone, makes obscure points he expects you to have education on, claims you are a liar if you don’t understand. It’s always the same. Generally few people know what the fuck he’s on about. I rarely do.

To be fair, I tend to dump my throughts into threads whilst multitasking between other stuff, and tend to blend voice frustrations from my experiences into it too, so that posting style might not work for them.

 

[PTK]

It's not a case of who I like or not. It's a case of whether they come out with arrant bollocks. And I say someone's a liar if they insist I've said things I haven't. Maybe you've another term for that, but it's the most apt one I know. And if someone says, as lengualo does, that they reckon they're more cultured than me, then it's fair to take them at their word.

On the other hand, but you can sometimes come across as a bit of a pedant.