Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[PTK]

When the Berlin Wall came down, I had to hold back my Dad, who was a retired brick layer, from rushing over there and re-building it.

The United Secretariat of the Four International was organising a brigade of building workers to go to Germany and re-establish the German Democratic Republic as a holding pen for those with whom it disagreed.

 

[Edie]

Personally, I hope you stay Edie. I always enjoy your posts. We don't have to agree on everything.

Fair enough. I guess I just don’t wanna actively piss people off who’d be happier just chatting politics from a more left wing perspective cos y’know that’s fine with me.

 

[The39thStep]

I know and I will obviously, just in two minds really. I was wondering what others preference was, and if it’s to just discuss things from a left point of view that really is fine. The internets a big place.

If you are prepared to argue /discuss your point and you think its worth the effort, stay . I'll be upfront and say that I don't agree with some of the things you have said on here but I've also haven't agreed with the tone of some of the replies. It's a bit ironic when there is a thread set up asking people to discuss any concern they have with immigration and then there is a weigh in on posters who put their head above the parapet and say well yes I have concerns. Most of it was civil however you can see that some posters just dropped out.

 

[JoeyBoy]

And yet we have, even comparing our Gen X to our boomer parents, become increasingly wealthier, had a better quality of life, more further education, more travel, and a bigger middle class. So yunno it’s not all bad. Maybe the rich getting richer doesn’t matter. Maybe the only thing that matters is the reduction in absolute poverty. The rest is all to play for.

There’s some class antagonism, but it’s pretty low level stuff- mostly taking the piss out of posh people. There’s no appetite for getting rid of the rich- that idea is alien as far as I can tell. Success certainly isn’t overtly celebrated in the UK as it is in America where complete strangers will honk and give you a thumbs up if you drive a Porsche.

But maybe not- maybe the only metric that matters is comparative wealth and inequality drives misery. Would we all be happier if everyone earnt circa 50k a year?

I worked for Amazon for a couple of years and they're very American in their attitude, they fed us no end of the "There is nothing between you and success but your own hard work and a go-getter attitude" bullshit. Well maybe if you're an Oxbridge graduate on the fast track management program or a hotshot corporate lawyer there isn't but if you're a mindless drone in the warehouse then not so much. If someone drove a Porsche round here someone would have the wheels off it.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about immigration concerns though? I'm not arsed about immigrants the only thing that puzzles me about them is why they would want to come here to this shithole? I've lost a job to them though, when they started coming in big numbers from Eastern Europe the guy I worked for at the time sacked all eight of his UK staff and hired Poles instead. He reckoned even if he paid them the same he would still be better off since they had a better work ethic than Brits.
Probably right in my case of course.

 

[Gramsci]

I have concerns about immigration.

They way they get treated here in this country. As though they are a concern.

My partner is an immigrant and when someone goes on about "our own" I get really really angry.

Considering that I think my posts here have been fairly restrained.

 

[Elpenor]

Have always admired folk coming to the UK from another country and then working in a language that is not their mother tongue. Ought to be paid more in recognition of that really ( perhaps this is a bit flippant but they must surely using more brain energy than myself if it’s a second or third language)

I don’t have any concerns personally.

 

[Spymaster]

My partner is an immigrant and when someone goes on about "our own" I get really really angry.

Well "our own" hasn't been defined, unless I've missed it.

Genuine refugees should be granted refuge as soon as it's been established that they are who they say they are and not "undesirable".

Those with family links in the UK should be able to join their families, and people who want to come here to live and work should be able to if they have a job to come to that can't be filled by someone who's already here (i.e. "our own").

When issuing work visas, preference should be given to applicants from Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations.

 

[Gramsci]

Well "our own" hasn't been defined, unless I've missed it.

Genuine refugees should be granted refuge as soon as it's been established that they are who they say they are and not "undesirable".

Those with family links in the UK should be able to join their families, and people who want to come here to live and work should be able to if they have a job to come to that can't be filled by someone who's already here (i.e. "our own").

When issuing work visas, preference should be given to applicants from Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations.

No our own hasn't been defined as far as I can see. Edie used it. And posters questioned it. And unless I missed something Edie did not give clarification of what they meant.

 

[The39thStep]

Well "our own" hasn't been defined, unless I've missed it.

Genuine refugees should be granted refuge as soon as it's been established that they are who they say they are and not "undesirable".

Those with family links in the UK should be able to join their families, and people who want to come here to live and work should be able to if they have a job to come to that can't be filled by someone who's already here (i.e. "our own").

When issuing work visas, preference should be given to applicants from Commonwealth and former Commonwealth nations.

Interestingly enough the Portuguese give some priority to applicants from the CPLP which is the Community of Portuguese Speaking Countries . Like the U.K. the huge backlog of dealing with applications doesn’t help anybody .

 

[Edie]

No our own hasn't been defined as far as I can see. Edie used it. And posters questioned it. And unless I missed something Edie did not give clarification of what they meant.

I thought I had. Our own is those born and raised in Britain.

My fella is an immigrant like your partner too btw. He was born and raised in Kenya. And he’s not white. Immigrated to the UK and finished his education in a state school in Leeds (completely coincidentally the same school my kids went to). Horrendous racism in 1970s Leeds. Then made his fortune in America.

Keep saying he should join urban. But his views further right than mine, I’m pretty central really.

 

[Edie]

Gramsci it seems you can’t engage in this debate without getting “really really angry”.

There seems to have been a number of men getting really angry about alternative views being expressed- and saying, repeatedly in one or two cases, how angry they are.

I’ve got my own thoughts about why that is.

 

[mod]

This sums up my views very accurately. We are a nation of immigrants and our culture is richer for it.

Well worry 8 mins of your time.

 

[Spymaster]

Gramsci it seems you can’t engage in this debate without getting “really really angry”.

I was thinking similar, and why anyone else should give a toss about Gramsci getting angry!

 

[Gramsci]

Gramsci it seems you can’t engage in this debate without getting “really really angry”.

There seems to have been a number of men getting really angry about alternative views being expressed- and saying, repeatedly in one or two cases, how angry they are.

I’ve got my own thoughts about why that is.

I actually said I was restraining myself.

And I have been engaging in the debate.

That doesn't mean Im not angry. It means I deal with it in a rational way

What's this got to do with being male?

The way I post on urban isn't hurling abuse. I'm usually fairly civil.

 

[Edie]

I was thinking similar, and why anyone else should give a toss about Gramsci getting angry!

Like just tolerate someone having a different pov

 

[Edie]

I actually said I was restraining myself.

And I have been engaging in the debate.

That doesn't mean Im not angry. It means I deal with it in a rational way

What's this got to do with being male?

The way I post on urban isn't hurling abuse. I'm usually fairly civil.

It’s just weird that you and another poster keep on saying how angry you are. Why are you saying that?

 

[Edie]

Relevant to our interests… in an excellent thread on X about the benefits of Brexit and stopping Freedom of Movement was this Reuters article.

Flexible hours, sick pay and meals: British workers get a better deal​

No paywall: https://archive.ph/2023.10.02-07260...s-british-workers-get-better-deal-2023-10-02/

It reports on improved salaries, more flexible working conditions, and more employment perks (lunch provided, private medical provision, paid sick leave etc) following both Brexit and Covid. This is particularly for lower paid more vulnerable workers.

Good for British working people, not so good for business especially small businesses.

 

[Gramsci]

I thought I had. Our own is those born and raised in Britain.

It's not mine.

I am British born and raised. But spend most of my time with those who aren't.

As it happens spent half of today working with a Kenyan.

Thinking on it I can do a whole day in London with no British born and raised people. Latin Americans , Africans , EU people and Irish. And to add the new Zealander as well.

These are what I regard as "our own".

Using "our own" has connotations of being anti immigrants. British jobs for British workers said by Gordon brown comes to mind. I'm sure he's not anti immigrants or racist. However using that kind of language in context of the seemingly never ending immigration debate in this country ( and others)is going to be seen by some like me as legitimising the way immigrants are portrayed as a threat to British way of life. And specifically " our own" working class. It helps normalise divisions between sections of the working class.

So for me personally as British born and raised no I do not subscribe to your definition of our own.

 

[PTK]

It’s just weird that you and another poster keep on saying how angry you are. Why are you saying that?

If what someone says makes others angry, then perhaps they should reflect on whether it may be the case that what they have said is offensive.

 

[PTK]

Relevant to our interests… in an excellent thread on X about the benefits of Brexit and stopping Freedom of Movement was this Reuters article.

Flexible hours, sick pay and meals: British workers get a better deal​

No paywall: https://archive.ph/2023.10.02-07260...s-british-workers-get-better-deal-2023-10-02/

It reports on improved salaries, more flexible working conditions, and more employment perks (lunch provided, private medical provision, paid sick leave etc) following both Brexit and Covid. This is particularly for lower paid more vulnerable workers.

Good for British working people, not so good for business especially small businesses.

Why is private medical provision a good thing, when it undemines the NHS?

 

[Edie]

Why is private medical provision a good thing, when it undemines the NHS?

Debate for another thread really. You’ve missed the wider point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not mine.

I am British born and raised. But spend most of my time with those who aren't.

As it happens spent half of today working with a Kenyan.

Thinking on it I can do a whole day in London with no British born and raised people. Latin Americans , Africans , EU people and Irish. And to add the new Zealander as well.

These are what I regard as "our own".

Using "our own" has connotations of being anti immigrants. British jobs for British workers said by Gordon brown comes to mind. I'm sure he's not anti immigrants or racist. However using that kind of language in context of the seemingly never ending immigration debate in this country ( and others)is going to be seen by some like me as legitimising the way immigrants are portrayed as a threat to British way of life. And specifically " our own" working class. It helps normalise divisions between sections of the working class.

So for me personally as British born and raised no I do not subscribe to your definition of our own.

Me neither. Reminds me of Linford Christie and how he was described in the media back in the day. When he was winning medals, he was reported in the media as 'British sprinter Linford Christie'. When he failed a drug test, he became 'Jamaica-born sprinter Linford Christie'.

 

[Edie]

If what someone says makes others angry, then perhaps they should reflect on whether it may be the case that what they have said is offensive.

That’s fair. Although there’s far too much anxiety about offending people with views (see trans debate- both sides). As long as you are not being personal or bullying it’s okay to discuss ideas others find offensive and for that debate to be robust.

 

[Edie]

It's not mine.

I am British born and raised. But spend most of my time with those who aren't.

As it happens spent half of today working with a Kenyan.

Thinking on it I can do a whole day in London with no British born and raised people. Latin Americans , Africans , EU people and Irish. And to add the new Zealander as well.

These are what I regard as "our own".

Using "our own" has connotations of being anti immigrants. British jobs for British workers said by Gordon brown comes to mind. I'm sure he's not anti immigrants or racist. However using that kind of language in context of the seemingly never ending immigration debate in this country ( and others)is going to be seen by some like me as legitimising the way immigrants are portrayed as a threat to British way of life. And specifically " our own" working class. It helps normalise divisions between sections of the working class.

So for me personally as British born and raised no I do not subscribe to your definition of our own.

I respect that’s your definition and your experience as a white British person who lives and works in London.

It’s not however a definition or experience shared by everyone. And you specifically asked me what I meant by it so I clarified.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That’s fair. Although there’s far too much anxiety about offending people with views (see trans debate- both sides). As long as you are not being personal or bullying it’s okay to discuss ideas others find offensive and for that debate to be robust.

Thing is, the reasons people have given for being angered have been misrepresented, ironically enough, including by you. Both DLR and I explicitly stated that what had angered us was having our views misrepresented by other posters, not the opinions of those posters themselves.

 

[cesare]

That’s fair. Although there’s far too much anxiety about offending people with views (see trans debate- both sides). As long as you are not being personal or bullying it’s okay to discuss ideas others find offensive and for that debate to be robust.

You're back here to resurrect trans debate, yeah?

 

[Edie]

You're back here to resurrect trans debate, yeah?

Would it matter if I offered views on it if it came up as a thread or is that not permitted any more? Unbelievably that’s a genuine question there appeared to be literally no dissent from the trans ideology and very few women contributing when I looked previously.

(I’ve no interest or intention on commenting on Cloos kids thread, which appears to be the only active one, as that’s too personal. It’s not my business what her kid does plus I like Cloo and I care about her kids.)

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Why is private medical provision a good thing, when it undemines the NHS?

Let face it, that's a great perk. I wish my employer offered private medical provision. It's ghastly having to rely on the NHS nowadays.

 

[Edie]

Let face it, that's a great perk. I wish my employer offered private medical provision. It's ghastly having to rely on the NHS nowadays.

It’s not just ghastly, it’s increasingly frequently life threateningly dangerous. I work in the nhs and I don’t trust it

My kids have private health insurance at the not for profit: Affordable Private Healthcare Provider | Benenden Health

That’s a public service announcement btw. That’s the most widely used one by other consultants that I know. My advice to you all is to protect your loved ones and ensure they can access timely healthcare.

Eta: I believe in the principle of healthcare free at the point of delivery- with the caveat that GP appointments should have a nominal charge to prevent widespread abuse of the system.

 

[belboid]

Why does anyone pretend that Edie is anything other than a reactionary little shit?