Not sure at all! Listened to Kamala’s speech in the car last night. Can hear parts of what you say for sure.
Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
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maomao
普費斯
A substantial majority of Americans support socialised healthcare (the figure goes down if you describe something like the NHS):
Increasing share of Americans favor a single government program to provide health care coverage
63% of U.S. adults say the government has the responsibility to provide health care coverage for all, up slightly from 59% last year.
www.pewresearch.org
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I don’t recognise car makes. In the past I’ve been at parties where the men and women split up and the men want to talk about cars. Literally all I can add is “I have one. I use it to go places”. Then I’m out. It just doesn’t interest me. I end up joining the women. Their conversation is always more interesting.
lazythursday
Averagely-Known Member
have we? Aren't we in the middle of the biggest stagnation of incomes, since like 1800 and something? I'm the first generation of my family to go to university, and I guess the first to be culturally pretty middle class, but my parents earned more, taking into account inflation, and had pensions I can only dream of. We've got more technology - that seems to me the only advance since the 70s, I think it's pretty difficult to argue that we have a better quality of life. And current levels of poverty are a lot higher than in the 70s.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Let’s leave the men thing. No point.
Also there’s no conclusion. You’re a kinda funny guy for thinking that peoples views are set like that. Most people are more flexible than that aren’t they?
The argument is pretty simple. But you have to understand American culture, at least parts of it, is different from the UK. Different mindset. Much more independent. So hold that in mind. Also I don’t believe all the below I’m just your correspondent over here
Anyway… Dependence on the state is a bad thing. This is for a number of reasons but probably the most fundamental and btw the one I most relate to is that you can’t really be free from the state if you are taking handouts. You are vulnerable and dependent. It’s very key to their deep seated suspicion of Government. Freedom. Second amendment etc
Then there’s an argument around shame about taking handouts. I hear that a lot. A single Mom I know here said she’d rather go on a date and eat salad bar and bring the steak home for her kids than collect welfare. That probably sounds extreme to British ears but I can respect that. There’s a deep cultural expectation that you make your own way, you provide for yourself and your dependents.
Alongside this is an idea that if you are not contributing to society (ie working) then you are on a kind of slippery slope morally. You lose your sense of pride and self esteem, more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol, more likely to not take care of your children, not take care of yourself or family or community. This is upside down from the British or socialist way of thinking so took me a while to see. For example- A lot of folk here truly believe homelessness is a blue state city problem and occurs at much lower rates in red states. I don’t know about that- may be bullshit.
When I’ve discussed the UK riots over here (most people hadn’t heard about them obviously) some of the responses I got were linked to what they perceive as a socialism problem. If British people are dependent on the state for things like healthcare then with a system that already cannot cope with demand then of course there will be riots.
Immigration is also a big topic here of course. The debate here is very polarised- there’s two Americas really. And the working class is mainly Trump.
This in garden across the road to make you laugh
View attachment 440050
What you posted was:
So it's not unreasonable to ask what conclusion you've come to now you have had a big think.
I don't expect peoples ideas to be fixed
People change their minds.
So perhaps I phrased it badly.
What's your present opinion now you have had a think?
You come on a left of centre website posting up stuff which is quite right wing and so far when asked your take on what you post up you say things like your just a correspondent.
Or I'm a funny guy
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
My doctor is Cuban. He says he'll go back at some point. Apart from my medical ailments, we've chatted about Cuban food, the blockade and music . I told him I had a copy of the Buena Vista Social Club and he asked if he could borrow it.
Yeah cars don’t really do much for me either. Although actually driving a Porsche is fun. It’s just a beautiful powerful thing. And speed is a kick. Less fun than drugs tho, or dancing in the kitchen, or belly laughing with your best mate, or feeling your child’s hand in yours, or falling in love.
Wealth is just the cherry on the cake.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Is it because the capitalist class has it's own divisions?
An outward looking global one that sees free movement of capital and labour as making a basis for profitable investments
And one more nationally based. Which sees free movement of capital definitely as a threat. I'm thinking in this country industry that is liable to be threatened with take over or foreign business flooding market with cheap goods. They would want a more protectionist state.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I find that my culture is being undermined by emojis. I do not know what most of them mean.This thread
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
We experienced a tornado in Cuba. It was quite a thing. I also ambushed the biggest bastard mosquito I've ever seen, which left a huge smear of my blood on the hotel room ceiling.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Posts like this based on aspects of right-wing extremist 'thinking' demand challenge. Even contemplating to what extent socialism (in the UK!) may have been a contributory factor in the recent racist riots indicates another troubling example of a willingness to articulate far-right 'talking points' that clearly have no basis in reality. I've read elsewhere that you claim to be some conduit or correspondent for the MAGA extremists with whom you communicate, but beyond trolling, I really can't see why you would entertain such dangerously, wrong-headed right-wing tosh in the first place.
Brogdale I know I can be a bit provocative sometimes, and need to be told to wind it in. But the other side of that is that other ideas, other ways of seeing things, other ways of living can have merit.
I don’t think socialists have a monopoly on knowing what is best for people. And some centre right ideas are attractive. Or just surprising and interesting.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
They're really not.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The racist riots arose, not out of socialism, but out of neoliberal capitalism or, as you put it, "other [meritable] ways of living". I see nothing attractive in the ideas you've absorbed from your extreme right-wing friends and don't see what ill-informed, sub-Randian tosh adds to the discussion here.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Reminds me I need to thank brogdale for having a go in answering this in his reply .
I gave this a bit of a think at tea time .
I can see the protectionist argument around the migration of capital and also outsourcing jobs which the Biden government took on board offering incentives to capitalists who had outsourced to come back home , hence creating jobs. However I’m not sure whether there were added restrictions on immigration .
Tbh I’m not sure whether I can identify a section of capital that would be against immigration. At one end of the demand for workers it can be a supply of wage stagnated labour , often not unionised , ideal for precarious , seasonal and platform based work ( ie Uber/bolt) and at the skilled end it’s off the peg without any investment skilled labour . You’ll remember the moans in the hospitality industry when after covid and Brexit numbers of EU staff went back to Europe and there were pay rises. Also for lorry drivers which then caused the haulage industry to also give wage rises and expand training for drivers . Their short term thinking exposed as they had several years to risk assess labour shortages.
This is very much thinking out loud as I have one eye on the football at the moment . I’ll come back with some more thoughts . Thanks .
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It is good to be clear on this point, though. The underlying cause of the racist riots was racism.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
There's been plenty of posters putting there quite personal perspective on immigration / race and culture here. I've read a lot of this thread.
Other ways of seeing things and other ways of living.
More so than on other politics threads.
Yet continually you go on about a left who aren't in touch with ordinary people.
Am I reading the same thread as you?
Or is it you see your role here to bring the viewpoints of Trump supporters etc to these socialists here who live in a bubble disconnected from the real world?
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
It has been suffocating living under the socialist republic of the UK to be fair. Red Rishi was an absolute tyrant.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The racist twats who rioted are the ones disconnected from the real world. Again, good to be clear on this point.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Hot on the heels of Truss the Trot and Boris the Bolshevik. He even has a Russian name ffs.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
This is quite bizarre; why do you fell that you "need to be told to wind it in" and who needs to do that?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I have actually criticised my Labour council in previous posts for thinking it had a "monopoly" on how to live in a multicultural society.
This perception of this thread that it doesn't have other ways of seeing and viewpoints is a distortion of the ground covered in this thread
And tbf it's a typical right wing way to criticise the left or centre left.
This perception of this thread that it doesn't have other ways of seeing and viewpoints is a distortion of the ground covered in this thread
And tbf it's a typical right wing way to criticise the left or centre left.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's frequently a case of the aphorism that 'you're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to your own facts'. Many of the r/w talking points around immigration are provably wrong. That's not claiming a monopoly on ideas, merely asking for some rigour when it comes to facts.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What I do notice is how debates on immigration ( and I'm not just going on about this thread) get to be debates about what sort of society people want and how it's run.
I myself don't feel its entirely healthy for a country/ society to use immigration as the pillar around which these debates happen.
I myself don't feel its entirely healthy for a country/ society to use immigration as the pillar around which these debates happen.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Why does it have to be balanced? This is not the BBC.Yeah, but they've all been lefties!
Don't pretend it's been a balanced discussion
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but they've all been lefties!
Don't pretend it's been a balanced discussion
Have they?
I do live in inner London. Which is A very diverse area. And posted up some of the views of people I work with. And my own
That's my life. It's not particularly lefty in the context of area I live in
I'm involved in local community stuff when I have time. And whilst there are differences of opinion in communities it's not about being lefty
90 percent of people I deal with on day to day basis would be voting Labour or Green. A few liberal.
So thankfully I don't have to listen to a lot of right wing stuff.
Going back to kabbes my daily life is to paraphrase him on nationalism a kind of "banal" left. It's an inner London vaguely socialist with small s local culture. I don't think a lot of inner London people would say they were ideologically socialist btw.
To add that is imo one reason why in my area we didn't have race riots.
Lefties aren't some kind of middle class Islington woman foisting there ideas on our own
I'm not actually that keen on term lefty. Particularly as I'm not that good at it.
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