Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[Spymaster]

Why does it have to be balanced?

Well that's up to you but Gramsci is berating Edie for apparently suggesting that lefties are out of touch with ordinary people, and citing opinions on this thread as evidence to the contrary.

See the problem here?

 

[brogdale]

Well that's up to you but Gramsci is berating Edie for apparently suggesting that lefties are out of touch with ordinary people and citing opinions on this thread as evidence to the contrary.

See the problem here?

The problem here is the posting up of ill-informed, factually incorrect, bigoted stereotypical right-wing views by someone who appears not to appreciate criticism or challenge.

 

[Spymaster]

The problem here is the posting up of ill-informed, factually incorrect, bigoted stereotypical right-wing views by someone who appears not to appreciate criticism or challenge.

Regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of this, Gramsci's point is no less misconceived.

 

[Serge Forward]

Well that's up to you but Gramsci is berating Edie for apparently suggesting that lefties are out of touch with ordinary people, and citing opinions on this thread as evidence to the contrary.

See the problem here?

Nah, seems more like Edie's been doing the old "just thinking aloud, just saying, just asking questions" thing.

Oh, and the whole "out of touch lefties" stuff is based on a tired right wing media trope of some middle class liberal from the "North London metropolitan elite"... yawn.

 

[brogdale]

Regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of this, Gramsci's point is no less misconceived.

On the contrary; Gramsci is quite correct in saying that many posters, including yourself, have offered their own, varied real life experiences to add to this discussion.

 

[Spymaster]

Oh, and the whole "out of touch lefties" stuff is based on a tired right wing media trope of some middle class liberal from the "North London metropolitan elite"...

Sounds like an arsehole

 

[Serge Forward]

Or a strawman to discredit anyone on the left.

 

[Happy Tree]

I'm open to reading some right, center, whatever-wing ways of life that have merit. But in talking about them the merit needs to be explained and justified. So far I haven't read any justification for the merit of right-wing ideology. When I do I can evaluate it.

 

[Humberto]

The context is though that this won't stop being an issue. The issue of asylum seeking.

Now some say refugees don't belong here in our green and pleasant land. But if the UK is determined to make it a hostile inhospitable unwelcoming environment for people who have crossed deserts and seas on packed rafts then you neither understand the situation or care if people are murdered by the state as a choice.

People in Whitehall are quite prepared to obfuscate that reality, whether you agree or aquiesce to that is your call. It's very similar to Israel's treatment of Gaza. If you look the other way it will be better for 'us'. 'Hear my concern', whilst I consign hell and murder for others.

 

[Humberto]

By the grace of God it's them and not you. 'The God that made you made them too'.

Now if that's the way you want to go, ok but I and others will take issue.

Could you cross an African desert with people trying to attack you, with a young family in transit? Only to end up in Libya and be extorted or sent back again with the approval of the EU?

 

[Humberto]

When will the wars stop and what is the Prime Minister doing to stop them?

 

[Edie]

When will the wars stop and what is the Prime Minister doing to stop them?

I think you may be over estimating the reach here. We’re just not that important I’m afraid.

 

[brogdale]

I'm open to reading some right, center, whatever-wing ways of life that have merit. But in talking about them the merit needs to be explained and justified. So far I haven't read any justification for the merit of right-wing ideology. When I do I can evaluate it.

Agreed, some explanation of how right-wing ideas might have improved society or prevented the recent racist riots would be interesting, but the whole exercise would appear to overlook that, for the best part of 50 years, we have had to live under successive administrations that have legislated to produce right-wing outcomes.

FWIW, Edie has illustrated her belief in right-wing ideology with examples of "benefits" of "attractive" right-wing outcomes that include negative freedom (classical liberalism), less dependence culture with no welfare state/social housing in which folk are free to be even poorer/homeless, 'trickle-down' economics in which wealth (Porsche owning included) is celebrated, building each other's houses, home schooling and an overt ("patriotic") love of one's nation state.

Draws you in, doesn't it?

 

[PTK]

Agreed, some explanation of how right-wing ideas might have improved society or prevented the recent racist riots would be interesting, but the whole exercise would appear to overlook that, for the best part of 50 years, we have had to live under successive administrations that have legislated to produce right-wing outcomes.

FWIW, Edie has illustrated her belief in right-wing ideology with examples of "benefits" of "attractive" right-wing outcomes that include negative freedom (classical liberalism), less dependence culture with no welfare state/social housing in which folk are free to be even poorer/homeless, 'trickle-down' economics in which wealth (Porsche owning included) is celebrated, building each other's houses, home schooling and an overt ("patriotic") love of one's nation state.

Draws you in, doesn't it?

.

 

[Happy Tree]

The only thing that trickles down from the wealthy is the sound of their laughter as they don't use their wealth to invest in anyone or anything but themselves. The really well-off even siphon off massive amounts into tax havens, thus not circulating the money anywhere and effectively just removing it from existence. Why they do that I have no idea.

 

[brogdale]

The only thing that trickles down from the wealthy is the sound of their laughter as they don't use their wealth to invest in anyone or anything but themselves. The really well-off even siphon off massive amounts into tax havens, thus not circulating the money anywhere and effectively just removing it from existence. Why they do that I have no idea.

A very good point. Our soi disant MAGA correspondent was exercised about the (2018 estimate) of £7.7 to 23.6 billion of taxed income repatriated by immigrant workers but, as yet, has had nothing to say about the estimated £1.2 trillion that UK capital & HNWIs will 'expatriate' to their tax havens over the next decade to escape our tax regime. If accurate (& my Maths is anywhere near good enough?) that estimate would suggest UK tax haven flows of over £100 billion per annum.
source 1

There are several sources of information on remittances. Both the World Bank Annual Remittances Data and Eurostatbase their estimates on the UK’s balance of payments, according to which remittance outflows from the UK stood roughly at GBP 7.7 billion in 2018. It is likely that this estimate is lower than the true amount of flows because it does not include unofficial transfers. It also fails to account for any social benefits, including social security and pensions, that nonresidents acquire while living in the UK or donations from UK residents to non-profits abroad in the context of international development. World Bank Bilateral Remittances Matrix suggests that outflows from the UK are close to GBP 23.6 billion.

source 2

Countries could lose $4.7 trillion in tax revenue over the next decade as multinational corporations and wealthy individuals continue to use tax havens to underpay taxes, according to a new report. And among the jurisdictions enabling the loss of public money, the report says, are those that set global tax rules.

The State of Tax Justice 2023, authored by advocacy group Tax Justice Network, identifies four countries responsible for the majority of global corporate tax loss, dubbing them “the axis of tax avoidance:” the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Switzerland.

The U.K., along with its so-called “second empire” — its overseas territories and crown dependencies — is responsible for nearly a quarter (24%) of such losses, making it “the world’s greatest enabler of global corporate tax abuse,” the reports says. The “second empire” has historically served as “satellite offshore jurisdictions” to facilitate illicit financial flows and corporate profit shifting to tax-free territories.

Together, the U.K., the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Switzerland are responsible for more than half of the $301 billion lost to corporate tax abuse annually, TJN found, with an estimated $151 billion lost from $550 billion in corporate money moved to the four countries.

 

[danny la rouge]

So, anyone who was into explaining want to explain to Edie why she shouldn’t be “questioning” the welfare state, celebrating the Empire, waving at Porches and waving Union Flags?

 

[brogdale]

So, anyone who was into explaining want to explain to Edie why she shouldn’t be “questioning” the welfare state, celebrating the Empire, waving at Porches and waving Union Flags?

As with all posters, they can question whatever they want. But expecting to articulate such repellent views without criticism or push-back appears deluded to the point that I've wondered if it is merely trolling.

 

[Edie]

A very good point. Our soi disant MAGA correspondent was exercised about the (2018 estimate) of £7.7 to 23.6 billion of taxed income repatriated by immigrant workers but, as yet, has had nothing to say about the estimated £1.2 trillion that UK capital & HNWIs will 'expatriate' to their tax havens over the next decade to escape our tax regime. If accurate (& my Maths is anywhere near good enough?) that estimate would suggest UK tax haven flows of over £100 billion per annum.
source 1

source 2

Not slept as been on red eye. But for the record I said good for immigrant workers sending money home and looking after their own families. Nothing wrong with that and to be expected. Ftr I also think wealthy people should and do pay the most tax.

 

[Gramsci]

Not slept as been on red eye. But for the record I said good for immigrant workers sending money home and looking after their own families. Nothing wrong with that and to be expected. Ftr I also think wealthy people should and do pay the most tax.

Not quite:

If we opened our borders then understandably a lot of workers from poorer countries will flock here, driving down wages, putting English people out of work and claiming benefits. Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country. How the fuck is any of that in the working class interest? It ain't.

And you qualified that after being asked about it by

Migrant remittances now make up the largest source of income for many developing countries.

And maybe that’s a good thing. Globally. Is it a good thing locally? I don’t know!

So as far as I can gather your saying it doesn't benefit our own working class.

 

[Edie]

So, anyone who was into explaining want to explain to Edie why she shouldn’t be “questioning” the welfare state, celebrating the Empire, waving at Porches and waving Union Flags?

I’ll question whatever I want Danny. Including the State. Because, thank God, currently that doesn’t get you locked up. Imagine living under the East German communist regime when they had an actual Stasi. Terrible thing. I remember the Wall coming down when I was a kid and the sheer joy and freedom. Never again eh.

 

[Serge Forward]

Christ. Bit of a weird tangent.

 

[The39thStep]

That’s a good post @39thStep as, I’m well aware that I can hold all of those apparently contradictory ideas (and more) simultaneously

My take on the apparent contradiction of capital wanting immigration and yet, at the same time their political wing drip feeding the racist divide and rule is explained by the differing supply side needs of the economic base and the electoral imperative of the political superstructure.

Throughout my lifetime, and probably yours too, immigration has grown the economy but also been a go-to wedge issue for the right seeking electoral power.

Having successfully divided the working class, the broader national identity element of the “culture “ is, IMO, there to hide or subjugate class antagonism.

So, for me, the apparent contradictions are just that, apparent. Everything above is consistent with accelerating neoliberal forms of accumulation and regressive transfers of wealth.

Gramsci I don't think there is any evidence of a section of capital financing racism as say Guerin showed in his book on Fascism and Big Business of heavy industry being amongst the biggest backers of Hitler as war meant full order books. I think the drip drip racism is more a case of yet more divide and rule ie deserving immigrants and undeserving immigrants , white v black, highly skilled versus low skilled etc . Perhaps in some cases, the ideal immigrant labour force would be one that would be temporary/fixed term almost like the guest workers concept that avoids the inconvenience of integration and citizenship? Anyway, I'd locate the issue in the political superstructure which would only get backing from sections of capital if there was something in it for them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’ll question whatever I want Danny. Including the State. Because, thank God, currently that doesn’t get you locked up. Imagine living under the East German communist regime when they had an actual Stasi. Terrible thing. I remember the Wall coming down when I was a kid and the sheer joy and freedom. Never again eh.

yeh for a brief time it looked like things would be really good in the 90s, from 9.11.89 to 2.8.90 and the subsequent gulf war, and everything that happened afterwards.

as for 'what gets you locked up,' well pretty much anything can here. You know we were lied to about there being no political police in Britain?

 

[danny la rouge]

I’ll question whatever I want Danny. Including the State. Because, thank God, currently that doesn’t get you locked up. Imagine living under the East German communist regime when they had an actual Stasi. Terrible thing. I remember the Wall coming down when I was a kid and the sheer joy and freedom. Never again eh.

Yes, I said you should be sent to a gulag for saying you’ve

been having a big think again about state handouts and state dependency and it’s potential damaging impact on society.

That’s what I said. Because I’m a big old Tanky and I always have been.

 

[brogdale]

Not slept as been on red eye. But for the record I said good for immigrant workers sending money home and looking after their own families. Nothing wrong with that and to be expected. Ftr I also think wealthy people should and do pay the most tax.

Thanks for the reply despite being sleep deprived.

When you first introduced migrant remittance of earnings into the discussion you did not appear to raise the issue as "good for the immigrant workers", but instead cast it as an element of your concerns about immigration and claimed that the process was not in the interest of the working class:

If we opened our borders then understandably a lot of workers from poorer countries will flock here, driving down wages, putting English people out of work and claiming benefits. Most of the money they make will understandably be sent home to there relatives out of this country. How the fuck is any of that in the working class interest? It ain't.

And your right-wing belief that the wealthy pay the most tax is, of course, a myth. In reality the bourgeoise ensure that their wealth is either held beyond the UK's tax jurisdiction or in asset classes that attract lower rates of tax than working people pay on their income.

Again, where do you get these notions from?

 

[Edie]

The problem here is the posting up of ill-informed, factually incorrect, bigoted stereotypical right-wing views by someone who appears not to appreciate criticism or challenge.

I dunno where you got the bit about not appreciating challenge because I genuinely enjoy it.

That said, I really don’t have to post here if that’s the general consensus. I find not being able to speak freely about woman's rights and Cass etc really suffocating anyway which is why I left 18 months ago. Spy said I should come back so I did but honestly clearly how I see things is a million miles apart now and I don’t really care much either way.

I quite enjoy a good argument about stuff and hearing other views. But if on balance you don’t that’s cool, I’ll go back to Telegraph

 

[brogdale]

I dunno where you got the bit about not appreciating challenge because I genuinely enjoy it.

That said, I really don’t have to post here if that’s the general consensus. I find not being able to speak freely about woman's rights and Cass etc really suffocating anyway which is why I left 18 months ago. Spy said I should come back so I did but honestly clearly how I see things is a million miles apart now and I don’t really care much either way.

I quite enjoy a good argument about stuff and hearing other views. But if on balance you don’t that’s cool, I’ll go back to Telegraph

You do as you please.

 

[Edie]

You do as you please.

I know and I will obviously, just in two minds really. I was wondering what others preference was, and if it’s to just discuss things from a left point of view that really is fine. The internets a big place.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I know and I will obviously, just in two minds really. I was wondering what others preference was, and if it’s to just discuss things from a left point of view that really is fine. The internets a big place.

Personally, I hope you stay Edie. I always enjoy your posts. We don't have to agree on everything.