ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
What sort of abuse do you mean?
Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?
- Thread starter mojo pixy
- Start date
PTK
Paul Kegan
Using private medicine is queue-jumping, in my view, and therefore wrong.
DNAs mainly
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Come on, the question works fine without this bit, personal attacks etc. We don't have to agree but there's no need for actual insults.
(Trying to be even-handed
)
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PTK
Paul Kegan
Great, deter people even more from going to the Doctor.It’s not just ghastly, it’s increasingly frequently life threateningly dangerous. I work in the nhs and I don’t trust it
My kids have private health insurance at the not for profit: Affordable Private Healthcare Provider | Benenden Health
That’s a public service announcement btw. That’s the most widely used one by other consultants that I know. My advice to you all is to protect your loved ones and ensure they can access timely healthcare.
Eta: I believe in the principle of healthcare free at the point of delivery- with the caveat that GP appointments should have a nominal charge to prevent widespread abuse of the system.
PTK
Paul Kegan
There is but one queue.Good luck with that
Makes no sense tho. You’re actually removing yourself from the queue. But cba to argue it here it’s another thread.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
What am I reacting to?
I couldn’t care less about your insults to be honest belboid it’s literally water off a ducks back to me. Go ahead with worse. I’ll just laugh at you.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You're the one that raised the subject, not me. If you've no interest, why raise it?Would it matter if I offered views on it if it came up as a thread or is that not permitted any more? Unbelievably that’s a genuine questionthere appeared to be literally no dissent from the trans ideology and very few women contributing when I looked previously.
(I’ve no interest or intention on commenting on Cloos kids thread, which appears to be the only active one, as that’s too personal. It’s not my business what her kid does plus I like Cloo and I care about her kids.)
Seriously Elizabeth, take a look at the not for profit link I posted. It’s affordable but works on a graded approach- more benefits the longer you are a member.
I too wish the NHS worked. But it doesn’t. Provision even for 2ww cancer is an absolute roulette now I’m afraid. Maternity services are dire. CAMHS non-existent except via A&E or crisis care. Ortho you’ll wait literally years in pain. Patients now dying in A&E waiting rooms. Paeds still holding on I find.
It’s desperately sad. I find it desperately sad.
But I don’t think anyone should ignore the reality anymore and out of self preservation should find alternative options.
It was an example of how debate gets closed down in an authoritarian way by accusations of offence.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
No it wasn't
You couldn't even contain yourself to a non trans thread before making it about that.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're ignoring the way going private can erode the ability of the nhs in certain areas eg cataract operations Eye doctors say private cataract operations have hurt the NHS by going private you encourage the decline of the nhs. But as the auld Irish saying goes its easy to lie on another man's wound
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Sorry but I'm not clear.
I didn't say anything about colour. Yes I'm white but didn't say that in my post. I said British.
Your definition of people born and raised here being "our own" does that mean white British people?
As white has slipped in here
Look at the end of the day you are all welcome to not use private healthcare. And I hope when it comes to it the NHS will deliver in a timely effective way for you. I can tell you for sure if it doesn’t it won’t be for the lack of trying by me and my colleagues. I work full time (48 hours full time) and with locums necessary to keep the rota full I can work insane hours each week. It still doesn’t make it work.
No I meant your experience of society and immigration within society will be as a white person.
The kids my sons grew up with (predominantly British Pakistani, black and white working class) are as British as them.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Your definition does exclude those who were born and raised elsewhere and went through the process of becoming a British citizen.
To tell someone whose gone through the long process of becoming a British citizen that they aren't :
.
To someone whose done all the effort to get British citizenship it might be a bit annoying to be told yes your British but you aren't "ours".
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
This is very fair. I'd include all British citizens as "our own," plus all the people who were born or brought up here but aren't British citizens due to immigration rules that are largely part of the hostile environment (Windrush generation, children of EU citizens, etc). And TBH I'd also include most non-citizens who came here as adults, are settled here and only aren't citizens due to the cost of getting citizenship.
One of my daughter's friends isn't a British citizen despite being born here and having lived all but a year of her life here. It wasn't applied for for her before she was an adult, when it would have been relatively straightforward and cheap due to fee waivers, because her Mum didn't think it was important - their citizenship is Italian. Brexit happened when she was an adult (by a matter of months), and then it became important, but she can't afford it. It would be, IMO, bizarre not to count her as "our own." Especially since said friend's sister, younger by two years, got British citizenship relatively cheaply due to being under 18 and eligible for the fee waiver. She's not actually more British than her sister, they're both "our own."
Due to that "quirk" of citizenship and age, only one of them gets to vote in general elections.
(Plus the fee waiver rules for under-18s are fairly tight and it's a lot of admin, so I expect a fair few kids slip through the gaps).
TBF, Edie's definition would include both of them (and Windrush, etc) but some people - people in general, not on this thread - focus on citizenship alone. Some also focus on birthplace alone, which excludes huge numbers of people who were brought up in the UK.
Same for one of my closest friends who wasn't born or brought up here, but has lived in the UK for over 30 years - she just can't afford the fees. I'd reject any definition that didn't include her as "our own."
The UK is, of course, not the only country that has citizenship rules that rule out a lot of people who really are part of this country, and it's actually better than some, but that doesn't mean we can't advocate for improvements.
FWIW, I apologise that this post is a bit of a mess and probably difficult to read.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Yes definitions of what constitutes Our Own seem straightforward but they aren't.
And behind them are often assumptions about who belongs and who doesn't.
The definition is one that has been contested and changed over time.
Take the Windrush scandal. I know of two cases. Someone's Uncle and someone born here who came up against the Hostile Environment when they tried to renew their passport.
Both had their Our Own Britishness challenged.
The Uncle was one of those who came here after WW2 from Carribbean. For people of that generation regarded themselves as British. As being subjects of the Queen in the Empire. As they had been a part of the British Empire. That may not have been strictly the legal situation but it was the common feeling for those who came here as the Windrush generation. And they had been encouraged to think they were when needed for WW2 for example.
He had to spend a lot of money , not be able to work whilst this was going on.and face the prospect of deportation. He had to fight the idea that he was not one of Our Own,
For Black British people being part of Our Own had to be fought for. They weren't welcome when they came here. Suffered a lot of discrimination. And certainly people expressed their concerns then. Which led to changes in immigration policy over time.
Which is one reason I get irritated by blase view its somehow straightforward simple thing to say- Our Own
Its imo highly political to say Our Own. And can change.
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Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Would Nigel Farage, Rees Mogg, Tim Wotsisname of Whetherspoons, Richard Branson, Liz Truss, Suella Braverman, Tommy Robinson, etc, "our own"? Not in my eyes. They're dreck. Shit under our collective shoes. People in "small boats" however, sure there'll probably be some cunts among them, but by and large, they are our own, as far as I'm concerned.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Some of you wankers need to wind it in a bit.
I'd define "our people" as those that have made the decision to accept the values of a free and open society, and live in the UK right now.
Nobody has come close to saying that's "white people"; and the couple of twats (looking at brogdale et al) who've lobbed that around should be ashamed.
"Anarchy" is a thought experiment that has not ever, and will not ever, be practiced by any sane society.
Ditto, "open borders"
A sensible immigration policy has to consider who is here now, and who wants to come here.
I don't want people who think my girls (who wear short skirts and make up) are whores; or that homosexuals should be killed; that blacks are lazy criminals; or that white people are superior, to be welcomed here.
Neither do I want rapists, paedophiles, or a whole host of other cunts, to be allowed entrance to the country. We've got enough already, thanks.
A functionally robust immigration policy is necessary.
Wrt the thread topic; nobody who's not a complete fucking idiot should be unconcerned about immigration.
It's a matter of degree.
I'd define "our people" as those that have made the decision to accept the values of a free and open society, and live in the UK right now.
Nobody has come close to saying that's "white people"; and the couple of twats (looking at brogdale et al) who've lobbed that around should be ashamed.
"Anarchy" is a thought experiment that has not ever, and will not ever, be practiced by any sane society.
Ditto, "open borders"
A sensible immigration policy has to consider who is here now, and who wants to come here.
I don't want people who think my girls (who wear short skirts and make up) are whores; or that homosexuals should be killed; that blacks are lazy criminals; or that white people are superior, to be welcomed here.
Neither do I want rapists, paedophiles, or a whole host of other cunts, to be allowed entrance to the country. We've got enough already, thanks.
A functionally robust immigration policy is necessary.
Wrt the thread topic; nobody who's not a complete fucking idiot should be unconcerned about immigration.
It's a matter of degree.
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Not defending the DDR but I've known a few people from East Germany over the years and their view on it is much more nuanced than this. I find in particular they dislike their story being told by West Germans in the terms you described. A German friend told me views on East Germany are pretty evenly split, about a third idealise the DDR, a third think it was awful, and another third are apolitical/ neutral.
Some reading for you which gives a clearer idea of how East Germans think about the time, in particular this quote rings true to me as quite typical of East German thinking and irritation with the way their history is framed-
Ostalgie: Revisiting East Germany | Los Angeles Review of Books
Does nostalgia for the old East Berlin come from a deeper longing for socialism?
East German culture has been ignored for too long. Until we embrace it, our country will remain dangerously divided | Carolin Würfel
When the stories of people like me who lived in the old socialist republic are dismissed, shame can spiral into anger that fuels the far right, says writer and journalist Carolin Würfel
Homesick for a Dictatorship: Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism
Glorification of the German Democratic Republic is on the rise two decades after the Berlin Wall fell. Young people and the better off are among those rebuffing criticism of East Germany as an "illegitimate state." In a new poll, more than half of former eastern Germans defend the GDR.
You've talked a lot about right wing American views but I don't see how these are terribly relevant to the topic at hand. It clearly isn't true that rioters were motivated by competition for state handouts, that isn't the terms in which people think at all, and Americans who know nothing of the world beyond the US making up some narrative which suits them doesn't add very much to the discussion IMO.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The excellent social services and women's participation in the workforce don't mean a thing to you then. I was in Germany several times shortly after reunification and heard about discontent because of it being an effective swallowing of east Germany by the west rather than the best of both systems being kept. Things like women crane drivers / operators losing their jobs - perfectly fine in the ddr, banned in the west, where only men could do the job. Sure, there were lots of things wrong with the ddr. But there were and are many things wrong with west Germany too, but none of these were addressed in the process by which east rejoined west
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I would have thought the biggest threat to freedom is now the right / far right.
If one is Spanish or South American the memory of authoritarian states is that they are from the right. Not the left.
Watching US news and the liberal/ Democrat side of US for example see a Trump election as a threat to democracy.
If one is Spanish or South American the memory of authoritarian states is that they are from the right. Not the left.
Watching US news and the liberal/ Democrat side of US for example see a Trump election as a threat to democracy.
This is incredibly out of touch and out of date.
UK millennials are worse off than previous generations
The evidence shows that millennials today are getting a raw deal. And, ultimately, that's a political choice.
moneyweek.com
Me and my millenial sister have had much more difficult lives financially than my late boomer/early Gen X parents.
Biggest part of the reason for this is the over inflated housing market, not any lack of resources. Other people's wealth in assets literally creates poverty
And more further education is not necessarily a good thing. E.g. nurses used to be able to start as trainees out of school, earning while learning, instead of doing an expensive university degree for several years, accumulating debt and struggling to survive unless your parents have deep pockets. This isn't an improvement, and it speaks more to an increased unwillingness of employers to invest in skills.
My dad left school at 16, worked as a trainee electrician in a factory for a decent income and bought a house and had 2 kids. When the factory got outsourced when I was a baby he retrained as a maths teacher, fully funded. Neither of those options are available to young people now and me and my sister are envious that he not only got a decent job without years of education but also had support for retraining when circumstances changed.
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mojo pixy
שיר חדש
You can assert this all you want, you haven't backed it up with anything. It's just your personal little reckon (though I'm sure you'll try to claim its 'just common sense' or whatever, you don't and won't have any facts to support it with). As you say, 'we' have enough rapists, racists etc; but in doing so you're suggesting that immigrants in general are probably rapists, racists etc. That is pretty vile, and btw straight out of the EDL dogwhistle code book so well done
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
how easily the peruvian government of juan velasco alvarado is forgotten, as is that of chavez in venezuela - not to mention the famous cuban government of castro (albeit perhaps not in s. america)
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Utter bollocks. Made-up shit, straight out of the bullshitter’s handbook.
There’s a lot of that on this thread.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind's blowing
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