Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[zedr]

Neither do I want rapists, paedophiles, or a whole host of other cunts, to be allowed entrance to the country. We've got enough already, thanks.

Not going to get into this whole post, but I think theres an important point to be made about the idea the immigration controls prevents rapists and pedophiles from coming into the country. The majority of people who commit these heinous acts are not only never caught, if they are caught they are - in the case of rape - rarely convicted. There is no way that immigration controls can actually be claimed to actually be protective in this way, unless you just blanket ban immigration.

I think rhetoric like this very much plays into the hands of racists and the far right. I'm sure this isn't what you're trying to do. But that sentence is something which Tommy Robinson and those who think like him would strongly agree with.

 

[Pickman's model]

And yet we have, even comparing our Gen X to our boomer parents, become increasingly wealthier, had a better quality of life, more further education, more travel, and a bigger middle class. So yunno it’s not all bad. Maybe the rich getting richer doesn’t matter. Maybe the only thing that matters is the reduction in absolute poverty. The rest is all to play for.

There’s some class antagonism, but it’s pretty low level stuff- mostly taking the piss out of posh people. There’s no appetite for getting rid of the rich- that idea is alien as far as I can tell. Success certainly isn’t overtly celebrated in the UK as it is in America where complete strangers will honk and give you a thumbs up if you drive a Porsche.

But maybe not- maybe the only metric that matters is comparative wealth and inequality drives misery. Would we all be happier if everyone earnt circa 50k a year?

i don't know from where you derive your information about increasing wealth but you should try a different source as it's utter bollocks.

 

[Edie]

I would have thought the biggest threat to freedom is now the right / far right.

If one is Spanish or South American the memory of authoritarian states is that they are from the right. Not the left.

Watching US news and the liberal/ Democrat side of US for example see a Trump election as a threat to democracy.

Yes. Absolutely agree with this! Increasingly real threat in America.

Trump is absolutely insane. The bending of truth, the manipulation, the outright threat to democracy. Very dangerous man.

My other half doesn’t believe in democracy. He thinks a degree of autocracy is necessary for longer term strategy. We have furious arguments about it.

 

[Spymaster]

Not going to get into this whole post, but I think theres an important point to be made about the idea the immigration controls prevents rapists and pedophiles from coming into the country. The majority of people who commit these heinous acts are not only never caught, if they are caught they are - in the case of rape - rarely convicted. There is no way that immigration controls can actually be claimed to actually be protective in this way, unless you just blanket ban immigration.

I think rhetoric like this very much plays into the hands of racists and the far right. I'm sure this isn't what you're trying to do. But that sentence is something which Tommy Robinson and those who think like him would strongly agree with.

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones as a matter of course.

 

[Pickman's model]

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones

we could bar conrad black for a start

 

[maomao]

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones as a matter of course.

This is already the case so I'm not sure what you're blethering on about.

 

[Spymaster]

This is already the case so I'm not sure what you're blethering on about.

I’m agreeing with it and responding to Z, as well as forestalling any suggestion that it should be weakened.

I assume you agree with it too.

 

[Spymaster]

we could bar conrad black for a start

Thought he was dead.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thought he was dead.

checked before i posted

 

[Pickman's model]

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones as a matter of course.

there's also already a means by which the home secretary can bar people from the country if their presence in the uk is likely to be detrimental to the public good, so you don't need a conviction to be barred

 

[mojo pixy]

Utter bollocks. Made-up shit, straight out of the bullshitter’s handbook.

There’s a lot of that on this thread.

OK so why mention racists and rapists and paedophiles then? You did that, nobody else did: "We've got enough", right? So how is anyone meant to take it, if not as a suggestion that immigration brings more?

I mean, someone's definitely bullshitting here, that much is true. But you're the one citing rapists, rapists and paedophiles as a concern about immigration so maybe have a think about how that looks.

 

[zedr]

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones as a matter of course.

Right, I understand that when you use the terms rapists and pedophiles you mean those convicted.

However when that rhetoric of rapists and pedophiles is used when discussing immigration, it is a dogwhistle because a number of people will not mean those convicted, but will think 'those Muslims'.

 

[Spymaster]

OK so why mention racists and rapists and paedophiles then? You did that, nobody else did: "We've got enough", right? So how is anyone meant to take it, if not as a suggestion that immigration brings more?

I mean, someone's definitely bullshitting here, that much is true. But you're the one citing rapists, rapists and paedophiles as a concern about immigration so maybe have a think about how that looks.

Oh, ffs.

Do you disagree that certain people should be excluded from entering the country, whether to live or visit?

 

[Spymaster]

However when that rhetoric of rapists and pedophiles is used when discussing immigration, it is a dogwhistle because a number of people will not mean those convicted, but will think 'those Muslims'.

Then those “number of people” are fucking idiots.

 

[mojo pixy]

Any immigration policy should exclude criminals convicted of serious offences.

The fact that not all criminals have been convicted is immaterial. We should exclude the known ones as a matter of course.

Again, you say this but again, I'm scenting bullshit; you started with

I don't want people who think my girls (who wear short skirts and make up) are whores; or that homosexuals should be killed; that blacks are lazy criminals; or that white people are superior, to be welcomed here.

These might be shitty attitudes but they aren't crimes you can get convicted for, so your point about convicted criminals doesn't really wash.

 

[chilango]

Oh, ffs.

Do you disagree that certain people should be excluded from entering the country, whether to live or visit?

Why choose to highlight "rapists" rather than "tax evaders" (for example) then?

 

[Edie]

i don't know from where you derive your information about increasing wealth but you should try a different source as it's utter bollocks.

Yes, maybe this is wrong.

How would we judge this? (Am I just being jet lagged and stupid but how do you compare wealth over generations?)

 

[LakieLady]

And more further education is not necessarily a good thing. E.g. nurses used to be able to start as trainees out of school, earning while learning, instead of doing an expensive university degree for several years, accumulating debt and struggling to survive unless your parents have deep pockets. This isn't an improvement, and it speaks more to an increased unwillingness of employers to invest in skills.

That used to apply to all sorts of professions. I know people who qualified as civil engineers, town planners, librarians, accountants and solicitors by getting decent A-levels and then getting a job with a company/local authority that was happy to fund their training. It took a long time, but they were paid while doing it. It was a great route into a profession for bright kids from working class backgrounds.

I think all those professions are graduate only now.

 

[Spymaster]

Again, you say this but again, I'm scenting bullshit; you started with



These might be shitty attitudes but they aren't crimes you can get convicted for, so your point about convicted criminals doesn't really wash.

More utter bollocks.

Absolute mendacious shit.

 

[Edie]

Your definition does exclude those who were born and raised elsewhere and went through the process of becoming a British citizen.

To tell someone whose gone through the long process of becoming a British citizen that they aren't :
.


To someone whose done all the effort to get British citizenship it might be a bit annoying to be told yes your British but you aren't "ours".

Yes, absolutely agree with you and scifisam

 

[mojo pixy]

Oh, ffs.

Do you disagree that certain people should be excluded from entering the country, whether to live or visit?

I might well, but that's not really the point. Our immigration policy isn't primarily designed to exclude rapists and paedophiles, it's primarily designed to exclude poor people. Convicted rapists and child abusers may well be excluded by law, but really only if they haven't enough money or contacts to get around the rules. And anyway that's not what a 'points system' is about.

You call bullshit, but your argument is red herrings all the way down. Seriously.

 

[Spymaster]

Why choose to highlight "rapists" rather than "tax evaders" (for example) then?

Again, it’s a matter of degree. Those convicted or suspected of violent crimes, or those who’ve expressed similar tendencies, I want excluded.

You may want others excluded. Personally, I couldn’t care less about people who’ve evaded tax in other countries.

 

[mojo pixy]

More utter bollocks.

Absolute mendacious shit.

Sad that this is all you have left, it could have been so much more fun

 

[maomao]

Yes, maybe this is wrong.

How would we judge this? (Am I just being jet lagged and stupid but how do you compare wealth over generations?)

Standard of living, access to housing, access to healthcare, access to education etc.

 

[MickiQ]

That used to apply to all sorts of professions. I know people who qualified as civil engineers, town planners, librarians, accountants and solicitors by getting decent A-levels and then getting a job with a company/local authority that was happy to fund their training. It took a long time, but they were paid while doing it. It was a great route into a profession for bright kids from working class backgrounds.

I think all those professions are graduate only now.

My brother (62) did an old fashioned apprenticeship starting at 16, He worked 4 days a week and the company paid for him to attend college on the 5th day for 4 years. I know loads of others who did the same but such schemes are rarer than hens teeth these days where they were once very common.

 

[Spymaster]

I might well, but that's not really the point. Our immigration policy isn't primarily designed to exclude rapists and paedophiles, it's primarily designed to exclude poor people. Convicted rapists and child abusers may well be excluded by law, but really only if they haven't enough money or contacts to get around the rules. And anyway that's not what a 'points system' is about.

You call bullshit, but your argument is red herrings all the way down. Seriously.

Who do YOU think should not be allowed into the country?

 

[Edie]

Standard of living, access to housing, access to healthcare, access to education etc.

Yes well by those metrics I guess I’ll have to concede this one

 

[maomao]

I’m agreeing with it and responding to Z, as well as forestalling any suggestion that it should be weakened.

I assume you agree with it too.

I do. And given only about two posters have mentioned completely open borders as any sort of aim and there is absolutely no chance of it ever happening in any urbanite's lifetime, I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as a concern. Other than it is every anti-immigrant loon on the spectrum from the Daily Mail to Tommy Robinson's main line of attack on immigration.

 

[Edie]

My brother (62) did an old fashioned apprenticeship starting at 16, He worked 4 days a week and the company paid for him to attend college on the 5th day for 4 years. I know loads of others who did the same but such schemes are rarer than hens teeth these days where they were once very common.

My eldest lad just finished one and most of his mates did them. His was b2b sales, his friends were everything from mechanics to civil service.

 

[mojo pixy]

Who do YOU think should not be allowed into the country?

I think we should operate a one-in-one-out system, so for every nurse we get, we lose a home-grown useless racist paedo, or a tory (though in some cases this'll be the same person)

I hear the South Sandwich Isles are lovely at this another time of year.