Immigration to the UK - do you have concerns?

[danny la rouge]

All identities are constructed, no? Isn't that the point. Doesn't mean they are meaningless or are not sincerely felt.

Indeed.

 

[Serge Forward]

A lot of UK doctors have turned against the NHS even in the decade plus I’ve been practising. Abusive employer.

Of course it is. That's because it's been aggressively and purposely fucked over and dismantled by consecutive governments for decades.

 

[Spymaster]

This is a fast moving thread with a lot of currents and open lines of investigation, and I’m aware I’m missing some, many, when I reply.

This is one I’d like to pick up on. I may be wrong, but I don’t remember anyone suggesting that “there is no such thing as British culture”. I have seen it suggested by poster A this is what poster B was saying, but in every instance poster A had read poster B incorrectly. (A and B are not particular people, they’re labels to try and avoid a confusing sentence).

I don’t think that by saying culture is heterogenous, overlapping, without uniform structure and composition, and that it doesn’t start and finish at checkpoints, I don’t think that by saying any of that one is saying it doesn’t exist. Just that it’s complicated.

So, I have seen it said (I paraphrase) “oh, here we go, ‘there’s no such thing as British culture’!”, but I haven’t seen it said “there’s no such thing as British culture”.

There is certainly no such thing as a uniform thickness monoculture cut to fit the borders. But that’s a question of establishing what culture is. It isn’t unique to these islands.

As you say, fast moving thread and I haven't got the time to respond properly at the moment, but the "no such thing as British culture" thing I've seen argued on these boards before, rather than on this thread (where it may or may not have been).

 

[MickiQ]

A lot of UK doctors have turned against the NHS even in the decade plus I’ve been practising. Abusive employer.

That's due to shit management not a fault in the basic 'Idea'. I doubt things would be better (and probably worse) if the hospitals were private companies selling their services.

 

[danny la rouge]

I suppose the question I would put to Spymaster is in whose interests is it to promote notions of a shared national culture. IMO it would be those forces and interests that seek to cast as all one people together, a notion that has the effect of deliberately masking class division.

Indeed. And governments, power structures, simple and complex, will always want to use both “This Is What It Means To Be Us” as well and “That Stuff Over There? That’s What We’re Not”, in other words defining in-group and out-group as ways of establishing cohesion. (I’m not saying this only ever happens in a top down way. I’m saying of course hierarchies will make use of it).

 

[danny la rouge]

As you say, fast moving thread and I haven't got the time to respond properly at the moment, but the "no such thing as British culture" thing I've seen argued on these boards before, rather than on this thread (where it may or may not have been).

No such thing as homogenous British culture that stops at checkpoints I’ve seen argued. It’s certainly what I argue.

 

[danny la rouge]

When I talk of British culture, I mean culture which exists in these islands.

 

[Funky_monks]

There you go, Gramsci. A textbook example of the processes involved in banal nationalism.

Wanting to know if I should wear a coat or not?

Jesus christ

 

[Edie]

When I talk of British culture, I mean culture which exists in these islands.

I think everyone does. I’ve lost the reason you’re labouring this point tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

I am a socialist, though I'm not a big fan of the state, including the welfare state, but in the absence if anything more revolutionary on the horizon, I'll take the welfare state over the "devil take the hindmost" system they have in many parts of the US any day. As for the riots being something to do with socialism, that just shows you've encountered some of the more ignorant Americans, of which there are a fair few.

Yes, it's nice if the community sticks together and helps each other out. Id like to see the whole society built in such a way. It's good if you have family to help too but awful if you don't. Relying only on self and family is no way to build a better world.

The riots had nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with the poisonous drip feed of anti foreigner, racist and divide and rule poison that's been fed the UK population for decades, now on turbo with social media.

Not a double post but picking up on some of the comments made on this thread how do posters explain: the apparent contradiction that the capitalist class require immigration to depress wages/substitute for skill development/ introduce supply side reforms, and often promote an ideology based on 'one people together' and support diversity but sections of that same class also drip feed anti-foreigner/racist/divide and rule and blame immigrants for austerity?

 

[JimW]

Alcohol and drug dependency are as bad or worse in the US aren't they, including the red states, so that's really an argument from ignorance willful or otherwise on their part.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think everyone does. I’ve lost the reason you’re labouring this point tbh.

To ensure people don’t say I’m saying things I’m not saying.

Remember when you said you like to stuff ice lollies up puppies’ bums and laugh? I can’t believe anyone could be so cruel.

 

[PTK]

All identities are constructed, no? Isn't that the point. Doesn't mean they are meaningless or are not sincerely felt.

What does it mean to “feel” European?

I suspect that this feeling would be less common if the UK had never been a member of inter-state institutions in Europe.

I am in my 60s, and I noticed over the years that there began to be more coverage of European news on the BBC, which I think was recognition that the UK was part of a larger entity. Our sense of identity is partly shaped by the media.

At the moment, as I type this, I am not sure what I feel that I am.

 

[Edie]

To ensure people don’t say I’m saying things I’m not saying.

Remember when you said you like to stuff ice lollies up puppies’ bums and laugh? I can’t believe anyone could be so cruel.

Dude stop being so fragile! We’re just chewing the fat, tossing some ideas around. There’s no need to bring puppies bums into this- that was years ago

 

[danny la rouge]

What does it mean to “feel” European?

Different things to different people.

 

[The39thStep]

That's due to shit management not a fault in the basic 'Idea'. I doubt things would be better (and probably worse) if the hospitals were private companies selling their services.

Some hospitals do , where do think some of those NHS trained doctors and consultants work ?

 

[Pickman's model]

What does it mean to “feel” European?

I suspect that this feeling would be less common if the UK had never been a member of inter-state institutions in Europe.

I am in my 60s, and I noticed over the years that there began to be more coverage of European news on the BBC, which I think was recognition that the UK was part of a larger entity. Our sense of identity is partly shaped by the media.

At the moment, as I type this, I am not sure what I feel that I am.

The UK has been involved in inter-state institutions in Europe for centuries

 

[PTK]

Wanting to know if I should wear a coat or not?

Jesus christ

Have you ever wondered why the BBC does not tell you if you should wear a coat if you wishe to visit Calais

 

[The39thStep]

What does it mean to “feel” European?

I suspect that this feeling would be less common if the UK had never been a member of inter-state institutions in Europe.

I am in my 60s, and I noticed over the years that there began to be more coverage of European news on the BBC, which I think was recognition that the UK was part of a larger entity. Our sense of identity is partly shaped by the media.

At the moment, as I type this, I am not sure what I feel that I am.

As a person living in Europe I always think the BBC is obsessed with the US to be honest rather than Europe. Unless there's been a flood or some disaster the European section of the BBC is mainly full of the Russian /Ukraine war.

 

[Edie]

I find France as foreign as America tbh. And both less foreign than Ethiopia. That was really bloody different.

Never been to China or a really Islamic country but imagine they are even more culturally distant.

littlebabyjesus interesting that you lived in Cuba. Went there a year or so ago. Probably the worst poverty I’ve seen (which I realise is due to trade embargoes).

Five years ago I’d bearly travelled. It’s been very interesting.

 

[Serge Forward]

Not a double post but picking up on some of the comments made on this thread how do posters explain: the apparent contradiction that the capitalist class require immigration to depress wages/substitute for skill development/ introduce supply side reforms, and often promote an ideology based on 'one people together' and support diversity but sections of that same class also drip feed anti-foreigner/racist/divide and rule and blame immigrants for austerity?

On the one hand, the boss class wants us happy enough to keep the big wheels turning. On the other hand, they want us divided enough so we don't get too uppity and to keep the us from questioning the setup.

 

[PTK]

As a person living in Europe I always think the BBC is obsessed with the US to be honest rather than Europe. Unless there's been a flood or some disaster the European section of the BBC is mainly full of the Russian /Ukraine war.

.

 

[Spymaster]

littlebabyjesus interesting that you lived in Cuba. Went there a year or so ago. Probably the worst poverty I’ve seen (which I realise is due to trade embargoes).

When I was there, people seemed more concerned about having their bollocks wired-up to the national grid for speaking against the regime, than the poverty.

 

[The39thStep]

When I was there, people seemed more concerned about having their bollocks wired-up to the national grid for speaking against the regime, than the poverty.

I take it you didn't chirp up at the time?

 

[bemused]

I'm waiting for the goverment to be honest about immigration rather than distract every conversation to folks in boats. We seem to benefit from it at the moment, but all governments say they hate it - whilst letting more people in. The public isn't generally dumb an honest conversation would be worthwhile.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm waiting for the goverment to be honest about immigration rather than distract every conversation to folks in boats. We seem to benefit from it at the moment, but all governments say they hate it - whilst letting more people in. The public isn't generally dumb an honest conversation would be worthwhile.

You'll be waiting some time for them to be honest about anything

 

[JimW]

I find France as foreign as America tbh. And both less foreign than Ethiopia. That was really bloody different.

Never been to China or a really Islamic country but imagine they are even more culturally distant.

littlebabyjesus interesting that you lived in Cuba. Went there a year or so ago. Probably the worst poverty I’ve seen (which I realise is due to trade embargoes).

Five years ago I’d bearly travelled. It’s been very interesting.

Definitely have more in common with many of my Chinese neighbours than whole swathes of folk back home, and while I never felt it I'm pretty bog standard English bar being brought up Catholic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I find France as foreign as America tbh. And both less foreign than Ethiopia. That was really bloody different.

Never been to China or a really Islamic country but imagine they are even more culturally distant.

littlebabyjesus interesting that you lived in Cuba. Went there a year or so ago. Probably the worst poverty I’ve seen (which I realise is due to trade embargoes).

Five years ago I’d bearly travelled. It’s been very interesting.

I was there in the 90s, but not so much has changed since then. There's obviously lots I could say about Cuba. I've posted about it before. But to stay relevant to this thread, all the Cubans I knew, regardless of their opinions on the regime and even if they were desperate to get out, felt patriotic. To be proud to be Cuban was a pretty universal norm. But that pride is different when it's expressed by a person from somewhere like Cuba, where it's born of a shared hardship as much as anything else.

 

[Edie]

Definitely have more in common with many of my Chinese neighbours than whole swathes of folk back home, and while I never felt it I'm pretty bog standard English bar being brought up Catholic.

Is there a welfare state there Jim? Is healthcare funded by taxation?

Was arguing the other day with The Man (who has three factories over there) and he thought healthcare was provided by companies. I literally said I’d ask you

 

[Edie]

I was there in the 90s, but not so much has changed since then. There's obviously lots I could say about Cuba. I've posted about it before. But to stay relevant to this thread, all the Cubans I knew, regardless of their opinions on the regime and even if they were desperate to get out, felt patriotic. To be proud to be Cuban was a pretty universal norm. But that pride is different when it's expressed by a person from somewhere like Cuba, where it's born of a shared hardship as much as anything else.

Yes I noticed the intense patriotism too. To be provocative it’s really only in the UK among left leaning middle class liberals who have second hand white shame about empire that it’s a dirty word it seems. The rest of the world see it as a virtue.