Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

MC5 said:
A South African immigrant from a family who originated from Eastern Europe, Lithuania raising concerns about Polish immigrants getting employment as plumbers over local people? And what's this about the only choice is becoming a "cowboy plumber"?


Most people i know who come from immigrant stock are firmly against what the orthodox left says about immigration...The reason being that they are much more likely to be in competition for jobs and housing....Most Black and Asian people in the UK are firmly against mass immigration..
 
durruti02 said:
rmp3 .. not a single workshop on immigration .. maybethe biggest social political economic phenomena of the last few years .. why so??

Id love to see a debate on immigration with someone from the SWP...
Hackney Independent should set something up..You would get a lot of publicity and i think most people would support what you had to say...
It would show people that not all lefties have there head in the clouds as well.
 
tbaldwin said:
Most people i know who come from immigrant stock are firmly against what the orthodox left says about immigration...The reason being that they are much more likely to be in competition for jobs and housing....Most Black and Asian people in the UK are firmly against mass immigration..

Recent immigration is the result of of the UK's decision to allow nationals from so-called A8 countries - the east European and Baltic states that joined the EU in May 2004 - access to the UK labour market.

This recruiting of foreign workers, is mainly to fill gaps in sectors and jobs in which people are unavailable or unwilling to work and which cannot be transferred abroad, such as agriculture, catering, cleaning and some building work. In Britain the issue of work permits to employers, enabling them to recruit workers from abroad for specific jobs, has nearly doubled since 1998, and other legal routes to enter Britain to work have been opened.

Immigrants make large contributions both to economic growth and to public finances, since they are mostly young, fit and educated at others’ expense. Most, if they are legally permitted to and sometimes if they are not, are willing to work for long hours and in poor conditions in jobs which do not require their qualifications.

There is one possible economic rationale for immigration controls, which is that their existence makes immigrant workers precarious, and therefore more exploitable.

You, by backing immigration controls, unwittingly support this increased exploitation on workers.

For more on this see:

http://www.noii.org.uk/
 
MC5 said:
Recent immigration is the result of of the UK's decision to allow nationals from so-called A8 countries - the east European and Baltic states that joined the EU in May 2004 - access to the UK labour market.

This recruiting of foreign workers, is mainly to fill gaps in sectors and jobs in which people are unavailable or unwilling to work and which cannot be transferred abroad, such as agriculture, catering, cleaning and some building work. In Britain the issue of work permits to employers, enabling them to recruit workers from abroad for specific jobs, has nearly doubled since 1998, and other legal routes to enter Britain to work have been opened.

Immigrants make large contributions both to economic growth and to public finances, since they are mostly young, fit and educated at others’ expense. Most, if they are legally permitted to and sometimes if they are not, are willing to work for long hours and in poor conditions in jobs which do not require their qualifications.

There is one possible economic rationale for immigration controls, which is that their existence makes immigrant workers precarious, and therefore more exploitable.

You, by backing immigration controls, unwittingly support this increased exploitation on workers.

For more on this see:

http://www.noii.org.uk/


mate you have fallen hook line and sinker for the bosses arguement!

1) there are 3 million unemployed in the UK .. you telling me NONE of these 3 million want any of these jobs??

2) read John Cruddas's thing again .. the point is that the bosses are going for cheaper non UK workers over and above the heads of local workers, deliberately, as part of a neo liberal agenda ( this is dirty scummy capitalism here mate )

3) what sort of society are we when we get 'foreigners' to do our dirty work?? surely as socialists we should be arguing against this!!

4) it has been shown time and again that, in terms of skilled workers, the bosses are using the importation of labour as a way of NOT having to invest in training ..

5) and in terms of unskilled workers that they can pay lower wages and deal with staff who are less likely to join a union as they are temps ..

p.s. i ultimately agree with the ideas of NOII .. but in the form they are in now they are unobtainable and probably counter productive .. we need to start from where we are what we have .. the people who actually live and die here ..
 
MC5 said:
Recent immigration is the result of of the UK's decision to allow nationals from so-called A8 countries - the east European and Baltic states that joined the EU in May 2004 - access to the UK labour market.

This recruiting of foreign workers, is mainly to fill gaps in sectors and jobs in which people are unavailable or unwilling to work and which cannot be transferred abroad, such as agriculture, catering, cleaning and some building work. In Britain the issue of work permits to employers, enabling them to recruit workers from abroad for specific jobs, has nearly doubled since 1998, and other legal routes to enter Britain to work have been opened.

Immigrants make large contributions both to economic growth and to public finances, since they are mostly young, fit and educated at others’ expense. Most, if they are legally permitted to and sometimes if they are not, are willing to work for long hours and in poor conditions in jobs which do not require their qualifications.

There is one possible economic rationale for immigration controls, which is that their existence makes immigrant workers precarious, and therefore more exploitable.

You, by backing immigration controls, unwittingly support this increased exploitation on workers.

For more on this see:

http://www.noii.org.uk/


MC5 do you really not understand that anybody calling themselves as Internationalist has to look at the International consequences of migration?
 
durruti02 said:
MC5 did you look at their TU section .. thepeople who wrote this are NOT TUists mate .. they think that we are strong enough to fight for immigrants adn remove immigration laws!! jesus we are not even strong enough to fight for our own fking pensions!

Not trade unionists? Why? Just because you disagree with them? What they point out is the international consequences of migration (Balders take note).

The well known phrase “workers of the world unite” does not mean “only workers with the correct immigration status” unite. It means all workers both here and internationally. The function of immigration controls is to ensure the absolute reversal of this principal. It is to ensure the global division and antagonism between workers

Furthermore:

...immigration controls are a danger to all trade unionists. – including those workers with full immigration status. One of the functions of immigration control is to undercut the wages and conditions of all workers by transforming migrant labour and labour without any immigration status into a non-unionised low-waged workforce unprotected by labour legislation. Which is why there is a need to fight for the regularisation of immigration status, for full unionisation and for equality of wages and conditions for all.

Times, as they say, change and it's notable that:

In the past the trade union movement has, unfortunately, often been in the forefront of agitating for controls. For instance the very first controls – the 1905 Aliens Act aimed at Jewish refugees – was preceded by the TUC demanding controls. Again in the 1950s and 1960s the TUC supported controls against black commonwealth workers. Today the labour movement has begun to change its position – not least because of the resistance and anti-deportation campaigns of those threatened by controls. Today it is possible to open up the whole debate. Today it is possible to challenge the very existence of controls.

http://www.noii.org.uk/

Yes, anything is possible.

excuse the C&P btw
 
GP in the UK £8,000 a month in Poland £460 a month..
Good bit on Newsnight on how Poland is being damaged by economic migration 25% of anaethitists have left since they joined the EU..

Great news for the Imperialists who back free market migration policies....In the name of workers freedom etc....
 
tbaldwin said:
GP in the UK £8,000 a month in Poland £460 a month..
Good bit on Newsnight on how Poland is being damaged by economic migration 25% of anaethitists have left since they joined the EU..

Great news for the Imperialists who back free market migration policies....In the name of workers freedom etc....



I agree balders, it seems so logical, I don't get why the left (most of it) align with this neo-liberal free market cobblers.
 
When these people who support no borders (and bleat on about it all the time,) put as much effort into fighting against welfare cuts, housing, the nhs, all the other basic issues, then they may get more credit from me and many people in now who are very very frustrated by them.

and yes i know there are a few individuals who do both, but the rest seem obssesives who are giving the left a bad name.
 
exosculate said:
I agree balders, it seems so logical, I don't get why the left (most of it) align with this neo-liberal free market cobblers.
I suspect its because they dont, however right wing liberals like baldy enjoy lying. Sad so many ex-lefites have given up on any point of principal and are just looking after number one. But, that the victory of thatcherism for ya
 
treelover said:
When these people who support no borders (and bleat on about it all the time,) put as much effort into fighting against welfare cuts, housing, the nhs, all the other basic issues, then they may get more credit from me and many people in now who are very very frustrated by them.

and yes i know there are a few individuals who do both, but the rest seem obssesives who are giving the left a bad name.

Credit from you? Are you special? Are the "many other people" special too and do they know you are speaking on their behalf?
 
mc .. they are not trade unionists .. it is obvious by the language .. they are moralists who WANT trade unionists to do what they think is right. I do not diasgree that 'illegally' is a major problem ... but their solution is an impossibility

read it again .. there is not a single sentance or phrase that shows any understanding of power .. and how w/c have had power in years past thru their unions .. and do not now

i agree partially with this

" .. One of the functions of immigration control is to undercut the wages and conditions of all workers by transforming migrant labour and labour without any immigration status into a non-unionised low-waged workforce unprotected by labour legislation..."

.. however you could equally say that sentance without the word 'control' in it and it would still be valid

also it misses the point that with eastern european immigration most immigrants curently ARE LEGAL!!

and how many times ( he says weeping:D ) do i have to say that i support workers control NOT state immigration controls !!!!

and i agree entirely with this .. " ..Which is why there is a need to fight for the regularisation of immigration status, for full unionisation and for equality of wages and conditions for all..."

Nothing i have proposed about local sustainable employment contradicts this..

we need to get power back in the class BEFORE we start making demands .. this is basic socialism .. fight for basics here and now and poeple will support and respect the left .. ( as RESPECT has done in muslim communities;) ) ..
 
belboid said:
I suspect its because they dont, however right wing liberals like baldy enjoy lying. Sad so many ex-lefites have given up on any point of principal and are just looking after number one. But, that the victory of thatcherism for ya
Right wing Liberals?????
Do they believe in a massive redistribution of wealth,Smashing the criminal justice system and hanging a few judges as an example to the others....
Do they believe in abolishing the monarchy,reparations to developing countries..Bringing in the Death penalty for people who torture and murder children,Bringing back National Service.....Do they believe in all that?
 
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1268eu.html

Intersting article on immigration driing down wages ..
from An Phoblacht

..(from an australian maoist???)

"..The European Union’s single internal market is being used to force down wages. Following the accession of eastern European states in May 2004, Ireland, Britain and Sweden allowed unrestricted access to their labour markets. As a result, migrant labour has been rapidly moving west, while east European countries are experiencing population falls and an inevitable brain drain..." etc etc
 
ok it turns out to be from a guy Brian Denny writing for/who is part of UK group, 'Trade Unionists against the EU Constitution' , a group including Bob Crow and the like

so er not aussie maoists:D
 
tbaldwin said:
Right wing Liberals?????
Do they believe in a massive redistribution of wealth,Smashing the criminal justice system and hanging a few judges as an example to the others....
Do they believe in abolishing the monarchy,reparations to developing countries..Bringing in the Death penalty for people who torture and murder children,Bringing back National Service.....Do they believe in all that?


You disagree with the line therefore they brand you right wing.

What a scary thing it is to be a passionate believer in the line at all costs - its the land of Jehovah Witnessism and other cultist belief structures I tell ya.
 
durruti02 said:
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1268eu.html

Intersting article on immigration driing down wages ..
from An Phoblacht

..(from an australian maoist???)

"..The European Union’s single internal market is being used to force down wages. Following the accession of eastern European states in May 2004, Ireland, Britain and Sweden allowed unrestricted access to their labour markets. As a result, migrant labour has been rapidly moving west, while east European countries are experiencing population falls and an inevitable brain drain..." etc etc


Durruti - I fear they cannot hear ya.
 
exosculate said:
You disagree with the line therefore they brand you right wing.

What a scary thing it is to be a passionate believer in the line at all costs - its the land of Jehovah Witnessism and other cultist belief structures I tell ya.
you are so wedded to your cult you cannot even see a parody.:D
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
you are so wedded to your cult you cannot even see a parody.:D


I can't take accusations of cultism seriously from Swappies to be honest mate. They are the Jehovah Witnesses of Trotskyism.
 
durruti02 said:
ok it turns out to be from a guy Brian Denny writing for/who is part of UK group, 'Trade Unionists against the EU Constitution' , a group including Bob Crow and the like

so er not aussie maoists:D
the trade unions need to get up off their knees, fuck the courts, and continue to pursue the policy of equality and unity the courts are possibly going to try and stop. IF this means eventually taking on the court decision against them, so be it. Acting weak now, only encourages the court to come down in favour of Neo-liberalism.

PS. Once again, I do not know any Marxist who is not aware of the effect of supply and demand in a capitalist economy.
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
the trade unions need to get up off their knees, fuck the courts, and continue to pursue the policy of equality and unity the courts are possibly going to try and stop. IF this means eventually taking on the court decision against them, so be it. Acting weak now, only encourages the court to come down in favour of Neo-liberalism.

PS. Once again, I do not know any Marxist who is not aware of the effect of supply and demand in a capitalist economy.


I think this is the equivalent of:

I do not know anyone who thinks a punch in the face is a good thing but nevertheless I wish to align myself with the face punchers and argue for more face punchery.
 
Is it true that foreign workers in the UK including poles who are not registered are not protected by the minimum wage?? Im sure Durrutti will know?
 
exosculate said:
I think this is the equivalent of:

I do not know anyone who thinks a punch in the face is a good thing but nevertheless I wish to align myself with the face punchers and argue for more face punchery.
where as yours is the equivalent of, I know my boxing opponent is punching me, but let's go punch foreign members of the audience and hold them responsible for my bruising.:D

I must say, you do have an alarming ability to raise the level of POLITICAL debate, to an all-time low. I wish I was a sectarian, it would save me having to listen to your complete an utter drivel.:p ;)
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
where as yours is the equivalent of, I know my boxing opponent is punching me, but let's go punch foreign members of the audience and hold them responsible for my bruising.:D

I must say, you do have an alarming ability to raise the level of POLITICAL debate, to an all-time low. I wish I was a sectarian, it would save me having to listen to your complete an utter drivel.:p ;)


Thus spoke the punch drunk cultist.:eek:
 
Thats interesting because the T&G and Dromey are calling/pushing for an amnesty for illegals.

ok it turns out to be from a guy Brian Denny writing for/who is part of UK group, 'Trade Unionists against the EU Constitution' , a group including Bob Crow and the like
 
Back
Top Bottom