Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
ResistanceMP3 said:you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. You started a thread on this topic. You have asked people to explain their different opinions on the topic. I was offering to have an honest and genuine dialogue, asking questions and discussingg the SW position, so you could understand it as I do. I was not offering to convince you with seven straight questions. I don't think you are genuinely interested in the SW position. You have made your mind up, and you are not going to change it. That is okay with me. Go in peace.
RMP 3 i am interested in what the SWP has to say on this and other issues. The SWP are very influential amongst many groups and individuals on the Left. ( Especially amongst people with similar views who see you as the big bad enemy etc)
2 Straight questions from me.
1 Do you think that Economic migration makes the World a more unequal place?
2 Do you think that Socialists should openly campaign against policies that make the world a more unequal place?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
durruti02 said:
I have already answered this. I've said because we have a different strategy to you. Your strategy is to discriminate against migrant workers, in favour of local workers. In another thread you admit your strategy is dangerous, this is one reason we do not choose your strategy. Secondly, our strategy is to build unity between migrant and local workers, emphasising things the way you do I think is a, partially misleading b, divisive, and soul is a barrier to achieving our strategy.durruti02 said:and p.s. you never answered this?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
you already know that I don't think banning immigrants is possible, or conducive to building a more equal society/world.tbaldwin said:
ResistanceMP3 said:
please qoute me properly .. yes the strategy has dangers but the dangers of ignoring the issue are far far far worse .. as we see in yorks and barking
your strategy is a non starter .. as you are being dishonest about why it is neccessary .. people see thru this almost instantly .. you equally can not balme capitalism if you deny what they are doing .. as you have over on the other thread and as knotted as shown that SW does NOT honestly deal with the issue
and the strategy is NOT to discriminate .. you always look at the negative in what workers do!
.. tbh it reminds me of the way certain papers refer to the unions generally .. 
( sorry cheap shot but you are a Trade unionist no?? )it is about POSITIVE action .. it is workers (black white polish whatever) demanding that their kids are employed at proper rates .. not someone from outside the area on less money .. that the state/NHS spends money on training people to work in the NHS rather than saving money ( so the rich pay less tax) by importing workers from the philapines ...
is this really wrong????
ResistanceMP3 said:you already know that I don't think banning immigrants is possible, or conducive to building a more equal society/world.
why why why do you keep referring to bans???????
.. we are talking about POSITIVE here ... that employers must employ local kids on union rates NOT employ poles on a fiver an hour !!
you just can not say this is wrong!
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
durruti02 said:why why why do you keep referring to bans???????
.. we are talking about POSITIVE here ... that employers must employ local kids on union rates NOT employ poles on a fiver an hour !!
you just can not say this is wrong!
tbaldwin said:
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I refer my learned friends to the replies I have already given to these questions, and particularly post 281 in the Cruddas thread.
durruti02 said:
Positive action is needed to defend wages and conditions in this country and improve them in the developing world. I think the thread on Walmart is quite interesting in that respect. But it seems a lot of people think any real change is impossible.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
So you want all carrott and no stick?tbaldwin said:
How do you expect anybody to take that seriously?
ResistanceMP3 said:
i am not tbaldwin .. we agree with much on what is happenning but less on the solutions
please stop being a lawyer
an deal with the isssue! what do you think is better .. straight answer please
that employers must employ local kids on union rates or employ poles on a fiver an hour !!
ResistanceMP3 said:So you want all carrott and no stick?
How do you expect anybody to take that seriously?
you appear to have entirely missed the point that if the attraction for immigrants to come to this country ( cct/bv/privatisation/'tacit support' from the state /corrupt employers/no closed shop/weak unions etc etc) was not here .. immigration would drop dramatically
the stick that you and others obsess on is not neccessary IF the w/c can influnece the labour market /process
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
and that is precisely my argument as to why we don't need either your "softer approach" than Mr Baldwin's, of discriminating in favour of local workers. Do you see what I'm getting at, you will NOT need to discriminate in favour of local workers IF "cct/bv/privatisation/'tacit support' from the state /corrupt employers/no closed shop/weak unions etc etc was not here .. immigration would drop dramatically ". do we agree?durruti02 said:
ResistanceMP3 said:
ok yes .. i agree BUT ( there is always a but!) .. it is part of a process of rebuilding .. as i have regularly said from year zero ..
you will not be ABLE to organise adequately in the w/c IF you are not honest about immigration .. honestly it is a major sticking block for people .. it really is ..
you will not be able to win support from people when your sole public discussion re terms of immigration is to put up posters saying " Refugees welcome here!" ( however right that should be!!! )
Thought people might be interested in this from Frank Field....
Ex-minister's immigration warning
By Brian Wheeler
Political reporter, BBC News
Mr Field urges a proper debate on the issue before the BNP exploits it
UK politicians are "living on borrowed time" on immigration, a former Labour minister has said.
Frank Field questioned whether current record levels of migration into Britain were "sustainable".
And he told the BBC News website the UK was in danger of becoming a "global traffic station" for migrant workers.
He urged politicians on all sides to stop ignoring public concern on the issue before the BNP found a leader with the "talent" to exploit it.
The UK is currently receiving the highest number of immigrants in its history, following a surge in migrant workers from new EU member states.
The government is gambling on the fact because the latest wave of immigration is the same race, that people will not actually notice
UK Independence Party
When the EU expanded to 25 members in 2004 the UK, Ireland and Sweden were the only countries which decided not to restrict people from the new member countries - notably Poland - taking jobs.
At the time the UK government predicted 13,000 workers a year from the new EU member countries would move to the UK for work, but the actual figure of registered workers was about 329,000 in 18 months.
Ministers and the EU say that these migrants have boosted UK economic growth without increasing unemployment.
According to the latest available figures, for 2004, the overall migration picture saw 359,000 people leave the UK while 582,000 settled in the UK. The figures do not include illegal migrants.
'Massive transformation'
Mr Field, a former welfare minister, questioned whether this level of immigration was sustainable without "dramatic" changes to the character of the country and hitting poorer areas, which have to absorb migrants.
"This is the most massive transformation of our population. Do we just merely accept this as another form of globalisation? That it doesn't matter where you are, or that you belong to a country and have roots? That we are all just following the jobs?" Mr Field told the BBC News Website.
The BNP denies leader Nick Griffin is "inept"
People who questioned mass immigration were often accused of "playing the race card" but, Mr Field argued, this was "just another way of closing down debate".
The Birkenhead MP added: "There will be economic gains [from immigration] but I am just raising whether any country can sustain the rate of immigration we are now suffering.
"If we are not careful, we will be transformed into a global traffic station and that is not what most people mean by being part of a country."
He added: "It is only because the BNP are so inept that the debate has not taken off."
He said mainstream politicians had to address immigration "before the BNP stumbles on somebody with talent".
"We are living on borrowed time. We can not continue on the assumption that the BNP will present leaders which turn off most voters, even if what they are saying is important," he said.
Tony Blair promised a debate on immigration after last year's general election but so far this had not materialised, added Mr Field.
'Profound changes'
And, he said, the Conservatives had stopped talking about the issue because they were trying to improve their image and "show they were up not up to their old tricks, whether the electorate want them to or not".
The Conservatives were asked to comment on Mr Field's remarks but have so far failed to respond.
FRANK FIELD
Former director of Low Pay Unit and chairman of Commons social security select committee
Appointed minister for welfare reform in 1997 in Tony Blair's first Cabinet, with brief to "think the unthinkable"
Resigned after reported rows with Gordon Brown and Harriet Harman
Leading backbench commentator on pensions and welfare issues
Mr Field told BBC Radio 4's The World at One it was not just a question of race.
"I think you can make a case that there are many more Africans that buy into the British way of life than people from Eastern Europe," he said.
Economic benefits
Immigration Minister Liam Byrne denied Labour was ducking the immigration issue.
"The question of how we are continuing to build a fair asylum and immigration system that benefits Britain is one of the topics for discussion at this weekend's national policy forum, where I look forward to engaging with party members and hearing their views," said Mr Byrne.
The Liberal Democrats argue Eastern European migration benefits the British economy.
The party has backed the opening of the UK's borders to migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria, when they join the EU, provided the impact of such a move is properly monitored.
Speaking earlier this year, home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg said: "The sensible approach to the labour market question is to allow these new EU citizens to work in the UK, but monitor the impact on the domestic economy and apply restrictions where necessary."
BNP spokesman Phil Edwards said the party had been calling for a debate on immigration "for many years" but its views were always misrepresented by the media.
He denied the BNP's leader Nick Griffin was "inept", adding he was "every bit as good as any mainstream politician".
On Mr Field's comments, he said: "He sounds as though he is ready to join the BNP, not that we would have him."
Points system
The BNP wants a halt to all immigration and a programme of "voluntary repatriation".
The UK Independence Party said it backed the government's new quota system for migrant workers but argued it should apply equally to all - including people inside the EU.
We have for too long ducked a serious debate on the scale of immigration
Sir Andrew Green, Migration Watch
"We would apply the points system to all immigrants, regardless of their colour," he told the BBC News Website.
Its spokesman said he believed there would have been more of public outcry about immigration in the UK if the latest wave of migrants had been from Africa or Asia.
"The government is gambling on the fact because the latest wave of immigration is the same race, that people will not actually notice," he said.
UKIP favours net zero immigration, with the same number of people entering the UK each year as entering leaving it.
Serious debate
Sir Andrew Green, of pressure group Migration Watch, said: "This rate of migration cannot be maintained without the most profound changes occurring in our society, and particularly, given where we know migrants first live, in our poorest areas
"We have for too long ducked a serious debate on the scale of immigration. The government have done their best to bury the numbers and the Conservatives seem to have lost their nerve."
He said Mr Field was "astonishingly brave" raising the issue in the way that he had.
On Tuesday, the Local Government Association accused the government of underestimating the true number of immigrants in the UK, leading to under-funding and a burden on services.
Cheryl Coppell, chief executive of Slough Borough Council said migration statistics for the area were "woefully inadequate".
'Inadequate' statistics
Over the past 18 months, some 9,000 new National Insurance numbers have been issued in Slough - which is west of London - of which 150 went to British nationals.
In contrast, the Office for National Statistics recorded 300 international migrants settling in the town in 2004.
However, government statistics - on which the allocation of central funding is calculated - show the borough's population falling.
This, says the council, will cost it £15m between now and the next census in 2011.
Ms Coppell also said the influx of newcomers from Poland and other eastern European countries was threatening the social cohesion of the town, which already has 37% ethnic minority residents.
She said the new arrivals were hitting the employment prospects of the existing population and created overcrowding, with as many as 15 people living in one house.
LGA chairman Sir Sandy Bruce-Lockhart said the situation was similar in many parts of the country.
Local government minister Phil Woollas said there was no evidence Slough's population had been underestimated and there was no case for additional grants.
Ex-minister's immigration warning
By Brian Wheeler
Political reporter, BBC News
Mr Field urges a proper debate on the issue before the BNP exploits it
UK politicians are "living on borrowed time" on immigration, a former Labour minister has said.
Frank Field questioned whether current record levels of migration into Britain were "sustainable".
And he told the BBC News website the UK was in danger of becoming a "global traffic station" for migrant workers.
He urged politicians on all sides to stop ignoring public concern on the issue before the BNP found a leader with the "talent" to exploit it.
The UK is currently receiving the highest number of immigrants in its history, following a surge in migrant workers from new EU member states.
The government is gambling on the fact because the latest wave of immigration is the same race, that people will not actually notice
UK Independence Party
When the EU expanded to 25 members in 2004 the UK, Ireland and Sweden were the only countries which decided not to restrict people from the new member countries - notably Poland - taking jobs.
At the time the UK government predicted 13,000 workers a year from the new EU member countries would move to the UK for work, but the actual figure of registered workers was about 329,000 in 18 months.
Ministers and the EU say that these migrants have boosted UK economic growth without increasing unemployment.
According to the latest available figures, for 2004, the overall migration picture saw 359,000 people leave the UK while 582,000 settled in the UK. The figures do not include illegal migrants.
'Massive transformation'
Mr Field, a former welfare minister, questioned whether this level of immigration was sustainable without "dramatic" changes to the character of the country and hitting poorer areas, which have to absorb migrants.
"This is the most massive transformation of our population. Do we just merely accept this as another form of globalisation? That it doesn't matter where you are, or that you belong to a country and have roots? That we are all just following the jobs?" Mr Field told the BBC News Website.
The BNP denies leader Nick Griffin is "inept"
People who questioned mass immigration were often accused of "playing the race card" but, Mr Field argued, this was "just another way of closing down debate".
The Birkenhead MP added: "There will be economic gains [from immigration] but I am just raising whether any country can sustain the rate of immigration we are now suffering.
"If we are not careful, we will be transformed into a global traffic station and that is not what most people mean by being part of a country."
He added: "It is only because the BNP are so inept that the debate has not taken off."
He said mainstream politicians had to address immigration "before the BNP stumbles on somebody with talent".
"We are living on borrowed time. We can not continue on the assumption that the BNP will present leaders which turn off most voters, even if what they are saying is important," he said.
Tony Blair promised a debate on immigration after last year's general election but so far this had not materialised, added Mr Field.
'Profound changes'
And, he said, the Conservatives had stopped talking about the issue because they were trying to improve their image and "show they were up not up to their old tricks, whether the electorate want them to or not".
The Conservatives were asked to comment on Mr Field's remarks but have so far failed to respond.
FRANK FIELD
Former director of Low Pay Unit and chairman of Commons social security select committee
Appointed minister for welfare reform in 1997 in Tony Blair's first Cabinet, with brief to "think the unthinkable"
Resigned after reported rows with Gordon Brown and Harriet Harman
Leading backbench commentator on pensions and welfare issues
Mr Field told BBC Radio 4's The World at One it was not just a question of race.
"I think you can make a case that there are many more Africans that buy into the British way of life than people from Eastern Europe," he said.
Economic benefits
Immigration Minister Liam Byrne denied Labour was ducking the immigration issue.
"The question of how we are continuing to build a fair asylum and immigration system that benefits Britain is one of the topics for discussion at this weekend's national policy forum, where I look forward to engaging with party members and hearing their views," said Mr Byrne.
The Liberal Democrats argue Eastern European migration benefits the British economy.
The party has backed the opening of the UK's borders to migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria, when they join the EU, provided the impact of such a move is properly monitored.
Speaking earlier this year, home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg said: "The sensible approach to the labour market question is to allow these new EU citizens to work in the UK, but monitor the impact on the domestic economy and apply restrictions where necessary."
BNP spokesman Phil Edwards said the party had been calling for a debate on immigration "for many years" but its views were always misrepresented by the media.
He denied the BNP's leader Nick Griffin was "inept", adding he was "every bit as good as any mainstream politician".
On Mr Field's comments, he said: "He sounds as though he is ready to join the BNP, not that we would have him."
Points system
The BNP wants a halt to all immigration and a programme of "voluntary repatriation".
The UK Independence Party said it backed the government's new quota system for migrant workers but argued it should apply equally to all - including people inside the EU.
We have for too long ducked a serious debate on the scale of immigration
Sir Andrew Green, Migration Watch
"We would apply the points system to all immigrants, regardless of their colour," he told the BBC News Website.
Its spokesman said he believed there would have been more of public outcry about immigration in the UK if the latest wave of migrants had been from Africa or Asia.
"The government is gambling on the fact because the latest wave of immigration is the same race, that people will not actually notice," he said.
UKIP favours net zero immigration, with the same number of people entering the UK each year as entering leaving it.
Serious debate
Sir Andrew Green, of pressure group Migration Watch, said: "This rate of migration cannot be maintained without the most profound changes occurring in our society, and particularly, given where we know migrants first live, in our poorest areas
"We have for too long ducked a serious debate on the scale of immigration. The government have done their best to bury the numbers and the Conservatives seem to have lost their nerve."
He said Mr Field was "astonishingly brave" raising the issue in the way that he had.
On Tuesday, the Local Government Association accused the government of underestimating the true number of immigrants in the UK, leading to under-funding and a burden on services.
Cheryl Coppell, chief executive of Slough Borough Council said migration statistics for the area were "woefully inadequate".
'Inadequate' statistics
Over the past 18 months, some 9,000 new National Insurance numbers have been issued in Slough - which is west of London - of which 150 went to British nationals.
In contrast, the Office for National Statistics recorded 300 international migrants settling in the town in 2004.
However, government statistics - on which the allocation of central funding is calculated - show the borough's population falling.
This, says the council, will cost it £15m between now and the next census in 2011.
Ms Coppell also said the influx of newcomers from Poland and other eastern European countries was threatening the social cohesion of the town, which already has 37% ethnic minority residents.
She said the new arrivals were hitting the employment prospects of the existing population and created overcrowding, with as many as 15 people living in one house.
LGA chairman Sir Sandy Bruce-Lockhart said the situation was similar in many parts of the country.
Local government minister Phil Woollas said there was no evidence Slough's population had been underestimated and there was no case for additional grants.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
durruti02 said:
Exactly
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
okay yes I agree. I agree with that, because of the bit you have put in brackets, and also because you are right, "Refugees Welcome Here" SHOULD NOT be the sole public discussion regarding the terms of immigration
<<<<<<<<this is the part to concentrate on. The 90% we agree upon, and we should be prepared to work with each other upon.durruti02 said:
I agree part of the building process is to be fully honest, EVEN ABOUT when you think people are wrong. You agree with me, that the bosses want immigrants coming to this country because they can make money out of them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4474997.stm
. You agree with me about immigrant taxes and benefits. "In the UK, Home Office research suggests that immigrants pay £2.5bn more in taxes than they take in benefits." we should be honest about these things as well.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
I have been told the full policy is actually "voluntary repatriation" until the policy has run its course, and then the rest will be decided upon. Or something like that. Is that true?tbaldwin said:
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
tbaldwin said:
Come on now Baldwin - you don't agree with the trots purist nonsense - you must therefore de facto have an in depth knowledge of BNP policy.
exosculate said:Come on now Baldwin - you don't agree with the trots purist nonsense - you must therefore de facto have an in depth knowledge of BNP policy.
Yeah sorry i forgot that...Your either for us or against us leftie stuff...Of course anyone who doesnt agree with open borders must be some kind of a fellow traveller of the BNP..Strange how the BNP consistently get so few votes though...Mind you compared to RESPECT....
Divisive Cotton
Now I just have my toy soldiers
We had the email below sent to Hackney Independent, and which I thought hits the spot in many ways. He sent this to his local MP and also sent a copy to Hackney Independent:
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
Oh FUCK OFF!exosculate said:Come on now Baldwin - you don't agree with the trots purist nonsense - you must therefore de facto have an in depth knowledge of BNP policy.
I am asking that question to sw members too, cos I want a source/verify, that's a true statement from the bnp. I read it on the other searchlight website, but they didn't give a link/source.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
ResistanceMP3 said:Oh FUCK OFF!
Now now - swearing is to lose credibility.
exosculate
a stagger with a beat
MC5 said:
Its about the complexity of things. To get beyond......
native with reservations about immigration bad
immigrant good
In true Animal Farm stylee.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
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