Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[Hanoipete]

I dont think its lost on them at all. I think its lost on the right and the centre.

You can point out the strain that immigration puts on the resources of the poorest, because it does, but you cant talk about immigration in isolation from foreign policy, neo-liberalism, tax avoidance by the top 2%, the looting of poor coutries resources etc etc.

Its just a trap, for a start stop calling it `immigration` it is people movement. Terms like `economic migrants` are created by the right.

So i'd change the title of the thread for a start...

And like i say, i'll let people off the hook once or twice, but it doesnt excuse the adoption of racist/fascist ideology just as 1930s British economic hardship did not excuse Mr Mosely etc. In the end, if they persist, people who react in anti-social ways, like voting BNP, should be made to pay. It's why i support any kind of immigrant, qualified or not, because im not going to judge them for leaving misery/lack of opportunities/general ruts and wanting a better more comfortable life. Ditto to English people leaving the UK living elsewhere, like pensioners in Spain.

 

[durruti02]

yeah of course it has. and what?

you gonna stop someone from chad coming here to escape a life expectancy of 42 to placate some cunts who vote bnp in barking?

there is theory and there is now.

you will never stop mass immigration in its present form until you make the countries worth staying in.

so the foreign policy aspect is the first part, not the last. the rest is just falling into a trap laid by the right, endlessly discussing immigration and foreigners and terrorists.

as for `socialist`, who gives a fuck about labels? socialist smoshalist. thats for students.

oh my word!! yes BUT!! ..

how do we stop the shit, how do we help the people in chad or wherever if we do not try to take control of our lives?

we can not change foriegn policy in any way at all if we as class have no power .. we need to rebuild w/c power .. this is why this thread was created

 

[durruti02]

I dont think its lost on them at all. I think its lost on the right and the centre.

You can point out the strain that immigration puts on the resources of the poorest, because it does, but you cant talk about immigration in isolation from foreign policy, neo-liberalism, tax avoidance by the top 2%, the looting of poor coutries resources etc etc.

Its just a trap, for a start stop calling it `immigration` it is people movement. Terms like `economic migrants` are created by the right.

So i'd change the title of the thread for a start...

And like i say, i'll let people off the hook once or twice, but it doesnt excuse the adoption of racist/fascist ideology just as 1930s British economic hardship did not excuse Mr Mosely etc. In the end, if they persist, people who react in anti-social ways, like voting BNP, should be made to pay. It's why i support any kind of immigrant, qualified or not, because im not going to judge them for leaving misery/lack of opportunities/general ruts and wanting a better more comfortable life. Ditto to English people leaving the UK living elsewhere, like pensioners in Spain.

mr pete .. you misunderstand this thread .. i notice you are newish to urban and with the thread so long i hesitate to demand you read it all! ( e.g. you suggest i or others are judging immigrants .. no .. in no way at all .. the point of this thread is to look at why has there been a massive increase in immigration .. to ask what are the political and economic factors behind it .. and to, as always .. look at what the other side are doing , and to learn from their tactics ... ok??

BUT

i am anti imperialist ( well not technically but for the point of the arguement .. actually as i see it, capitalism is globalised and the issue of imperialism is not like it was classically )

i would probably agree with everything you would say as regards foreign policy

but as dear Marx said .. the point is to change it ..

and how?? it seems to me only from below

as regards w/c organisation we are at our lowest ebb for years .. thatcherism and neo liberalism are key to this .. anti union .. individualisation etc etc

and what is wierd is that the left says loads about certain aspects of our relationship with those who own and control us .. i.e. we should fight for better wages and conditions .. BUT they say nothing about control as regards where we live who lets our flats .. ( why should tenants not decide on housing allocation??????) .. or who works is recruited in a workplace

so my point is ( as john cruddas backs up ) that immigration has been key to the neo liberal assault on w/c power/organisation .. and the left has been hamstrung to say anything as they think it is racist to do so !! lunacy

 

[Hanoipete]

i dont think its a `key` no. its just useful sometimes, and sometimes not. depends on political circumstance. immigration happens in very poor countries too. lots of it.

the key is the free market experiment, itself.

it has been a disaster for the poorest people and nations.

add in things like arms sales from rich to poor (eg africa), support for corruption (eg Nigeria, Afghanistan)

so they flee. coupled with a massive underspend on resources for those most affected - in the uk - the poorest and bingo.

to say we need a whole political system is fine, but why link it to immigration? the obsession with discussing this subject goes on enough in the right wing media its not really needed specifically i dont think...it opens the door for every racist to sound plausible. its a cover for them.

As for the left being at a low ebb, i dunno, i think they have started to recover from the early 90's, Green Party, Respect etc whatever you may think of them...but a long long way to go...

 

[ninjacat]

It is part of state capitalist practice in general- the model for it is either "state-sponsored" as in the case of Turkish gastarbeiter immigration to Germany-
or "capitalist sector led" as in Britain now with its work permits demanded by certain sectors' bosses rubber-stamped by Whitehall (at the same time resources to tackle bosses with migrants working illegally for them (in certain sectors) do not compare with resources thrown at drug law enforcement)

There's not much that communists/anarcho-communists can do about "national immigration" as such- they are too small- so they should stop calling for open borders and call for desicions about immigration to be taken by the working-class on a local basis.
Both equally unlikely but at least the latter makes some sense rather than the former which is a case of "leave it all to the (skewed) market).

But in the meantime you are happy to accept cheap products from abroad if they are produced by exploited labour? Think about what you are saying. Unless you unite with labour movements abroad that are fighting this exploitation then don't be surprised when you are thrown on the heap of exploitable labour or exposed to the same mechanisms that produce that cheap labour.

We are living through globalized exploitation. If capital can move freely then so should labour. The problem is not just about labour being global but that capital is global. They go hand in hand. Thatcher said "get on your bike," when she was destroying the economy. Unfortunately she is not here to face the music and see immigrant workers taking her advice.

The profit motive needs an hungry workforce.

Yet those trapped by the system in the west, ie. workers with mortgages, families, commitments, cannot compete, they can't up and go to more lucrative regions and so they take hits to their standard of living while corporations continue to make a profit in the "race to the bottom," by taking production to places where workers are not protected by the law and where they are hungrier and more desperate.

People will continue to come here and work, because business likes them. You can pay foreign labour sub-human wages. Why employ a British worker who has to maintain a home and pay a mortgage and debts when you can exploit someone who is illegal and will accept less?

Thinking nationalism here is futile. Workers have no state until they buy into the system and acquire debt. It's follow the money. Capitalists have no nationality but if they need to preserve the status quo they will much prefer division and hatred. That's where we are at. Blair whiips up hatred towards all blacks while these people are working in the shittiest jobs, living in the shittiest accommodation and so forth. How disgusting is it that he would whip up racial hatred to avoid defeat in elections and act to whip up BNP sentiments - its either the BNP or labour - thus opening this debate.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Until Western Countries stop poaching skilled workers, poor countries are fucked.
Try living in Kenya when we have taken all their skilled workers.
Some people believe in the trickle down economic benefits of Economic migration...They are normally those who do best out of it.
Not those Left behind.
The logical finish to Economic Migration is that everyone moves...That can move..... And sod the rest..... Survival of the fittest....

once again, I absolutely agree with you, and I do not know anybody on the left who does not agree with this side of the argument. But what flows from the argument for me, is that the citizens of this country should be dictating to their ruling class to stop arming, funding, and supporting dictatorships and neoliberal regimes in " Third World countries", and start supporting types of regimes that would make those countries a more attractive place to live. Whether they are an economic migrant, or someone who stays in that country, they are both victims of neo-liberalism, and neither should be punished.
ResistanceMP3

 

[Hanoipete]

exactly, you can't discuss people movements without putting in context of a free market experiment that has failed, failed completely. once you nationalise it every little racist twat comes through the gap one has opened...

 

[durruti02]

..messed up see below ..

 

[durruti02]

i dont think its a `key` no. its just useful sometimes, and sometimes not. depends on political circumstance. immigration happens in very poor countries too. lots of it.

but i live in london now and i am discussing the dynamics of now .. cos for the sake of me and my family and friends etc etc i want to help to rebuild w/c power

the key is the free market experiment, itself.

semantics mate .. i am saying immigration has been key at this latest juncture .. yes of course the free market is at the basis of it .. please look at the title of the thread .. capitalism thru it latest variants .. Thatcherism or neo liberalism or The North American Model .. is the controller .. and p.s. if it is an experiment can someone turn it off now??

it has been a disaster for the poorest people and nations.

yes most of us now agree ( due to the unceasing efforts of the mighty tbaldwin! )

add in things like arms sales from rich to poor (eg africa), support for corruption (eg Nigeria, Afghanistan)

and thats just for starters!! .. as i said before the point is that immigration is the one factor left off of the lefts list of ills

so they flee. coupled with a massive underspend on resources for those most affected - in the uk - the poorest and bingo.

to say we need a whole political system is fine, but why link it to immigration? the obsession with discussing this subject goes on enough in the right wing media its not really needed specifically i dont think...it opens the door for every racist to sound plausible. its a cover for them.

but the left pretend it is not an issue ..we need to talk about issues that directly effect w/c people like council house sales .. like getting rid of the 'closed shop' .. like getting rid of 'sons and daughters' .. if we don't we leave these subjects for the right .. and my how well they are running with them!

As for the left being at a low ebb, i dunno, i think they have started to recover from the early 90's, Green Party, Respect etc whatever you may think of them...but a long long way to go...

mate i do not know who old you are but from where i stand ( early 4ts) they appear pathetically weak compared to in my life time and from possibly 200 years before . .. maybe they have recovered slighty lately .. but from an all time low ..

look areas like barking and dagenham should be solid left .. not BNP ( indeed as tebbit has argued the BNP are prospering, as he alleges, as they are a Left wing party and that is why they are getting w/c support .. jesus wept )

 

[durruti02]

But in the meantime you are happy to accept cheap products from abroad if they are produced by exploited labour? Think about what you are saying. Unless you unite with labour movements abroad that are fighting this exploitation then don't be surprised when you are thrown on the heap of exploitable labour or exposed to the same mechanisms that produce that cheap labour.

We are living through globalized exploitation. If capital can move freely then so should labour. The problem is not just about labour being global but that capital is global. They go hand in hand. Thatcher said "get on your bike," when she was destroying the economy. Unfortunately she is not here to face the music and see immigrant workers taking her advice.

The profit motive needs an hungry workforce.

Yet those trapped by the system in the west, ie. workers with mortgages, families, commitments, cannot compete, they can't up and go to more lucrative regions and so they take hits to their standard of living while corporations continue to make a profit in the "race to the bottom," by taking production to places where workers are not protected by the law and where they are hungrier and more desperate.

People will continue to come here and work, because business likes them. You can pay foreign labour sub-human wages. Why employ a British worker who has to maintain a home and pay a mortgage and debts when you can exploit someone who is illegal and will accept less?

Thinking nationalism here is futile. Workers have no state until they buy into the system and acquire debt. It's follow the money. Capitalists have no nationality but if they need to preserve the status quo they will much prefer division and hatred. That's where we are at. Blair whiips up hatred towards all blacks while these people are working in the shittiest jobs, living in the shittiest accommodation and so forth. How disgusting is it that he would whip up racial hatred to avoid defeat in elections and act to whip up BNP sentiments - its either the BNP or labour - thus opening this debate.

whats the point in talking about uniting with labour movemnets abroad when the unions here are fucked ... and the left is too fked up to come out and say .. as John Cruddas has .. what is actually going on .. ???

 

[durruti02]

once again, I absolutely agree with you, and I do not know anybody on the left who does not agree with this side of the argument. But what flows from the argument for me, is that the citizens of this country should be dictating to their ruling class to stop arming, funding, and supporting dictatorships and neoliberal regimes in " Third World countries", and start supporting types of regimes that would make those countries a more attractive place to live. Whether they are an economic migrant, or someone who stays in that country, they are both victims of neo-liberalism, and neither should be punished.
ResistanceMP3

but again RMP3 how do we do challenge the govt???!!

we need to have ( to build) a strong labour/w/c movement to challenge these things .. but we can't do that when, as John Cruddas has pointed out , the Labour Govt , with NO opposition from the left , is using immigrant labour to fck over the w/c and its organisations????

and to talk of 'punishing people' please .. we can not help people if we do not have the power to do so ..

we need to talk immediately directly to people and admit we as a left have fkd up .. that for good reasons .. anti racism .. we took our eye off the ball

 

[treelover]

what do people think of this, is it a good thing or not and is it sustainable?


1 million new British citizens under Blair
By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor
(Filed: 24/05/2006)

British citizenship has been granted to nearly one million foreign nationals since Labour came to power in 1997, official figures showed yesterday.

A record 161,000 obtained a UK passport last year, a 15 per cent increase on 2004, and a further 214,000 lodged applications that are now being processed. Similar numbers are likely to have applied this year, on top of 750,000 new citizens already created in the previous eight years.
Immigration graphic

About half the new citizens in 2005 were people who qualified through being resident in the country for five years or more and around 20 per cent became British through marriage. The remainder were mainly dependant children.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/24/nreid124.xml

 

[TremulousTetra]

but again RMP3 how do we do challenge the govt???!!

we need to have ( to build) a strong labour/w/c movement to challenge these things .. but we can't do that when, as John Cruddas has pointed out , the Labour Govt , with NO opposition from the left , is using immigrant labour to fck over the w/c and its organisations????

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying we cannot build a strong Labour working-class movement to challenge the government whenever there is immigration?

I don't think new Labour are ideologically driven, they are just bean counters for the capitalist system. Faith schools have the best results, more faith schools. Ex number of jobs unfilled, more workers.

and to talk of 'punishing people' please .. we can not help people if we do not have the power to do so ..

I didn't suggest YOU were.
It were, the Tories, and the fascists are doing that, and socialists should oppose it in my opinion.

we need to talk immediately directly to people and admit we as a left have fkd up .. that for good reasons .. anti racism .. we took our eye off the ball

I think you overestimate the influence of the left on the labour movement, sadly.

 

[Hanoipete]

you just want to talk about immigration in isolation. its a non-starter. will never work. if you want to talk about it in isolation you'll be talking about it the rest of your life.

and i think the left are way ahead of where they were years back. the unions had their day, the labour movement wasnt left wing...

i dont think immigration is that important. sorry. i think the economic system is, immigration is a subset.

rich countreis - normally - have much smaller amounts of people movement than the poorest though. the uk has it easy. its a probelm because of economics, moving resources away from the poor. this countyr can easily absorb new poeple if it chose to, economically.

 

[durruti02]

you just want to talk about immigration in isolation. its a non-starter. will never work. if you want to talk about it in isolation you'll be talking about it the rest of your life.

whotf is talking about immigration in isolation??? no one on here .. BUT it is the one area of social /economic and political life that the Left isolate and pretend it is not an issue .. ofcourse it is a subset!!! but itisone the left ignores ..

and i think the left are way ahead of where they were years back. the unions had their day, the labour movement wasnt left wing...

oh come on !! so why do we have no power then?? why is the bnp getting massive votes in w/c areas where the left are non existant?? you need to justify your arguement there mate


i dont think immigration is that important. sorry. i think the economic system is, immigration is a subset.

rich countreis - normally - have much smaller amounts of people movement than the poorest though. the uk has it easy. its a probelm because of economics, moving resources away from the poor. this countyr can easily absorb new poeple if it chose to, economically.

......

 

[durruti02]

I don't understand your argument. Are you saying we cannot build a strong Labour working-class movement to challenge the government whenever there is immigration?

you will not build a strong union movement if the state can constantly under cut the unions by using imported cheap labour.. the unions to rebuild need to take a principled stand on issues like the closed shop ..


I don't think new Labour are ideologically driven, they are just bean counters for the capitalist system. Faith schools have the best results, more faith schools. Ex number of jobs unfilled, more workers.

I didn't suggest YOU were.
It were, the Tories, and the fascists are doing that, and socialists should oppose it in my opinion.

I think you overestimate the influence of the left on the labour movement, sadly.


the left have no influence as the are not interested in jo/sephine bloggs and what s/he think

.....

 

[tbaldwin]

i dont think immigration is that important. sorry. i think the economic system is, immigration is a subset.

.

Migration is a massive issue. The Free Movement of Capital and Labour causes untold misery and starvation.
Sadly some people who are well meaning (usually) have accepted Liberal free market policies on migration and its important that their views are challenged head on.

 

[Hanoipete]

Not at all, its people like you who may or may not be well meaning who talk about people movement in isolation who do the most damage. Its part of a right wing extremist strategy to get people to talk about it in isolation, it makes immigrants sound unreasonable and greedy.

You can go on talking about poeple movement on its own for the rest of your life, unfortunately for you its 1.Too late and 2. talking about it in isolation creates a bigger problem.

Also why is migration a problem for w/c white folk? Thats not their sole problem, their sole probelm is the eocnomic system not migration, to try and portray migration as the w/c's `probelm` sounds pretty dubious to me. And Ive noted how much you seem to be obsessed with this subject on these boards, constantly on about `immigration` and muslims...hmmm.

Foreigners are here to stay, thats it, end of story, get on with it or move to Spain. Personally I think its great, doesnt bother me I can look after myself and so I admire immigrants who have grafted harder than any moaning loser in Barking ever has done. BNP voters, as ive said, should be given a chance to back down and if they dont they should be publicly hung next to their leaders.

 

[treelover]

oh dear, the 'racism radar' is pinging again!

And Ive noted how much you seem to be obsessed with this subject on these boards, constantly on about `immigration` and muslims...hmmm.

 

[Hanoipete]

its just an observation. am i wrong?
i thought these boards had sensible debate, not exucuses to froth over `immigrants`.
for me this subject obsesses so many people because the media and politicians have trumpeted how serious it is over and over again. so they repeat the establishment agenda without being able to think for themsleves.
immigrants are fine, resources are the probelm and the lack of resources comes from the economic system...so talking about immigration in isolation is essentially reactionary and rightist/statist.

hence it is also -- to talk about immigration in isolation -- pandering to an establishment right wing agenda, not `being brave and speaking out...blah blah political correcteness etc etc...` that is just more cliches picked up from the establishment and repeated...

 

[durruti02]

oh dear, the 'racism radar' is pinging again!

it's embarressing isn't it .. you do everything else on the left agenda .. demonstrate at campsfield/fight the poll tax / be a shop steward for almost 20 years .. working often with recent immigrants/ be in AFA ,CND and ANL ( in the 7ts )/ have your best mate be black( though no that is not how i think of him as just a colour etc etc etc

AND THEN YOU TRY TO TALK ABOUT THE ONE THING THE LEFT DOES NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT ..BUT EVERYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY DOES .. AND INEVITABLY YOU GET CALLED A RACIST

 

[durruti02]

Not at all, its people like you who may or may not be well meaning who talk about people movement in isolation who do the most damage. Its part of a right wing extremist strategy to get people to talk about it in isolation, it makes immigrants sound unreasonable and greedy.

how many times do i have to repeat this .. it is not me who is isolating immigration .. it is the left .. i am saying we need to see it NOT in isolation from neo liberalism .. it is the left who deny the machine of immigration is noe liberalism .. which is VERY odd for so called marxists!

You can go on talking about poeple movement on its own for the rest of your life, unfortunately for you its 1.Too late and 2. talking about it in isolation creates a bigger problem.

see above

Also why is migration a problem for w/c white folk? Thats not their sole problem, their sole probelm is the eocnomic system not migration, to try and portray migration as the w/c's `probelm` sounds pretty dubious to me. And Ive noted how much you seem to be obsessed with this subject on these boards, constantly on about `immigration` and muslims...hmmm.

doh doh doh ..sorry to be insulting now but read the THREAD please .. the whole point of the thread is to try to get you myopic blinkered liberals to see that immigration is not some charitable system but a SYSTEM OF EXPLOITATION AND REPRESSION ... and stop being fking racist ... there are now more white immigrants here as part of MP John Cruddas' "north American Model"

Foreigners are here to stay, thats it, end of story, get on with it or move to Spain. Personally I think its great, doesnt bother me I can look after myself and so I admire immigrants who have grafted harder than any moaning loser in Barking ever has done. BNP voters, as ive said, should be given a chance to back down and if they dont they should be publicly hung next to their leaders.

.

...fuck me .. you really do not get the point .. i have no problem with foreigners no one on here has ... my problem is with capitalism ( and tbh socialists and their feeble attempts to do anything) .. and as a real socialist i wich to analyise capitalism and it's processes and see where we as a class ( which i am not convinced you are part of .. i note your anti w/c comment above) can confront capitalism

.. as you may be aware the w/c is pretty fkg weak at the moment .. i want to change that .. you and the rest of the left ( and me and my mates too unfortunately) will get washed away in a reaction in this country for your failure to actually ANALYISE what is going on

......

 

[durruti02]

its just an observation. am i wrong?

er yes wildly wrong

i thought these boards had sensible debate, not exucuses to froth over `immigrants`.

oh my word .. READ THE THREAD

for me this subject obsesses so many people because the media and politicians have trumpeted how serious it is over and over again. so they repeat the establishment agenda without being able to think for themsleves.
immigrants are fine, resources are the probelm and the lack of resources comes from the economic system...so talking about immigration in isolation is essentially reactionary and rightist/statist.

this thread is about trying to look at immigration from a w/c point of view AS SHOULD ALL PARTS OF CAPITALISM .. NOT IN ISOLATION .. BUT TO REINCORPORATE IT INTO THE DEBATE .. the left talk of the tendancy of the rate of profit to fall .. the talk of interest rates and cycles .. of long term bonds .. of repressive anti union legislation etc etc .. WE ALSO NEED TO TALK ABOUT LABOUR (not labour party but labour as in work) AND IMMIGRATION

hence it is also -- to talk about immigration in isolation -- pandering to an establishment right wing agenda, not `being brave and speaking out...blah blah political correcteness etc etc...` that is just more cliches picked up from the establishment and repeated...

.......

 

[Hanoipete]

bit defensive arent you?

who called who a racist?

just seems `tbaldwin` is a bit obsessed with this subject. like its a really big problem. its not, this is the 4th biggest economy in the world, it can cope with an extra 100k people a year if it chose to do so. it doesnt.

basically your arguments dont stand up. which is probably why you are so annoyed. as i said if you would like to talk about immigration in isolation from the system then you can talk about it for the rest of your life and nothing will change.

everyone agrees it lowers wages and so on. you get that point over well.

the left does talk about immigration and has for years, way before the right. saying that the free market experiment will lead to mass people movements as it has done. as it will continue to do. internally within countries, internally within `markets` like the EU25 and externally from nation to nation.

people movements also happen inside the UK dont they. why is that? its because people move to where money is. so you cant stop it, no on can. unless you attack the economic system on which its founded.

if you talk about it in isolation, as a single issue, then you are following a rightist agenda.

the only way to stop people movements is left wing political and economic systems in place internationally and nationally. apart from that you can talk about it until you are blue in the face coz i'm not going to judge anyone who wants a safer, richer, more secure life...

 

[durruti02]

bit defensive arent you?

it's frustrating talking to leftwingers wo have no interestin the dynamics of capitalism
who called who a racist?

er you implied it .. above .. as picked up by tree lover

just seems `tbaldwin` is a bit obsessed with this subject. like its a really big problem. its not, this is the 4th biggest economy in the world, it can cope with an extra 100k people a year if it chose to do so. it doesnt.

god you so miss the point .. it is not whether this economy can or can not cope with how many people

it is why it is happenning
and what does it mean for the w/c
and what should our response be

basically your arguments dont stand up. which is probably why you are so annoyed. as i said if you would like to talk about immigration in isolation from the system then you can talk about it for the rest of your life and nothing will change.

how many times do i have to say i am not putting immigration in isolation etc etc and p.s. if the left are so spot on with their ideas on immigration why the BNP?

everyone agrees it lowers wages and so on. you get that point over well.

no not everyone .. if you had read this thread you would have seen a dozen leftwingers repeating the capitalist mantra that immigration increases wages

the left does talk about immigration and has for years, way before the right. saying that the free market experiment will lead to mass people movements as it has done. as it will continue to do. internally within countries, internally within `markets` like the EU25 and externally from nation to nation.

yes it talks about it globally .. but not in terms of those 3 questions i put above .. in terms of this country ..

people movements also happen inside the UK dont they. why is that? its because people move to where money is. so you cant stop it, no on can. unless you attack the economic system on which its founded.

of course people move .. my parents did .. for work .. i did cos i fancied london .. that was a mistake! .. and of course you attack the system .. ( please check the posts on here ) .. the qustion is .. can you destroy a sytem if you do not understand and debate freely what is happenning and develop your tactics accordingly ..

but you show a major lack or misunderstanding here of recent w/c history .. when we had the 'closed shop' the w/c had an element of control over the workplace .. as i am sure you are aware, the closed shop was one of the first things Thatcher attacked ..

we now have a situation that people from other countrys KNOW that there will be work here

you quite rightly say people move if given a choice to where the work is .. the point is here that this is not just a natural process like the sun coming up in the morning but the state actually directly encouraghing the process

if you talk about it in isolation, as a single issue, then you are following a rightist agenda.

ffs how many times do you have to NOT read what i am saying .. see my above post for who is actually putting immigration in isolation

the only way to stop people movements is left wing political and economic systems in place internationally and nationally. apart from that you can talk about it until you are blue in the face coz i'm not going to judge anyone who wants a safer, richer, more secure life...

trouble is your so called left wing is so irrelvent that there will never be "..left wing political and economic systems in place internationally and nationally.." .. don't you see that the lefts irrelevence is allowing the far right to get a significant hook into the w/c??
mainly beacuase they fail to understand the effect of neo liberalism and particularly its immigration component, directly on w/c people ..


don't you understand that somehow you have to actually get there?? that you need to be saying things that w/c people relate to??

.....

 

[exosculate]

Good stuff durruti.

 

[Hanoipete]

Well I await the rise of your "real socialist" party that will tell everyone else on the left how they arent really left wing but you are - as you arent afraid to talk about `immigration`. and what/who are the working class? you support the rightist agenda of 70s unions? the closed shop was a rightwing construct. the uk state is actively encouraging immigration? you count the EU25?

i really think you dont get it, its a right wing nationalist set of arguments you present and when someone argues against you then you resort to saying you are a `true socialist` and only you understand `the working class`.

its incoherent gobbldygook and its sad to see so many poeple who think they are radical led by the nose by the Daily Mail.

 

[TonkaToy]

apart from that you can talk about it until you are blue in the face coz i'm not going to judge anyone who wants a safer, richer, more secure life...

Welcome to the conservative party and the capiltalist idiology. It's so pleasing to see a left winger come around to our way of thinking on a left wing messageboard.

No one is judging immigrants, but there has to be immigration controls. Just because one argues for immigration controls, it does not mean one is judging immigrants.

 

[exosculate]

Well I await the rise of your "real socialist" party that will tell everyone else on the left how they arent really left wing but you are - as you arent afraid to talk about `immigration`. and what/who are the working class? you support the rightist agenda of 70s unions? the closed shop was a rightwing construct. the uk state is actively encouraging immigration? you count the EU25?

i really think you dont get it, its a right wing nationalist set of arguments you present and when someone argues against you then you resort to saying you are a `true socialist` and only you understand `the working class`.

its incoherent gobbldygook and its sad to see so many poeple who think they are radical led by the nose by the Daily Mail.

The closed shop is what?

Oh I see - thats why Thatcher embraced it!

Buffoonery.

 

[TremulousTetra]

who called who a racist?

er you implied it .. above .. as picked up by tree lover.

I don't think Hanoipete implied you were racist, he implied like the rest of us did that you give this topic far too much prominence.

no not everyone .. if you had read this thread you would have seen a dozen leftwingers repeating the capitalist mantra that immigration increases wages.

where? I agree left-wingers have been using the neo-economic Liberalist arguments that immigration is good for the capitalist economy. Immigrants do pay more in taxes than they've receivecd benefits. this argument directly under cuts the fascists.

yes it talks about it globally .. but not in terms of those 3 questions i put above .. in terms of this country .. .....
it is why it is happenning
and what does it mean for the w/c
and what should our response be

well the solution for the problems it creates for the working class is in my opinion, is a closed shop, if I remember rightly what a closed shop is. What I seem to remember, is that a closed shop was a workplace where you could not work there if you did not join the trade union. This is something trade unionist had to fight for, and I agree it would be a major step forward if we could win that on a national basis, including immigrants.

we now have a situation that people from other countrys KNOW that there will be work here .....

people (immigrants) came here when we had the closed shop knowing there was work here.

trouble is your so called left wing is so irrelvent that there will never be "..left wing political and economic systems in place internationally and nationally.." .. don't you see that the lefts irrelevence is allowing the far right to get a significant hook into the w/c??
mainly beacuase they fail to understand the effect of neo liberalism and particularly its immigration component, directly on w/c people ..


don't you understand that somehow you have to actually get there?? that you need to be saying things that w/c people relate to??
.....

you are absolutely right, but I don't remember Karl Marx or any other socialist arguing you accept hook line and sinker the contradictory arguments of the ruling class, in order to relate to the working class. I do not think parroting what the fasists say will do us any favour, we have to distinguish ourselves.