Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[tbaldwin]

So Isambard you recognise the problems of taking Nurses and Doctors but you still support it?

Your arguement for trickle down economics is also a load of shite.

"Sorry there is no Doctor but you know in the long run it's going to be good for you,cos there all working in the UK and some of them might send money home to THEIR families and if your lucky they might give you some. THATS IF YOU HAVENT DIED IN THE MEANTIME"

 

[Isambard]

You're a snivelling little word twister aren't you?

Where did I say I SUPORT the right of the West to TAKE health staff?
I support the right of individuals to free movement.

I don't think you or a government on high have the right to force individuals to live anywhere.

You are Erich Honnecker and I claim my five DDR Marks!

 

[tbaldwin]

You're a snivelling little word twister aren't you?

Where did I say I SUPORT the right of the West to TAKE health staff?
I support the right of individuals to free movement.

I don't think you or a government on high have the right to force individuals to live anywhere.

You are Erich Honnecker and I claim my five DDR Marks!

Word twister indeed. So you dont support taking people you just support letting them come?
I think you know your wrong don't you?


Are you in any way related to Norman Tebbitt?

 

[Isambard]

I think you know your wrong don't you?

Are you in any way related to Norman Tebbitt?

If I think I’m wrong, I admit it.

I don’t think I’m wrong, I’ve given the matter some thought as opposed to repeating what some professional politico has said and the abusiveness, slandering, shouting, fact twisting and the like that are your stock in trade on this and other arguments.

I’ve held my opinion for approaching 15 years now, ever since I rejected the reformist labourism that you still cling to;
despite the fact that it has considerably worsened during that time.


I'm an immigrant myself and being compared to that slimy vicious racist fuck Tebbit leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I can't think of one point where I could have anything in common with him.

Only good thing to say about him, he must be a quick reader. Cos he got through 5 stories in four seconds!

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're a snivelling little word twister aren't you?

Where did I say I SUPORT the right of the West to TAKE health staff?
I support the right of individuals to free movement.

I don't think you or a government on high have the right to force individuals to live anywhere.

You are Erich Honnecker and I claim my five DDR Marks!

Actually you've hit on a good comparison there.

Meister Erich was another person who forever banged on about being a socialist while preaching authoritarianism and nationalism.

5 Ost-marks, eh? How do you want tbaldwin to pay you your 16p?

 

[Isambard]

Get yourself a virtual cup of tea VP!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Get yourself a virtual cup of tea VP!

Did you ever handle east German money?

Very odd "paper". I think they must have sprayed melted Trabants on it or something.

 

[Isambard]

Did you ever handle east German money?

Yeah was in the DDR before the fall of the SED and after while they still had the old money. I even managed to get denied permission for a while to leave the DDR via Checkpoint Baldwin, sorry, Checkpoint Charlie which was a bit scary.

My favourite notes right now are Slovak ones apart from that fascist c*** Hlinka on the thousand.

 

[tbaldwin]

If I think I’m wrong, I admit it.

I don’t think I’m wrong, I’ve given the matter some thought as opposed to repeating what some professional politico has said and the abusiveness, slandering, shouting, fact twisting and the like that are your stock in trade on this and other arguments.

I’ve held my opinion for approaching 15 years now, ever since I rejected the reformist labourism that you still cling to;
despite the fact that it has considerably worsened during that time.


I'm an immigrant myself and being compared to that slimy vicious racist fuck Tebbit leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I can't think of one point where I could have anything in common with him.

Only good thing to say about him, he must be a quick reader. Cos he got through 5 stories in four seconds!

Liked the Norman Tebbitt joke!
What proffesional politician do you think i'm copying?
What country are you an immigrant from? And why did you move?

 

[Isambard]

I think you are copying a whole row of politicians tbh.

I'm not going to discuss my personal details here. I've a much better standard of living due to the fact that I emigrated, I don't regret it and I don't think you have the right to deny it to anybody.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah was in the DDR before the fall of the SED and after while they still had the old money. I even managed to get denied permission for a while to leave the DDR via Checkpoint Baldwin, sorry, Checkpoint Charlie which was a bit scary.

I did a short posting in Berlin (my bttn was based at Munster) in 1981, back when the army tried to discourage folk from visiting the east of the city, but I visited again (this time as a private citizen) in '87 and went over. They had that really swindling official exchange rate where you HAD to change your money up, and then when you got over there you found it was worth even less (lucky I took some dollars in my shoes!).

Checkpoint Baldwin, wasn't that the one through an open sewer?

Thinking of sewers, I reckon the Ost-marks were made out of some kind of washable arse-paper.

 

[exosculate]

I think you are copying a whole row of politicians tbh.

I'm not going to discuss my personal details here. I've a much better standard of living due to the fact that I emigrated, I don't regret it and I don't think you have the right to deny it to anybody.

The neo-liberals allow a proportion of people entry in a variety of ways because it suits them. If only we had a world where open borders could be a reality - a true free movement could occur. Of course we don't - open borders would mean excessive movement of people at the present time - and as such it is as noble an idea as it is ridiculous.

Did you read that article?

 

[exosculate]

Thinking of sewers, I reckon the Ost-marks were made out of some kind of washable arse-paper.

How soft, strong and long would you say they were?

 

[tbaldwin]

The neo-liberals allow a proportion of people entry in a variety of ways because it suits them. If only we had a world where open borders could be a reality - a true free movement could occur. Of course we don't - open borders would mean excessive movement of people at the present time - and as such it is as noble an idea as it is ridiculous.

Did you read that article?

Open borders is fine for those who can afford it. Not an option for everyone.
In the meantime developing countries are being plundered of skilled labour and people who think there left wing??? Think its wrong but are not against it!!!!!!!

 

[exosculate]

Open borders is fine for those who can afford it. Not an option for everyone.
In the meantime developing countries are being plundered of skilled labour and people who think there left wing??? Think its wrong but are not against it!!!!!!!

Open borders would be catastrophic for almost everyone in my view. Watch what happens when Turkey gets EU membership in the EU's thirst for cheap labour.

 

[tbaldwin]

Open borders would be catastrophic for almost everyone in my view. Watch what happens when Turkey gets EU membership in the EU's thirst for cheap labour.

Well i think some people would benefit. It would help landlords as demand for properties would grow. It could help employers because increased demand would lead to lower wages and a lot of liberals would be happy to stick up for the rights of people to come here. Some of them of course would have nice paid jobs working with migrants or earn loads as immigration lawyers etc.
So there would be plenty of people happy to see more migration.

 

[durruti02]

You're a snivelling little word twister aren't you?

Where did I say I SUPORT the right of the West to TAKE health staff?
I support the right of individuals to free movement.

I don't think you or a government on high have the right to force individuals to live anywhere.

You are Erich Honnecker and I claim my five DDR Marks!

"I support the right of individuals to free movement".

"But what gives you the right to impose those restrictions on another individual?Even the argument that an individual has to suffer "for the greater good" cannot always hold water."

this is just classic liberalism/individualism .. if you were any type of socialist your language would be entirely differrent .. you would indeed talk of the common good .. and you would clearly recognise that the vast majority of individuals will only really be FREE to choose to travel when this current system is destroyed.. when people will be free to move out of choice not neccessity .. you claim "People want to move" .. claptrap .. 99% of immigrants are forced by economic neccesity/war/rape/oppression etc to move .. that is the reality of immigration ..

look again at why we have such high immigration .. and what FUNCTION it plays within out economic and political system .. and tell us again it is purely about the right of the individual ..

 

[kasheem]

Totally agree with you Durruti. All the facts are on our side, good on you bothering with these people 'cos I don't have the patience.

 

[tbaldwin]

Totally agree with you Durruti. All the facts are on our side, good on you bothering with these people 'cos I don't have the patience.

I think its important to expose the weakness of their assumptions and arguements. Some like Cockney Rebel etc will never think it through but others reading the arguement will have, and that can only be good.

 

[durruti02]

well i never .. from the Socialist Unity website as posted by MC5 on 'the bnp humiliated' thread

" .....But John Cruddas MP brilliantly explains how New Labour exacerbates the problem still further:

“The government has never attempted to systematically annunciate a clear set of principles that embrace the notion of immigration and its associated economic and social benefits. Yet at the same time it has tacitly used immigration to help forge the preferred flexible North American labour market. Especially in London, legal and illegal immigration has been central in replenishing the stock of cheap labour across the public and private services, construction and civil engineering.

“Politically, the government is then left in a terrible position. It triangulates around immigration and colludes in the demonisation of the migrant whilst relying on the self same people to rebuild our public and private services and make our labour markets flexible. Immigrant labour is the axis for the domestic agenda of the government yet it fails to defend the principle of immigration and by doing so re-enforces the isolation and vulnerability of immigrants. The government helps in the process of stigmatising the most vulnerable as the whole political centre of gravity moves to the right on matters of race.”

We need a clear message on the benefits of immigration, but this will not be done because of the process of triangulation, as it might scare the undecideds of Middle Wallop. As a result, several mainstream, or even left, commentators are prepared to collude when working class people express their concern about housing and service provision in racist terms. For example, the Young Foundation's recent study of social changes in the East End, “The New East End: kinship, race and conflict”, which legitimises racism by accepting the argument that Whites in the East End have lost out as the welfare state provides for Bengali immigrants. ... "

and again ..

" ..There is also increasing evidence that in some of the traditional blue collar skilled jobs (e.g. plumbing, HGV driving etc), employers are becoming more active in using immigrants to suppress wages. As a result the Trade Unions must intensify their attempts to organise migrant labour in a way that makes common cause with the indigenous workforce..."

although the article doesn't challenge the oft repeated assertion that immigration boosts the economy .. if it does do, it does it in a classic thatcherite way of low wages boosting competitivesness and lowering costs .. what we all need is not competitiveness but real things built for need real jobs, not mc jobs ... and immigration by choice not neccessity or for the capitalists ... a very differrent type of economy
.

 

[TremulousTetra]

don't understand you point.

 

[Hanoipete]

im not sure whether this makes me judean poeples front or the front of judea, which many of you seem to be/not to be

but i support all immigrants (outside of the super rich non-domiciled types) and their right to do what the fuck they want but at the same time the way that immigration is structured - that it undercuts wages/steals well qualified workers from poor countries leaving the most desperate (and perhaps most deserving) behind - is a major issue that generally benefits the richest as has been pointed out.

i also think that even western left/anachist people, like tbaldwin adn durutti here, compare poverty in the UK to poverty in places like the sub saharan countries. i dont understand whay anyone stays in sierra leone or chad or nigeria - outside of their elites - so im not going to theorise that they should.

also you cannot discuss immigration on its own imo. i think it is falling into a trap set by the right to discuss immigration on its own out of context with western foriegn policy, the two are part of the same issue. to discuss movement of peoples outside of a context of foreign policy is really pretty useless...

as for the white w/c community (and anyone else) who vote BNP as a result, i'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt including them, even a couple of times, but at some point those poeple have to take resposibility for voting fascist just like the Blackshirts (uk) in the 1930s did in the end. at some point you have to say those people are weak wallowing racist scum and they need cutting out of society. bending over backwards to accomodate those kind of ideas is patronising, saying that someone on an estate voting BNP is like, ya know just a good guy yall because theyve had a shit life...in the end a fascist voter is a fascist voter.

 

[tbaldwin]

I think you have to discuss the issue in its true context. Which of course includes slavery and the plundering of resources by imperialist powers.
Much cleverer minds than mine, Fanon etc talk about Economic Slavery and this is what the pro migrationists seem to be backing.
There is no excuse in 2006 for anyone to be firmly in favour of economic migration and at the same time pretending to be a Socialist

 

[durruti02]

don't understand you point.

er?? how so?? about as bloody obvious as you can get!

so .. the point is, the thread title is

" Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism" ..

and er the lefties on U75 have spent hours saying how immigration is great for everyone, the immigrants, the economy, culture, the working class etc etc etc and "how dare anyone who calls themselves a commie suggest maybe it has something to do with capitalism" .. ( p.s. the system we live under) .. and knock me down with a feather but here is a left wing Labour MP ( incidently, or probably not incidently but logically, from Dagenham) saying exactly the same thing!! And also the disgusting strategy the state has of making out it it's hard on immigration while all along it is ' tacitly' pushing it to undermine the labour movement/wc

And just to repeat some of his comments

" ... it has tacitly used immigration to help forge the preferred flexible North American labour market. Especially in London, legal and illegal immigration has been central in replenishing the stock of cheap labour across the public and private services, construction and civil engineering..."

presumably by 'North American Model' he means Neo-Liberalism/Thatcherism ..

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache...ddas+joseph+rowntree&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1

 

[treelover]

yes Durruti, and Jon Cruddas should know, he was a former adviser to one Tony Blair on industrial/union/labour relations....

 

[durruti02]

yes Durruti, and Jon Cruddas should know, he was a former adviser to one Tony Blair on industrial/union/labour relations....

absol-fking-utely my man!

 

[exosculate]

The pertinence of this thread given the Dagenham situation is very interesting.

 

[Hanoipete]

yeah of course it has. and what?

you gonna stop someone from chad coming here to escape a life expectancy of 42 to placate some cunts who vote bnp in barking?

there is theory and there is now.

you will never stop mass immigration in its present form until you make the countries worth staying in.

so the foreign policy aspect is the first part, not the last. the rest is just falling into a trap laid by the right, endlessly discussing immigration and foreigners and terrorists.

as for `socialist`, who gives a fuck about labels? socialist smoshalist. thats for students.

 

[tbaldwin]

Until Western Countries stop poaching skilled workers, poor countries are fucked.
Try living in Kenya when we have taken all their skilled workers.
Some people believe in the trickle down economic benefits of Economic migration...They are normally those who do best out of it.
Not those Left behind.
The logical finish to Economic Migration is that everyone moves...That can move..... And sod the rest..... Survival of the fittest....

 

[exosculate]

Until Western Countries stop poaching skilled workers, poor countries are fucked.
Try living in Kenya when we have taken all their skilled workers.
Some people believe in the trickle down economic benefits of Economic migration...They are normally those who do best out of it.
Not those Left behind.
The logical finish to Economic Migration is that everyone moves...That can move..... And sod the rest..... Survival of the fittest....

I fear this is lost on large parts of the left. They're like the Borg.