cockneyrebel
New Member
You couldn't make it up.....
Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??
- Thread starter durruti02
- Start date
You couldn't make it up.....
cockneyrebel said:
A few people seem to be relying on making things up,on here.
You though Cockney Rebel are a great Socialist who just doesnt happen to trust Local Democracy. You would much rather take the views of the Central Committee over the views of ordinary working class people and your in a group called Workers Power........
No. I am a Socialist who argues for International Labour Laws and is happy to see people in Developing countries get Jobs in those countries.Pigeon said:Whereas you're a great socialist who stands for the rights of capital to move wherever there's an acquiescent and impoverished pool of labour.
What the hell are you on about? I would like to see more work go to developing countries and a shorter working week in the UK etc.Pigeon said:At the expense of jobs in developed countries.
As a Liberal you might find it harder to understand but you know Socialists look at the world and think that sharing work and wealth is quite a good idea.
What you think id hate to guess.
tbaldwin said:
Right. So you define yourself as a socialist on the basis of what you'd "like to see" without any meaningful analysis of the world as it actually is, drawing up an impotent "wish-list" of platitudes along the lines of "multinationals should be nicer to workers in developing countries", then have the bloody nerve to describe other people as "liberals".
What a fucking joke.
iROBOT
CURRENTLY RE-BOOTING
It's not just the Multinationals that we have to address is it?tbaldwin said:
I suggest that the way the world is now (modern capitalism) is a European invention and the Europeans and their decendance who have settled in stolen countries need to change the culture of exploitation that has seen them predominate for the past 400 years or so.
This I belive is fundamental to understanding the world as it is now before we spout on about neo liberalism ect.....all side line issues in my view.
IRobot,
If we have settled in stolen countries then maybe we should pay reperations. Not continue to take the people those countries need most but give something back.
The multinationals,should be pressurised or forced to change the working conditions of people they exploit.
If we have settled in stolen countries then maybe we should pay reperations. Not continue to take the people those countries need most but give something back.
The multinationals,should be pressurised or forced to change the working conditions of people they exploit.
iROBOT
CURRENTLY RE-BOOTING
Reparations work for me, this way the local ecomomies can benifit and the need for (economic) migration would cease.
They'll always be migration of course, but being forced to leave ones own land because the local economy cant support you should be seen as one of the worst of many capitalsit crimes.
They'll always be migration of course, but being forced to leave ones own land because the local economy cant support you should be seen as one of the worst of many capitalsit crimes.
You haven't answered the question tbaldwin of who you WOULD allow to work in Britain.
Would you expel non-British nationals?
What do you think about the millions of British Citizens who would return to Britain and flood the job market if people were no longer allowed to work abroad?
Would you expel non-British nationals?
What do you think about the millions of British Citizens who would return to Britain and flood the job market if people were no longer allowed to work abroad?
Isambard said:
Thats because it is incredibly complex as you must realise.
I was talking to a cabbie yesterday and he started off moaning about how bendie buses were holding up the traffic etc.
Then we got on to the congestion charge and increased tube fares. I said i thought the problem was there were just too many people in London.
He went on about how the EU had grown and that People he knew from back in Nigeria were no longer coming to the UK becuase the Jobs market was now tougher for them.
For me the fact is that London can not take all the people who want to live in it. If we allow the free market to sort out who can and cant live where,HOW FAIR IS THAT?
Nobody seems really happy with the way migration is being handled at the moment.
Personally i would like the UK to always welcome genuine refugees but maybe on time limited renewable passports.
And would also allow people to come here for genuine marriages (difficult i know)
But i would like the UK to do all it could to dissuade economic migrants.
Particularly Australians and White South Africans.
Isambard said:Did he also mention about how people on Incapacity benefit were all malingerers perhaps?
No but as someone who has worked with loads of people on IB and has claimed it himself i would have made a few points on that.
But the issue wasnt raised no.
Isambard said:
If it is limited to the people who have the money to make that choice?
Then i suppose you would have to be against it. Tough on the individual but some rules have to be for the greater good.
The alternative to it is freedom of movement for those that can afford it.
And that is chaotic and makes the world a much more unequal place.
tbaldwin said:
No, I think ANYBODY should be free to live where they like.
There are already passports and of course work permits for non-EU citizens.
And guess what, people still CHOOSE to migrate.
Even people who don't get work permits errrrrrrm.decide to migrate!
been away and thankfully off urban!
but equally well, coming back and re reading this thread, i am very pleased to see that finally we are able to talk about immigration and it's role within capitalism .. except in the company still of the swps and CR who still appear to hold to a pro capitalist position as regards immigration .. one of them suggested that it is ok we chase capital rather than forcing capital to do out bidding ( before the glorious day that is!) .. other liberals have tried to play the race card when of course there is nothing in the title of the thread that indicates i am not talking as much about middle class and working class movement in britain as much as immigration from say pakistan ..
to me the point of this whole thread was to try to show not just that immigration is a key tool of capitalism (and especially of neo liberalism) but that we need to look at things not just from a humanitarian point of view ( however important that is for us and our humanity) but also strategically/systemically etc etc
a differrent society that does not exploit immigrants will not just come easily or from aspirations to a 'free' world with 'no borders' .. it will only come when the majority of the people desire it ... some think that this will come by putting forward progressive slogans and hoping that the people will relate to them and adopt them .. personally i belive this will not work without politics that is also materialist ..
to build in the community and the workplace we need to have policies that will strengthen/ empower people .. the unions generally have policies that aim to BENEFIT NOT EMPOWER their members .. (TA's generally do very little!! )
to identify how to combat neo liberalism we need to understand what are its processes .. clearly the 'open' borders we have in britain today is one of those processes .. as is just as clearly 'immigration controls' to control those people .. not to stop them coming .. this is key
i am always not keen on looking at the state level and prefer grass roots initiatives .. i.e. workforce aiming for more control over recruitment / tenants aiming for more control over housing allocation etc
as siihi ( i think) has said i do not though think it would be illegitimate to argue for ( demand?) employment and training policies that benefit the millions of UK unemployed .. could anyone argue against that??
and patty i agree that we need to organise with anyone .. when someone is in a workplace or estate you work with them .. but my experiance of agency staff whether aussie rumanian or british is that they are not interested ..
and again while it does not matter to gate gourmet workers, immediately, who took their jobs, (and if left at the workplace you would try to organise those people) .. it is probable however without the ability to use immigration their bosses would not have been able to pull that particular manoeuver
but equally well, coming back and re reading this thread, i am very pleased to see that finally we are able to talk about immigration and it's role within capitalism .. except in the company still of the swps and CR who still appear to hold to a pro capitalist position as regards immigration .. one of them suggested that it is ok we chase capital rather than forcing capital to do out bidding ( before the glorious day that is!) .. other liberals have tried to play the race card when of course there is nothing in the title of the thread that indicates i am not talking as much about middle class and working class movement in britain as much as immigration from say pakistan ..
to me the point of this whole thread was to try to show not just that immigration is a key tool of capitalism (and especially of neo liberalism) but that we need to look at things not just from a humanitarian point of view ( however important that is for us and our humanity) but also strategically/systemically etc etc
a differrent society that does not exploit immigrants will not just come easily or from aspirations to a 'free' world with 'no borders' .. it will only come when the majority of the people desire it ... some think that this will come by putting forward progressive slogans and hoping that the people will relate to them and adopt them .. personally i belive this will not work without politics that is also materialist ..
to build in the community and the workplace we need to have policies that will strengthen/ empower people .. the unions generally have policies that aim to BENEFIT NOT EMPOWER their members .. (TA's generally do very little!! )
to identify how to combat neo liberalism we need to understand what are its processes .. clearly the 'open' borders we have in britain today is one of those processes .. as is just as clearly 'immigration controls' to control those people .. not to stop them coming .. this is key
i am always not keen on looking at the state level and prefer grass roots initiatives .. i.e. workforce aiming for more control over recruitment / tenants aiming for more control over housing allocation etc
as siihi ( i think) has said i do not though think it would be illegitimate to argue for ( demand?) employment and training policies that benefit the millions of UK unemployed .. could anyone argue against that??
and patty i agree that we need to organise with anyone .. when someone is in a workplace or estate you work with them .. but my experiance of agency staff whether aussie rumanian or british is that they are not interested ..
and again while it does not matter to gate gourmet workers, immediately, who took their jobs, (and if left at the workplace you would try to organise those people) .. it is probable however without the ability to use immigration their bosses would not have been able to pull that particular manoeuver
Isambard said:
is .. i agree sort of in theory .. but your libertarian statement is as much thatcherite as it is anarchist .. do you not think that the world would be a better place if people had control over the processes that dominate their lives?? what you suggest reeks of a middle class ' i want i shall get ' attitude
the truth is at the moment very few people globally have freedom to live where they can AND IN FACT IMMIGRATION IS NOT ABOUT FREEDOM TO LIVE WHERE YOU WANT BUT HAVING TO FOLLOW CAPITAL .. that is not freedom
durruti02 said:
The appeal for middle class young people with a sort of social conscience,is obvious. Thye want their own freedom to live where they like. And its easy for them to then support that right for everyone...
But the truth is that it cant work for everyone. There is no freedom of movement for people who cant afford it.
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