Immigration .. part of neo liberalism/Thatcherism??

[tbaldwin]

Sir, the one thing you could never do is disappoint me.

Now, don't you have an outraged letter to write to Nike?

Putting pressure on companies like Nike/McDonalds/Nestle etc is no bad thing.
Its a hell of a lot better than insisting on the right of everyone rich enough to afford it, to go where theyd like.

 

[Isambard]

Why is it "better" ?

How can complaining about about multi-nationals be in contradicition to the belief that ALL people should have freedom of movement?

 

[tbaldwin]

Why is it "better" ?

How can complaining about about multi-nationals be in contradicition to the belief that ALL people should have freedom of movement?

Did i say it was a contradiction?

I personally think Internationalists should take seriously the consequences of mass migration and exploiting workers wherever they are.
I would argue that both are important.
People in the West could put a lot more pressure on some of the worst companies to improve conditions in developing countries. That would be far better in my view than the Joke Internationalists who campaign against immigration controls.

 

[Isambard]

For a lot of people, getting deported back to poverty / violence / opression isn't much of a "joke".

 

[tbaldwin]

For a lot of people, getting deported back to poverty / violence / opression isn't much of a "joke".

If your proposing that we let a few lucky ones come to the West,what about the people left behind?

 

[Isambard]

If your proposing that we let a few lucky ones come to the West,what about the people left behind?

Where did I say that "we" should let a few "lucky" ones come to the west?

I said that for those facing deportation, because of imigration controls and supported by campaigners who (often) beleive in freedom of movement, that the violence and poverty the faced being deported back to was no "joke".

 

[Patty]

If your proposing that we let a few lucky ones come to the West,what about the people left behind?

There is no easy anwer to this issue.
If, like me you feel that immigration controlls have a negetive effect on wc people as much as uncontrolled economic migration (those effects have all been metioned) then i't must be a question of having to find a way of fighting against the causes of economic migration and fighting against the social conditions in the reagions were migrants arrive.

 

[tbaldwin]

Where did I say that "we" should let a few "lucky" ones come to the west?

I said that for those facing deportation, because of imigration controls and supported by campaigners who (often) beleive in freedom of movement, that the violence and poverty the faced being deported back to was no "joke".

I said IF? If you re-read what i said.

 

[tbaldwin]

There is no easy anwer to this issue.
If, like me you feel that immigration controlls have a negetive effect on wc people as much as uncontrolled economic migration (those effects have all been metioned) then i't must be a question of having to find a way of fighting against the causes of economic migration and fighting against the social conditions in the reagions were migrants arrive.

No there is no easy answer.
But the consequences of mass migration are much greater than the negative effect of immigration controls.
But yes i agree people should do whatever they can to fighting against the social conditions that encourage people to leave behind homes and families.

 

[Isambard]

So who should be allowed to settle in Britain then tbaldwin?

Irish Citizens?
"Old" EU Citizens?
"New" EU Citizens?
"White Commonewealth" Citizens?
All Commonwealth Citizens?
US Citizens?
Others?

How do "we" ie the Home Office decide who should be allowed into Britain or have their personal freedoms curtailed "for the greater good"?

 

[tbaldwin]

So who should be allowed to settle in Britain then tbaldwin?

Irish Citizens?
"Old" EU Citizens?
"New" EU Citizens?
"White Commonewealth" Citizens?
All Commonwealth Citizens?
US Citizens?
Others?

How do "we" ie the Home Office decide who should be allowed into Britain or have their personal freedoms curtailed "for the greater good"?

Is this some kind of pathetic attempt to catch me out as a Racist?

 

[exosculate]

Is this some kind of pathetic attempt to catch me out as a Racist?

I think it might be the - you're OK if white people move here approach. These arguments always start to focus on this after a while.

 

[tbaldwin]

I think it might be the - you're OK if white people move here approach. These arguments always start to focus on this after a while.

That just shows how shallow the Orthodox left are.

 

[Isambard]

No. I'm not trying to make you out as a racist tbaldwin.

"White Commonwealth" as in Australia / New Zealand / Canada.

Do you make a difference between an Australian coming to London to work from a Nigerian?

Australia wouldn't "suffer" in this case but Nigeria might.

But it often boils down to this, true. It's not Bruce & Sheilah working the pubs or Earls Court that are accused of driving rents up. It's not the Germaine Greers or Clive james who are accused of driving wages down is it?

(I nicked that and paraphrased it from an essay by Hanif Kureshi. )


"Orthodox left" ? Moi?

 

[tbaldwin]

No. I'm not trying to make you out as a racist tbaldwin.

"White Commonwealth" as in Australia / New Zealand / Canada.

Do you make a difference between an Australian coming to London to work from a Nigerian?

Australia wouldn't "suffer" in this case but Nigeria might.

But it often boils down to this, true. It's not Bruce & Sheilah working the pubs or Earls Court that are accused of driving rents up. It's not the Germaine Greers or Clive james who are accused of driving wages down is it?

(I nicked that and paraphrased it from an essay by Hanif Kureshi. )


"Orthodox left" ? Moi?

Thanks for making it clear that you dont think im a Racist!
I am a bit of a bigot though when it comes to White South Africans and Australians. I think its a bit sick that given the History that they are taking Jobs from Black people in the UK.
But perhaps its best not to get sidetracked on that!!!!

As you say Australia might not suffer but People looking for Jobs in London etc would.

 

[Isambard]

As you say Australia might not suffer but People looking for Jobs in London etc would.

While making it clear that I'm not a fan of capitalism the reason that so many Australians come to London is that their labour is demand on the market. They are not depriving anyone of a job.

At a ROUGH guess I'd wager there is no clear correlation between a high number of imiimigrants and high unemployment.

 

[tbaldwin]

While making it clear that I'm not a fan of capitalism the reason that so many Australians come to London is that their labour is demand on the market. They are not depriving anyone of a job.

At a ROUGH guess I'd wager there is no clear correlation between a high number of imiimigrants and high unemployment.

That would only be true if there were an infinite number of Jobs.
Australians are taking Jobs that could go to Black People in the UK.
Look at the number of Cafes and Bars in London employing white migrants from Eastern Europe and Australia.
And look at the figures of ethnic minority unemployment in London.
The truth is many employers would far rather give Jobs to Australians and Poles etc than Black Londoners.

 

[Isambard]

I don't doubt some employers are racist.
I don't think though that they'd take on Black British staff simply if "we" stopped Poles and Australians from living in London.

The equation is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't doubt some employers are racist.
I don't think though that they'd take on Black British staff simply if "we" stopped Poles and Australians from living in London.

The equation is a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.

Well when the question is given the choice would they rather employ a preety young white Australian barmaid or a Black woman. I reckon that quite a few would go for the Australian.
So the reality is that the Australian is limiting the chances of the Black woman getting the Job.

 

[Isambard]

You see things very black and white don't you. Pun intended.

If you take the Australian out of the picture, a racist employer could / would STILL turn down the Black potential employee.

I think you need to grasp the concept that the labour market can be facing certain labour shortages at the same time as there is unemployment for a number of that require more complicated solutions than "send em back where they came from".

Not a direct quote from you.

 

[tbaldwin]

You see things very black and white don't you. Pun intended.

If you take the Australian out of the picture, a racist employer could / would STILL turn down the Black potential employee.

I think you need to grasp the concept that the labour market can be facing certain labour shortages at the same time as there is unemployment for a number of that require more complicated solutions than "send em back where they came from".

Not a direct quote from you.

Could yes but if there was not that competition for the Job they WOULD be less likely to turn down the black applicant surely?

A friend advertised a Cafe job recently they had around 400 applicants. Over 300 Eastern Europeans. So it must have become harder for people from this country especially Black/Asian people to get Jobs.
It is becoming much more an Employers market at the moment and mass migration is very much part of that.

 

[Pigeon]

Putting pressure on companies like Nike/McDonalds/Nestle etc is no bad thing.

Well, the corollary of what you appear to be arguing for is some sort of(hopefully benign ) 21st Century corporate fiefdom, complete with iris recogniton at every checkpoint.

If that's what floats your boat, fine.

 

[Pigeon]

I know some people will argue that Western companies going to India etc is a bad thing. But it is a far better thing to take Jobs to the people than the other way round.

So you, at least, do believe in the free movement of capital?

 

[Isambard]

A friend advertised a Cafe job recently they had around 400 applicants. Over 300 Eastern Europeans. So it must have become harder for people from this country especially Black/Asian people to get Jobs.

Sorry, I do not believe a job in a cafe received 400 applicants for the position.

It is not a "must" that the presence of EU citizens on the UK job market means less employment for Black Britons. It is a lazy correlation.

Racists and fascists (of which I'm not accusing you of) advertise with slogans like "1 million less immigrants means 1 million more jobs" but it just doesn't work that way.

Obviously you want the Poles etc thrown out of Britain. What about the German, French and Spanish Citizens who have moved to Britain? What about the Irish Citizens in Britain?

And of course I'll take it you'll be happy when the millions of (highly skilled and often multi-lingual) Britons living abroad are forcibly re-patriated to the UK and crowd onto the job market eh?

 

[rednblack]

Sorry, I do not believe a job in a cafe received 400 applicants for the position.

i do

 

[Isambard]

I'm prepared to stand corrected. One of the places I work part time advertised for new bar staff recently and maybe 6 people applied for the job.

The high proportion of eastern Europeans wouldn't surprise me as (talking of newly arrived Poles in particular) they often find it VERY hard to get work (so would go en masse for anything) and accomodation in London and are reguarly exploiteed by their supposed fellow countrymen.

We've dicussed it a bit in a few threads.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm prepared to stand corrected. One of the places I work part time advertised for new bar staff recently and maybe 6 people applied for the job.

The high proportion of eastern Europeans wouldn't surprise me as (talking of newly arrived Poles in particular) they often find it VERY hard to get work (so would go en masse for anything) and accomodation in London and are reguarly exploiteed by their supposed fellow countrymen.

We've dicussed it a bit in a few threads.

The Job im talking about was advertised in the Jobcentre. Where was that vacancy advertised Private Eye?

 

[tbaldwin]

So you, at least, do believe in the free movement of capital?

I would rather Jobs were exported to India etc than people from those countries were forced to come here.

 

[Pigeon]

I would rather Jobs were exported to India etc than people from those countries were forced to come here.

So you have no regard for the effects of such "free trade" arrangements on wages & conditions?

 

[Isambard]

The Job im talking about was advertised in the Jobcentre. Where was that vacancy advertised Private Eye?

Like a lot of catering jobs it was advertised by a poster in the window of the business.