Immigration for economic reasons

[Jessiedog]

So you think the best thing we could do for the phillipines is take all their skilled workers......Brilliant what an amazingly big brain you have......

*sigh*

I thought not.

Oh well.

As you were peeps.



Woof

 

[dennisr]

Exactly!
...I'm glad I gave up.

Well not exactly Jessie - i think you will find durruti is already with you on that one

 

[Jessiedog]

IF you actually want to get rid of the system that creates such poverty and its extremes you can't just moan/chant about it .. you have to organise .. and where you live and work .. and that will mean defending the rights of the workers/people in that country .. and building movements that can actually challenge these extremes and the whole system ..

this is not nationalism .. it is common sense ..

and powerless workers can NOT be and are NOT internationalist ..

If you actually want to get rid of "the man" then you go right ahead.

And good luck! Fnerr, fnerr.

What you call "common sense", I call "selfishness".

You "unite" with your workers then.

But watch out - there are many poor peeps out here and the world is getting smaller. Many hungry peeps.

And your selfesh desire to exclude others from the honeypot will not deflect the influx.

Powerless workers my fucking arse.

Have you spent much time around really powerless workers?

Those on this thread arguing against immigration are anti-poor, selfish, "I'm alright Jack", wankers.



You change the system.

In the meantime, there are many that need work - that's my priority.



Woof

 

[durruti02]

don't know about the poor man, and given up interest in the threads you keep bumping. But I am beginning to wonder about your obsession with the 'immigration exposes the left' arguement. For christ's sake durruti, any valid points you did have are getting a bit lost in the repetative tedium of it all now.

if you are so concened for the native working man and woman - how about doing something about thier situation rather than going on and on and on about the 'threat' from immigrants as if its the only bloody issue. Frankly, my friends and workmates have got a lot more 'issues' affecting them than immigration (although you would not believe that if you trusted either the media, government or your endlessly regurgitated threads).

ok fair play with your third line .. you may well be right about the repeatativeness though .. it does weaken an argument ..

but your second para misses the point .. (in a way that is really typical of the left ) i am not in any way at all concerned with 'nativeness' .. but from leftists this is a typical mistake .. it is all about our ability to organise politically .. it is about analyising what the state/govt/bosses are doing and identfying how to respond to that ..

sadly i suspect you have not actually read much of what i have been arguing for .. which is for a rebuilding of the trade unions .. which is for immiragtion on chice not economic neccessity ..


i am ..and have been off and on for over 20 years .. an active trade unionist and steward .. i do the day to day to day stuff er day to day ... yes yes yes of course immigration is but a part of the whole picture ... yes yes yes people only talk of it occasssionally at work .. but when they do all my colleagues see much clearer tha the left what the bosses are up to

and it is important for 3 reasons .. 1. there is a clear material fact of it being used in work/labour .. 2. the state and media are playing a sickenning game of attacking immigrants while secretly ( as john cruddas has pointed out, encouraging immigration) and 3. cos much of the left stand frightenned in the headlights not sure what to say or do while around them the w/c slips to the right

.. SW refuses to acknowledge there is a material/labour issue around immigration and that there is purely an idological war going on that must be oppossed in terms of attacking racism ( p.s.i belive this is not where you stand )

 

[tbaldwin]

Those on this thread arguing against immigration are anti-poor, selfish, "I'm alright Jack", wankers.



Woof

What a truly stupid person you must be to post nonsense like that. The arguement that taking the people that developing nations need most is not anti poor or selfish.
You seem totally incapable of doing anything but repeating your very shallow and ignorant views.
Meanwhile poor nations lose Doctors,Teachers and Engineers to richer nations people starve and scum like you pat yourself on the back about how NICE you are...

 

[Jessiedog]

What a truly stupid person you must be to post nonsense like that. The arguement that taking the people that developing nations need most is not anti poor or selfish.
You seem totally incapable of doing anything but repeating your very shallow and ignorant views.
Meanwhile poor nations lose Doctors,Teachers and Engineers to richer nations people starve and scum like you pat yourself on the back about how NICE you are...

I see.

I knew you would fail to engage in debate and fail to address my points.

So, let's play it your way then shall we? Drag it down a bit? Eh?


You are totally blinkered by and trapped within a nationalist political ideology that ignores the reality of travails of the the poor in iother countries.

You are a complete idiot and a fucking tosser.

There's no point in engaging with you.

So fuck off, you BNP cunt!



Woof

 

[audiotech]

Meanwhile poor nations lose Doctors,Teachers and Engineers to richer nations people starve....

Hang on a minute in the UK we have reports suggesting that there are not enough training places for Doctors (those that are left might have to emigrate), nurses are being made redundant and many teachers are employed on temporary contracts. Manufacturing industry is at a historical low. So where are these skilled immigrants from poor nations going to be employed?

People starve from poor nations losing Doctors, teachers and engineers to richer nations? How does that work?

 

[tbaldwin]

I see.

I knew you would fail to engage in debate and fail to address my points.

So, let's play it your way then shall we? Drag it down a bit? Eh?


You are totally blinkered by and trapped within a nationalist political ideology that ignores the reality of travails of the the poor in iother countries.

You are a complete idiot and a fucking tosser.

There's no point in engaging with you.

So fuck off, you BNP cunt!



Woof

What a great brain you have...Im a Nationalist am i now....Yeah brilliant thinking......

 

[tbaldwin]

Hang on a minute in the UK we have reports suggesting that there are not enough training places for Doctors (those that are left might have to emigrate), nurses are being made redundant and many teachers are employed on temporary contracts. Manufacturing industry is at a historical low. So where are these skilled immigrants from poor nations going to be employed?

People starve from poor nations losing Doctors, teachers and engineers to richer nations? How does that work?

Why would the UK increase training places for doctors and nurses when its so much cheaper to take them from the phillipines,south africa etc.
People starve and die in the devloping world because we have plundered the resources of those countries and this continues with us taking the people they need most.

 

[audiotech]

Why would the UK increase training places for doctors and nurses when its so much cheaper to take them from the phillipines,south africa etc.
People starve and die in the devloping world because we have plundered the resources of those countries and this continues with us taking the people they need most.

Is it cheaper though? I thought Doctors from overseas had to train here as their medical qualifications are not transferrable?

Mineral resources are plundered not food. People starve from lack of nutrition and not through other people migrating.

 

[tbaldwin]

Is it cheaper though? I thought Doctors from overseas had to train here as their medical qualifications are not transferrable?

Mineral resources are plundered not food. People starve from lack of nutrition and not through other people migrating.

If it wasnt cheaper it wouldnt happen.

Countries development is held back by a lack of skilled workers.

 

[audiotech]

If it wasnt cheaper it wouldnt happen.

Countries development is held back by a lack of skilled workers.

On completion of their training, many doctors returned home to practice.

"A lot of new, budding doctors enthusiastically seek to complete their training in Britain because of the opportunity to support the NHS - and the knowledge they can then take to their practices in their home countries," said Dr Ramesh Mehta of Bapio.

Because of rule changes many will now return home with debt but no diploma, no qualifications.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4928954.stm

The changes mean that all doctors and dentists who wish to work in the UK from outside the European Union will need to meet the requirements of an employment category, such as the work permit provisions.

As for cheap:

Having spent several thousand pounds towards PLAB fee, international travel and local subsistence in the UK, doctors who have been unsuccessful in securing a job for several months borrow money and eventually get into debts.

Training a doctor requires a huge investment, both from the doctor and from the taxpayer. If poor workforce planning means they don't get the opportunity to practise, that's a terrible waste. It's time we were more honest with overseas doctors about the jobs market the UK. While the NHS is reliant on international recruitment to fill senior posts, at the junior level the same opportunities simply don't exist.

http://www.nhsemployers.org/workforce/workforce-718.cfm

 

[Jessiedog]

S'funny really.

Earlier in the thread, someone was suggesting that immigration should be curtailed since it may:

a) Inflame the fash, and:

b) Push the white "working class" (in its "ignorance",) towards the BNP.

Seems to me, that in order to preempt this potentiality, others on this thread have already swallowed the BNP propaganda - hook, line and sinker.



Shame!



No fucking platform!!!





Woof

 

[tbaldwin]

MC5 the Uk should be training its own doctors and nurses and stop poaching from poorer countries. Young people are not encouraged to look at the NHS for jobs and it seems most UK doctors are super posh....

 

[audiotech]

MC5 the Uk should be training its own doctors and nurses and stop poaching from poorer countries. Young people are not encouraged to look at the NHS for jobs and it seems most UK doctors are super posh....

I suspect a lot of newly qualified Doctors had Doctors in the family.

The point is that in recent times due to shortages of Doctors overseas qualified Doctors have been able to come here and train to specialise (would not have had that opportunity in their own country). Many have took that training back home with them. Many also have sent money back home to assist their families. Now due to a surplus of trained Doctors and the fact of changes in the European labour market they are no longer needed and the rules have been tightened, which means that many return home to debt and nothing.

 

[tbaldwin]

The thing is there are millions of people out of work in the UK,so why is there a Labour shortage in the Health service?
The truth is that millions of people have been written off in the UK and its easier to take skilled workers from aboard.
Its not just me but the World Health organisation and Nelson mandela have spoken out on the UK poaching health workers.

 

[audiotech]

The thing is there are millions of people out of work in the UK,so why is there a Labour shortage in the Health service?

Economics of the market.

The truth is that millions of people have been written off in the UK and its easier to take skilled workers from aboard.
Its not just me but the World Health organisation and Nelson mandela have spoken out on the UK poaching health workers.

I would be interested in any links you have with regards to the WHO and Mandela statements.

Yes, people have been written off in the UK and most of the world come to that. You might be right in asserting that it's "easier" (economically) to take skilled workers from abroad, than say retraining fifty year old men (who worked in manufacturing), but that's the reality of an economy which is market driven and based on production for productions sake.

I'm thinking outside the box here and suggest that your local-ism, most of the time, ignores this fundamental and you end up in some parochial back water (ideologically speaking) vying on who can be most tough on immigrants with capitalist parties, including the BNP?

 

[tbaldwin]

MC5 i understand the assumption about vying to be tougher on immigrants but what can i say its not what motivates my views....
Sorry i dont have a link to any threads on WHO or Nelson Mandela,i wouldnt know how to get hold of that info now.
As for the 50 year olds example i can think of loads of young people in their teens and twenties that i know that have been written off too and this is in London..

 

[durruti02]

S'funny really.

Earlier in the thread, someone was suggesting that immigration should be curtailed since it may:

a) Inflame the fash, and:

b) Push the white "working class" (in its "ignorance",) towards the BNP.

Seems to me, that in order to preempt this potentiality, others on this thread have already swallowed the BNP propaganda - hook, line and sinker.



Shame!



No fucking platform!!!





Woof

your no platform has been very successfull .. idiot

 

[audiotech]

MC5 i understand the assumption about vying to be tougher on immigrants but what can i say its not what motivates my views....
Sorry i dont have a link to any threads on WHO or Nelson Mandela,i wouldnt know how to get hold of that info now.
As for the 50 year olds example i can think of loads of young people in their teens and twenties that i know that have been written off too and this is in London..

I feel you get carried away sometimes by your own radicalism. There are no shortcuts.

 

[tbaldwin]

I feel you get carried away sometimes by your own radicalism. There are no shortcuts.

I get carried away sometimes its true....... But i dont know what you mean by shortcuts?

 

[audiotech]

I get carried away sometimes its true....... But i dont know what you mean by shortcuts?

The populist sort.

 

[tbaldwin]

The populist sort.

I dont think you can be a Socialist if you see populism as some kind of dirty word. Socialism to me should be about giving voice to the views and aspirations of the majority.

 

[audiotech]

I dont think you can be a Socialist if you see populism as some kind of dirty word. Socialism to me should be about giving voice to the views and aspirations of the majority.

Populism is a way to rally a crowd and rarely in the interest of the majority. It's usually driven by divisive rhetoric.

 

[mk12]

Respect?

 

[tbaldwin]

Well at least im not very populist with the people on Urban75!!!!
But i cant see how you can be anti populist and a socialist....There might be occasions when you should go against the crowd but surely the logical opposite to populism is some kind of elitism...Not my idea of Socialism...

 

[mk12]

I don't think populism=socialism. Populism implies leaders and politicians saying things in order to win over a substantial section of the population.

Socialism is not about following leaders and politicians - its about directly controlling and managing society, not following and placing your faith in leaders.

 

[durruti02]

Respect?

LOLROF!!!

 

[Jessiedog]

your no platform has been very successfull .. idiot

But not as successful as your appeasement. Twat!



Woof

 

[Jessiedog]

Its not just me but the World Health organisation and Nelson mandela have spoken out on the UK poaching health workers.

Sorry i dont have a link to any threads on WHO or Nelson Mandela

Heh!



Woof