Immigration for economic reasons
- Thread starter snorbury
- Start date
tbaldwin said:
Well, how's about you learn to explain yourself properly you numpty. You're obviously not doing very well.
And besides, speaking as someone who's family was hugely affected by my great grandfather going as an indentured labourer from China to Guyana, I suspect I know more about 'economic slavery' than you ever will.
tarannau. I'm not too sure you dont just want to interpret every post i do to confirm your view that im an ignorant bigot etc........
The point of trickle down economics and the arguements that "Its OK that we take skilled workers from poorer countries,cost they send some money home" I thought was well known to anyone with a passing interest. Its always been a thoroughly shite arguement.
The point of trickle down economics and the arguements that "Its OK that we take skilled workers from poorer countries,cost they send some money home" I thought was well known to anyone with a passing interest. Its always been a thoroughly shite arguement.
tbaldwin said:
To whom has it always been a thoroughly shite argument? I know whole families who are supported by one UK wage earner. My family did much the same for years and have paid their dues to the UK many times over.
You honestly think if the borders were closed then everything would be better, that the world would suddenly gain stability and equality. I suppose you think countries will start becomining self sufficient again and pay fair prices for raw materials, avoiding any conflicts. Cloud cuckoo-land.
How dare people go where the opportunities and money are eh. They should know their place, so that the 'developed countries' can pull up the drawbridge and stop others capitalising on the wealth the UK and others have extracted from elsewhere.
tarannau said:
Pull up the drawbridge indeed..... Is that how you want to interpret what im saying what shit.....
Im arguing that we need to support not hinder the development of poorer countries... And your arguement is the INDIVIDUALIST one... That we cant stop people having opportunities. Its what the right always use..
But Rights for one person that can impact so negativelly on others need to be questioned.
As i do that you try to make out that i am some unreconstructed bigot....I wonder why that is?
Crazy_diamond
New Member
But what you are saying is “people don’t or shouldn’t have a choice” that is the flip side of what you are saying.tbaldwin said:
Why shouldn’t a doctor from the 3rd world be allowed to choose to come to the UK to support his or her family, why is it that you have the choice but they can’t?
I am totally opposed to working-class immigration as the only people who suffer from it are the working-class of the country where they move to, the results of this are clear for everyone to see in the current pressure on wages, housing, healthcare, schools and the like.
There is a clear distinction in what I am saying between class and race and I see many working-class people now using this argument and it kind of fucks up the Liberals who always shouted Racist at anyone who was opposed to immigration, but what can they shout now? Race has no place in any debate about immigration as race isn’t an issue when dealing with an enlarged Europe.
I just don’t understand how it can be better for a doctor, nurse, teacher, engineer or the like to stay in a country where they can do no good as they don’t have the tools they need to do their job, when they can come here, learn more, improve their skills in many cases and support their children and extended family and pay for many things they couldn’t afford if they remained in their homeland.
You seem to just dismiss “them sending money home” as if I isn’t important, well let me tell you something, EpicureanNo1 lives next door to me and he is Brazilian and I can tell you as a matter of fact that the money he and his partner send home pays for the homes for 2 sets of Grandparents (if you can’t pay your rent when you are old you are jus put out to the street, no government housing benefit).
It is helping to pay for 3 university students, because of this money 6 children under the age of 12 can go to school instead of having to go to work and also pays all the bills for his ex partner and their children, so it is very important and should not be dismissed by someone who has lived all their life with Social security, free health care, free schools and the like.
Its easy for you to just dismiss these things when you have no idea of the end result for many families.
CD good post i thought.
But obviously i disagree with a lot of it. The arguement is not that we should have qualified doctors in Africa twiddling their thumbs instead of working here. The arguement is that health services need funding and they need staff! In some countries like South Africa there is a terrible shortage of staff,despite them training quite a few. Because people go where the money is. And no i dont blame them. But Nelson Mandela and the World Health organisation pointed out about richer countries taking Nurses and Doctors from poorer ones has a terrible effect.
Just taking a lucky few people out of poverty stricken countries is not any kind of Socialist answer to the vast inequalities of the world.
What epicure does is great. But what the other Brazilians that are not so fortunate to have people to send money home?
But obviously i disagree with a lot of it. The arguement is not that we should have qualified doctors in Africa twiddling their thumbs instead of working here. The arguement is that health services need funding and they need staff! In some countries like South Africa there is a terrible shortage of staff,despite them training quite a few. Because people go where the money is. And no i dont blame them. But Nelson Mandela and the World Health organisation pointed out about richer countries taking Nurses and Doctors from poorer ones has a terrible effect.
Just taking a lucky few people out of poverty stricken countries is not any kind of Socialist answer to the vast inequalities of the world.
What epicure does is great. But what the other Brazilians that are not so fortunate to have people to send money home?
Xipe Totec
Drexciyan
Freedom of movement is a wonderful thing.
In an ideal world no barriers to migration would exist.
But unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.
There are hude differences in wealth and quality of life between First and Third World.
This, combined with the sheer number of global poor, means completely opening the Wests borders would be ill-advised.
This means deportations of economic migrants and refugees.
Nasty and perverse, but for the moment a necessary evil.
More broadly though, we are living in a globalised economic sytem, and that will not change.
Advocating economic and cultural isolation is futile.
Of course, there are many problems in the world associated with this sytem.
However a global economy is simply a natural progression and is nothing to fear.
The problems lie in its operation.
What is required is a corresponding global government.
A world government, representative, democratic and with a global social welfare system, is the only way to overcome the myriad of worldly obstacles we face.
In an ideal world no barriers to migration would exist.
But unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.
There are hude differences in wealth and quality of life between First and Third World.
This, combined with the sheer number of global poor, means completely opening the Wests borders would be ill-advised.
This means deportations of economic migrants and refugees.
Nasty and perverse, but for the moment a necessary evil.
More broadly though, we are living in a globalised economic sytem, and that will not change.
Advocating economic and cultural isolation is futile.
Of course, there are many problems in the world associated with this sytem.
However a global economy is simply a natural progression and is nothing to fear.
The problems lie in its operation.
What is required is a corresponding global government.
A world government, representative, democratic and with a global social welfare system, is the only way to overcome the myriad of worldly obstacles we face.
Crazy_diamond
New Member
Not for this thread I suspecttbaldwin said:
Xipe Totec said:
I agree with most of that, but I think that you have to seperate economic migrants from refugees. The situation in the UK at moment where refugees, or assylum seekers and thier families can have their benefits taken from them, are denied the right to work and be arrested, detained and deported to their deaths is sickening.
Non British nationals are treated as 2nd class human beings in this country, that includes economic migrants who are often treatd as slaves. Like the young women who are forced in to prostitution and those who are working in illegaly bad conditions in back room swet shops.
I think an amnesty for all illegal (economic or otherwise) immigrants, giving them entitlement to the benefits and rights of British workers would not only help eleviate the human suffering caused by oppresive government policies but would put them on a level peg with British workers, and so make it more difficult to the bosses to use immigrants to push down living standards for all workers. That would involve TU organisation and political organisation between immigrants and British workers on the basis of a common class interest.
Sounds utopian when your up against the Right Wing press barons and a political culture of right wing poplarism but I think it's the only way forward for "the left" on this issue right now
Here's the problem: there's only a certain amount of labour required, and if you allow capital a free hand to import the cheapest labour from wherever it likes, then the total amount of capital passing from the capitalists to the workers (wherever they're from) is going to be substantially less. Maybe the foreign workers can exploit the comparative cheapness of goods and services in their home country for a while, but at the same time they push people out of work who have no choice but to live in comparatively expensive places like the UK, and ultimately they'll also push up the prices in their home country for people who have no choice but to work where they live. So whilst you might provide a short-term 'opportunity' for a few workers (who are in most cases not the most badly-off in their home country anyway), the long-term result is less money, more misery for working people as a whole.
I can't understand why that's something that you want to encourage
I can't understand why that's something that you want to encourage
I'll return when I have the time.
In the meantime, peeps may want to take a look at these photos.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/06/world_manila_slum_life/html/1.stm
Woof
In the meantime, peeps may want to take a look at these photos.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/06/world_manila_slum_life/html/1.stm
Woof
Jessiedog said:Let them go to the UK, continental Europe, USA, etc. Of course.
Woof
What all of them!!!! Maybe we could just turn the world upside down and get all the poor people to come and live in the cold and the rich could go and live in the sun... Great idea....You an ex pat by any chance?
Crazy_diamond
New Member
As far as I’m concerned as many as can get here and get in can come as I’m leaving to give them more spacetbaldwin said:
I’d rather they didn’t just let anyone in as I believe that working-class immigration is a bad thing for the working-class of the UK, but as I see no grass routes movement to stop it here is little I can do.I have to say I can see no reason for me and my children staying n the UK, I was lucky enough to have been in the UK while house prices went up and I can see no point in staying here as I believe my family can have a better life elsewhere.
While I have little interest in money I understand that I need it to live and I decided years ago that I would work for myself and no-one else and had a little success and managed to buy a house and put some money away.
I have worked in the UK for over 30 years and have an average standard of living, but things in the UK are just getting to expensive, I can leave the UK and buy a nice house by the beach and never have to work again, why would I want to stay in the UK?
All it has taken me is 6 months to be able to learn enough of the language to get by where I am going and by the time I move there I would hope to be almost fluent (or as fluent a one can be without living in the environment, I also have family connection there so it should be easy to fit in).
Day to day living is very cheap, I can live very well for much less than £10,000 p.a. and as when I’m not working I’m socialising, so life will be very easy as eating out, drinking and smoking are all very cheap.
When I look at the life of many old people in the UK I don’t want that sort of life, I think it is an outrage that many people who have worked in the UK all their lives are living their retirement in relative poverty and many of them were in the war and deserve better than to sit in a cold house because they can’t afford the gas bill or can’t afford to keep a pet anymore because of the cost, its obscene.
Tell me why I should stay in the UK? What is here for people that they can't get better and cheaper elsewhere (even in the developing world you can buy in education and health-care that is as good if not better than what is offered by the state here)
I'm not telling you, you should live in the UK. What choices you make are up to you and i cant blame anyone for moving if they think they and their family will have a better life.
But. Migration is a political subject and the rights of individuals has to be balanced with the consequences of wider society.
And in my view the rights of a few individuals to "go wherever they want to live" can not outweigh the consequences for the rest of the world.
But. Migration is a political subject and the rights of individuals has to be balanced with the consequences of wider society.
And in my view the rights of a few individuals to "go wherever they want to live" can not outweigh the consequences for the rest of the world.
Crazy_diamond
New Member
But the bit in bold contradicts your last sentence doesn’t it?tbaldwin said:
Crazy_diamond said:
It's not a contradiction. Its a recognition that on one hand you can hardly blame people for wanting to do the best for themselves and on the other govt policies should reflect whats in the best interests of the majority of the people. Not just a fortunate few.
If i was a Doctor faced with a choice of working in Kenya say for a much smaller salary or in the US or UK for a much bigger salary. Few would criticise me for taking the money BUT if i was a Kenyan in need of a Doctor and found they had all gone where the money was i might be a bit pissed off.
Individual choice when it has such a huge effect on others has to be curtailed. All the time people have choices like that of Doctors you cant blame them as Individuals but you can blame the system that allows and encourages the plundering of skilled workers from poorer countries.
Crazy_diamond
New Member
I see what you mean, I think you put far too much belief in Governments working for what is best and maybe that is where we differ.tbaldwin said:
I can’t think of any radical Government policy in my life-time and the Government is always playing “catch up” they have shown over 40 years that they are unable to run Education, health care and much of the public sector work is very poor.
Lets look at what has happened in the real world, hospitals have just become places to manage people through the system meeting targets, schools have become places to manage pupils through the system and provide more support to teachers nowadays than they do for students, this is just two example of what I am getting away from.
I think the people of the UK have forgotten that Politicians are there to serve the public but all the new legislation seems to have more to do with controlling the people than it does to make their live better.
If and when you get a Government that does what you believe is there job maybe I’ll take a different view, but as far as I can see the government hasn’t done anything for me or my family and are more of a problem than a solution.
Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, you are as usual, driven by ideology and are trying to stuff the whole world into your predetermined conception of how it should be.tbaldwin said:
Again unfortunately, this leaves you blinkered and unable to appreciate any paradigm that conflicts with your own ideology, never mind whether said paradigm may better reflect the pragmatic reality.
You claim to be interested in in the working classes, the poor. You are not. You are only interested in the British working classes/poor.
You are a nationalist.
Your ideas for supporting those outside of the UK are total and utter nonsense - lip service. Your admonishments mean absolutely nothing to the poor of other nations - they are completely worthless, worse, they are a part of the problem.
You condemn the really poor to crushing conditions in order to protect the relatively wealthy "poor" of your own country.
You are a nationalist, driven by an ideology that serves to keep those living in real poverty exactly where they are.
If you had your way, the nine million Philippine overseas workers would be returned to their country.
Returned to this.....
And to this.....
You would see them scavenging on massive rubbish dumps to find enough rotten scraps to feed their families.
You would see millions starving to death, simply because of some stupid, fucked up, fucking "ideology" that drives you to believe how things "should" be and ignore the realities facing the real poor.
You really, really don't have a fucking clue, do you?
Your exclusionist mentality is blinkered, selfish, nationalistic, revolting and entirely divorced from any grounding in the "real world" of the real poor.
You care nought if millions starve, just so long as your fellow countrymen are doing fine.
You are a narrow minded, blind, fool tbaldwin.
I'll not bother wasting my time with you any more, you obviously don't like "foreigners".
But then that's to be expected - you're a nationalist.
Woof
Jessie dog even by Urban75 standards you realy are a stupid stuck up twat....
"Let them eat cake" you really must be a reincarnation of Marie Antoinette...
What an excellent solution to world poverty..."Why dont we just let the clever ones go anywhere they want"! Fantastic stuff......
"Let them eat cake" you really must be a reincarnation of Marie Antoinette...
What an excellent solution to world poverty..."Why dont we just let the clever ones go anywhere they want"! Fantastic stuff......
Why not deal with the points, if you're still here? If you can. But I doubt it.tbaldwin said:
And as previously noted, I'm probably wasting my time, methinks. For it seems patently obvious that you, friend, are living in La-La Doobie-Doobie Da-Da Land. Completely blinded by ideology.
Oh well, I suppose if you actually like madly flailing around while, at the same time, wilfully refusing to extract your head from your own arse, then there's little we can do.
As you were.....
Woof
Jessiedog said:Why not deal with the points, if you're still here? If you can. But I doubt it.
And as previously noted, I'm probably wasting my time, methinks. For it seems patently obvious that you, friend, are living in La-La Doobie-Doobie Da-Da Land. Completely blinded by ideology.
Oh well, I suppose if you actually like madly flailing around while, at the same time, wilfully refusing to extract your head from your own arse, then there's little we can do.
As you were.....
Woof
Er what points do you want me to deal with?
Jessiedog said:Hahahaha.
The Philippines, for example, among others?
Post # 112?
There're quite a few points in there, in between the sarcasm.
Woof
trouble is with your arguement it is all 'pity the poor poor man' ..
IF you actually want to get rid of the system that creates such poverty and its extremes you can't just moan/chant about it .. you have to organise .. and where you live and work .. and that will mean defending the rights of the workers/people in that country .. and building movements that can actually challenge these extremes and the whole system ..
this is not nationalism .. it is common sense ..
and powerless workers can NOT be and are NOT internationalist ..
dennisr
the acceptable face
durruti02 said:
don't know about the poor man, and given up interest in the threads you keep bumping. But I am beginning to wonder about your obsession with the 'immigration exposes the left' arguement. For christ's sake durruti, any valid points you did have are getting a bit lost in the repetative tedium of it all now.
if you are so concened for the native working man and woman - how about doing something about thier situation rather than going on and on and on about the 'threat' from immigrants as if its the only bloody issue. Frankly, my friends and workmates have got a lot more 'issues' affecting them than immigration (although you would not believe that if you trusted either the media, government or your endlessly regurgitated threads).
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