Immigration for economic reasons
- Thread starter snorbury
- Start date
No it's not a "ridiculous" idea and no it wouldn't create "poverty the world over". That's nonsense.Fong said:
Open borders in the UK would improve the lives of the (so you say,) 5, 10, 15 million peeps arriving - they wouldn't come otherwise.
You can "talk about" improving conditions in other countries, but opening the UK's borders would do far more for the peeps living there than "talk".
The Philippines has more than 10% of its entire population working overseas. Home remittences are the countries largest source of external income. Millions of people would probably (literally) starve were it not for these remittences.
Woof
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Working Class Benefits
Immigrations allowed those people who went off and built "The Empire" to amass large sums of wedge and ne loneger be working class
The spineless hsits who stayed at home, well, their decsedants dont deserve fuck all, snivelling shits who want the govt to provide all
Utter cunts the lot o em
They deserve competition from those that were enslaved by their neighbours, ie right next fucking door, coming in and showing them what used to be the normal way of behaviour here
Working class?
You stupid twats, the Communards laughed at that Marx cunt
Immigrations allowed those people who went off and built "The Empire" to amass large sums of wedge and ne loneger be working class
The spineless hsits who stayed at home, well, their decsedants dont deserve fuck all, snivelling shits who want the govt to provide all
Utter cunts the lot o em
They deserve competition from those that were enslaved by their neighbours, ie right next fucking door, coming in and showing them what used to be the normal way of behaviour here
Working class?
You stupid twats, the Communards laughed at that Marx cunt
Jessiedog said:Maybe, but your "wanting to see a better deal", does absolutely nothing to help those Chinese living in abject poverty.
Opening the UK borders, on the other hand, would make a significant difference to them.
Lipservice doesn't feed families.
Woof
What utter shit... Taking skilled workers has a negative effect on developing countries.
Opening the borders to the Chinese!!!! What a brilliant idea!!!! How many do you think would like to come? Would it just be a minority of their skilled workers or maybe 200 Million?
What fucking nonsense.......People who favour Open Borders have clearly not given the thought of the Humanitarian disaster it would lead to much thought.
Open borders Is Survival of the Fittest politics.
Fascist shit.
Who said anything about skilled workers? Not me.tbaldwin said:
Skilled workers can get into the UK already. I doubt more than a few million others would arrive over a few years.
I don't see how it could be a disaster for those entering the UK. Indeed, it is immigration restrictions that create disasters (remember the cockle pickers?).
Call it what you like. The UK is a very wealthy country and can afford to allow far greater immigration.
You called yourself an internationalist. You're not. You're a nationalist.
Woof
Jessiedog said:You called yourself an internationalist. You're not. You're a nationalist.
Woof
Utter shit again....I am arguing that Economic migration has dire consequences INTERNATIONALLY. I am also arguing against Fascistic Survival of the Fittest type shit from people who are Pro Immigration.
The cockle pickers died making someone else rich. Open borders would do nothing to stop such disasters and would mean there were far more.
Competition would drive down wages further and the Black economy would grow and grow.
Nope.tbaldwin said:
The cockle pickers died because they were illegal, outside of the safeguards of the mainstream economy and controlled by criminals.
And you might complain about what happens, but Chinese workers with access to the UK would not.
You seem to be willing to condemn Chinese workers to years of misery in order to maintain the privileged position of those in the UK.
That's nationalist. And selfish.
Woof
Jessiedog said:Nope.
The cockle pickers died because they were illegal, outside of the safeguards of the mainstream economy and controlled by criminals.
And you might complain about what happens, but Chinese workers with access to the UK would not.
You seem to be willing to condemn Chinese workers to years of misery in order to maintain the privileged position of those in the UK.
That's nationalist. And selfish.
Woof
What Liberal bullshit.......I am for improving the rights and conditions of workers Internationally not just those who choose to Migrate....
There is NOTHING Nationalist about my views they are based on what i see as the differing consequences for different classes and poorer countries.
I am not arguing that it against the National interests.
The interests of people with cleaners and nannies who send their kids to private schools etc is not the same as people competing for Jobs and Housing.
You really havent given this issue any serious thought...
I wouldn't call myself a nationalist, as I have spent almost 10 years of my life organising politically with refuggees and swimming aginst the tide of anti-immigration popularism I would'nt call myself anti migrant.
But I agree with Tbaldwin, an open boarders policy would be an absoluste disaster.
I can imagine all the scum of British society taking to the streets with their anti imigrant message and many ordinary people who are simply concerned about how mass migration effects their position in society feeling inclined to follow them, in the event of an open borders policy in Britian.
Simple fact is immigrant labour is used to drive down wages on the one hand. On the other politicans use immigrants as scapegoats for underfunded public services and housing. An open boarders policy would make the current situation 1000 times worse.
I think that union organistion amoungst immigrant workers, an amnsesty for illegal immigrants already here and on going offorts to oust the BNP from our communities on the basis of opposing lab/tory/libdem policies from a working class, not a nationalistic perspective is the way forward. Not an open boarders policy.
But I agree with Tbaldwin, an open boarders policy would be an absoluste disaster.
I can imagine all the scum of British society taking to the streets with their anti imigrant message and many ordinary people who are simply concerned about how mass migration effects their position in society feeling inclined to follow them, in the event of an open borders policy in Britian.
Simple fact is immigrant labour is used to drive down wages on the one hand. On the other politicans use immigrants as scapegoats for underfunded public services and housing. An open boarders policy would make the current situation 1000 times worse.
I think that union organistion amoungst immigrant workers, an amnsesty for illegal immigrants already here and on going offorts to oust the BNP from our communities on the basis of opposing lab/tory/libdem policies from a working class, not a nationalistic perspective is the way forward. Not an open boarders policy.
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Patty said:
Real open borders policy will be implemented by workers internationally. However, I noticed in the press today a report on NHS Doctors who will not be able to pursue work in the UK because of the financial shortfalls within hospital trusts. Many Doctors are now seeking employment overseas and the talk is of a "brain drain". A disaster? Seems that way. Open borders have anything to do with it? No.
You refer to those with an anti-immigrant message as "scum of British society". Not many are likely to take to the streets btw and no one will be following them anywhere. The situation couldn't get any "worse" than it is now.
Open borders is not on the agenda. Internationalism is.
No you're not.tbaldwin said:
Sitting on the internet typing does absolutely NOTHING to help the poor in China. Allowing them to come to the UK and work (in the jobs that most Brits don't want,) would help them immensely.
Your concerns are entirely predicated upon the fate of UK workers - that's nationalist.
Again, your focus is entirely upon the needs of your countryfolk - nationalist.
Errrrrr....
Yes I have.
Woof
Disaster for whom?Patty said:
Certainly not for those poor Chinese workers who would LOVE to be able to enjoy the kind of wages they could achieve in the UK - a King's ransom compared to anything available at home.
As long as participants stay within the law, I understand that peaceful demonstrations are permitted in the UK.
It is a connundrum, but at the end of the day, as I've mentioned, poor Chinese immigrants would have no complaints about their wages.
Further, it would be possible to exclude new immigrants from receiving certain public funds, housing and services. Most would be happy to live in dorms.
Sounds good!
But why then still assert.....
Why not?
It would be of HUGE benefit to poor Chinese peeps.
Think of those less well off fer fucks sake.
Woof
Jessiedog said:No you're not.
Sitting on the internet typing does absolutely NOTHING to help the poor in China. Allowing them to come to the UK and work (in the jobs that most Brits don't want,) would help them immensely.
Your concerns are entirely predicated upon the fate of UK workers - that's nationalist.
Again, your focus is entirely upon the needs of your countryfolk - nationalist.
Errrrrr....
Yes I have.
Crikey what a load of shite....
Taking skilled workers from poorer countries is doing them a favour according to you!!!! But what about the people LEFT BEHIND?
You confuse Class interest with National Interest,which just makes you look a proper twat.
Plundering the developing world of skilled workers is hardly going to help their development is it?????????
You really show no understanding of the issue at all.
Look at how Economic Migration effects poorer countries. Arguing that it benefits a few individuals etc maybe true but at what cost?
The question needs to be asked, would it be such a help for Chinese workers to be able to come to Britian without any constraints? Are there the jobs in the UK economy to sustain the billions of Chineese people? It's a crackpot idea to think that all their woes would be solved by open boarders.
And as for the scum of British society taking to the streets, Jessydog. You obviosly havent had any run ins with the far right have you! I mean the violence, rise in racist attacks and the damage that they can do when they get sympathy in a working class community.
If you want open boarders I suggest you spend a little time on the sharp end of a casualised, immigrant aided economy that provides little job security for anyone and low wages for all. I also suggest you try mixing it with the BNP for a bit, see how law abiding these people are.
And as for the scum of British society taking to the streets, Jessydog. You obviosly havent had any run ins with the far right have you! I mean the violence, rise in racist attacks and the damage that they can do when they get sympathy in a working class community.
If you want open boarders I suggest you spend a little time on the sharp end of a casualised, immigrant aided economy that provides little job security for anyone and low wages for all. I also suggest you try mixing it with the BNP for a bit, see how law abiding these people are.
If you'd care to re-read the thread, you will note that I've never referred to skilled workers. There's only you twittering on about that on your own.tbaldwin said:
Jessiedog @ Post # 69 said:
Aye!tbaldwin said:
You care little for them either.
No. You confuse interest in the welfare of those in the UK with an interest in the welfare of those in China. You have the former, not the latter - nationalist.
Ho Hum.
Have you read my posts?
I'm not suggesting that having 9,000,000 (predominately) mothers away from their children for years on end is a good thing. I'm suggesting that without the opportunity to do so, the situation would be far, far worse in the country.Jessiedog @ Post # 62 said:
If you'd stop screaming for a minute and step outside your rigid, ideologically-driven thinking, you may at least be able to read my posts clearly.
Woof
Hi again Patty.Patty said:
Yes. It would be GREAT for Chinese to be allowed to live and work in the UK without restriction - a dream come true. I have NO doubt that anyone arriving would be happy to sign a declaration waiving any right to receive any financing, benefits, welfare, healthcare or housing, from the public purse.
If there were no jobs, they wouldn't come. But if there were jobs, it would definately solve many woes. Each worker in the UK, could support an extended community of at least 20 peeps back home AND save some for the future too.
Your point about the fash is well taken though. I first encountered NF cunts in the mid 1970's, it helped shape my identity. I think the UK has a problem in not dealing effectively with violent crime, but that's prolly another thread. I don't believe that's a good enough reason to argue for barring Chinese from the UK though.
Trust me, I've experienced many casualised, immigrant-aided economies - probably more than you - I'm simply pointing out and emphasising the benefits that acrue to the immigrants.
The fash are a different issue. Personally, I'd let all drug offenders out of jail immediately, decriminalise illegal drugs and quadruple sentences for violent crime - with a minimum of four years served for a first offence and eight for a second. I reckon it would have an impact fairly soon.
Woof
Jessiedog said:On the basis that you want to exlude them from the party.
Woof
Party????
I want people in the developing countries to be given a chance of a better life. By that i mean not just those who can migrate but ALL the people.
What your proposing means leaving billions behind in poorer countries without the people they need most. Skilled workers who lets face it are the most likely to leave.
There needs to be some serious thought given to Internationalism and people putting pressure on govts and multinationals to improve pay and condition in developing countries and the skilled worker drain from African and Asian countries has to be stopped.
The free market may work splendidly for the haves but there are many more suffering from the consequences of widespread economic migration.
It is a major part of why so many people continue to die from preventable diseases across the world.
Jessiedog said:Hi again Patty.
Yes. It would be GREAT for Chinese to be allowed to live and work in the UK without restriction - a dream come true. I have NO doubt that anyone arriving would be happy to sign a declaration waiving any right to receive any financing, benefits, welfare, healthcare or housing, from the public purse.
If there were no jobs, they wouldn't come. But if there were jobs, it would definately solve many woes. Each worker in the UK, could support an extended community of at least 20 peeps back home AND save some for the future too.
Your point about the fash is well taken though. I first encountered NF cunts in the mid 1970's, it helped shape my identity. I think the UK has a problem in not dealing effectively with violent crime, but that's prolly another thread. I don't believe that's a good enough reason to argue for barring Chinese from the UK though.
Trust me, I've experienced many casualised, immigrant-aided economies - probably more than you - I'm simply pointing out and emphasising the benefits that acrue to the immigrants.
The fash are a different issue. Personally, I'd let all drug offenders out of jail immediately, decriminalise illegal drugs and quadruple sentences for violent crime - with a minimum of four years served for a first offence and eight for a second. I reckon it would have an impact fairly soon.
Woof
You cant seperate the far right from the immigration issue. When you are proposing to allow a group of people in to a country who would undermine hard faught for employment rights and state benefits and reduce the position of workers in this country to were we were in the 1800's. The far right are already seen by many white working class people as their representatives, an open boarders policy on the basis of a market economy would boost their support to the point where a few lefties working in communities to try and turn things round would make even less difference than at present.
I think that international solidarity, forging links with workers in countries like China, funding their independent organisations and when poss putting pressure on governments and multinationals is the best way use our reletively privilaged possition as western workers.
As for drugs and violent crime, its probly for another thread but to put my 2pence in, free herioine and cocaine for addicts on the NHS would be a start.
Crazy_diamond
New Member
Well I'm doing what it best for my kids and my family as no Government has ever done fuck all for me, This country is fucked, wages are being driven down by cheap imported labour, schools are now places that managed kids through them and if the kids are lucky enough to have parents that see this and can do something about it our but many are not and so the schools are failing those children.tbaldwin said:
Health care is all but gone and depending on where you live often depends on what treatment you'll get.
Housing cost is reaching the scale that many people can now not afford and families are having to split up.
I'm off mate as there is no future in the UK for my kids, I can pay less tax and pay for my children education and healthcare elsewhere and will be doing so with-in 18 months.
I'll get no pension from the UK as it will be worthless by then despite paying in for over 30 years.
I have lived abroad in the past and found that many countries that are considered 3rd world have a better education system, better healthcare system and I will be able to live with my family and not have it split up for purely financial reasons.
I'm leaving the sinking ship as I was born here by accident and thought I lived in a free country but things have change so much and none for the better in my view, this country is still facing many of the problems it has faced for 2 generation ago and no-one has the guts to stand up and fight anymore.
The UK sleepwalking into total state control and the British being British will just let it happen.
You selfish view is what I’m getting away from, it would seem from reading your posts that it is OK for many UK citizens to leave the UK with all their years of fre education and work abroad but if someone from the developing world want to leave their country for a better life elsewhere it is wrong, in your view it is better for a doctor or a nurse to stay in a hospital with no medical supplies or a teacher to stand in a school with no books in the 3rd world than for them to come here and earn a age that can support their extended family back home.
I can’t wait to leave
refugee said:
Totally sure. But are the people arguing for Survival of the Fittest migration policies on safe ground with accusations of playing into the hands of the far right etc.
Hitler himself seemed to think it was rather a good idea to take "Guest workers" from other poorer countries.
GW Bush likes the idea of taking skilled workers from other countries.
Me i see how Economic migartion makes the world a more unequal place and argue against it.
Crazy_diamond said:You selfish view is what I’m getting away from, it would seem from reading your posts that it is OK for many UK citizens to leave the UK with all their years of fre education and work abroad but if someone from the developing world want to leave their country for a better life elsewhere it is wrong, in your view it is better for a doctor or a nurse to stay in a hospital with no medical supplies or a teacher to stand in a school with no books in the 3rd world than for them to come here and earn a age that can support their extended family back home.
I can’t wait to leave
Flippin heck..... Im not in favour of xpats either living it up at the expense of local people or people trained as Doctors going to the US or Australia to earn more money.
So where you get that idea from would come back to your personal prejudice i guess.
As for your ridiculous Thatcherite idea that plundering the third world for skilled workers is OK cos they can send money home...What can i say....Its shit.
tbaldwin said:
You don't half talk a load of half baked shite Balders. Why is it 'Thatcherite' for folks to work elsewhere and send home money? That's been happening for generations and generations, in all sorts of countries. Do you actually think about what you're writing, or is there a kind of 'nonsense button' that you press to conveniently generate this bollocks?
Crazy_diamond
New Member
Spoken like a true Brittbaldwin said:
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