Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...
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Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
socialistsuzy
New Member
that's what was happening anyway, those jobs weren't open to people from the area to apply for, is that not preferential?
the fact, as the guardian amongst others has reported, that the BNP had been driven from the protests and that the slogan 'british jobs for british workers'' was being replaced with 'workers of the world unite' is significant.
and would not necessarily have happened without the intervention of the socialist party, respect etc. who were able to draw out the positives of the strike and channel it in the right direction.
they were bringing in italian labour when there are skilled people in the area how can it be more financially viable for them to ship people in and house them on a barge than employ skilled people in the area? they must have been skimping on wages and conditions. Although this is denied but not proven, in one report i read (can't remember which, there have been so many) a portuguese or italian worker claimed they were earning £1000pm less than the british workforce.
Winning 102 jobs open to locally based people without loss of italian/portuguese jobs and with everyone on the same contracts/pay/conditions and the books open to scruitiny by the trade unions cannot be seen as anything but a massive victory by probably the most powerful section of the british working class,in the energy industry.
Not only that, it did all of this whilst breaking the anti-trade union laws, not waiting for the right-wing trade union leaders to do something. If anything this strike will be inspirational to those moving into struggle over the next period for fighting those laws, taking on the bosses and the government and winning.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
How can this be Xenophobic, Unite negotiated a deal in which the 300 migrant workers kept their jobs?
These arguments seem to be going arounf in circles.
Is'nt time to move in a different direction?
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
You make a lot of good points.
In the end it's a very complicated issue. Should we be surprised? As Marxist's, we talk about contradictory levels of consciousness? This issue has for sure complicated matters.
If at the end of the day the socialist party and respect have played a part in steering the dispute in the direction you suggest, well done! When and if you intervene is always a judgment call. Many people felt the way SW intervened with Muslims against the war, and in respect, was a bridge too far for revolutionaries. If they can ignore the right-wing ideas of Muslims because of the contradictory levels of consciousness, why not ignore the POSSIBLE right-wing ideas in this dispute. I think the current xenophobic atmosphere that pervades Britain may have colored the analysis, but to be honest I don't know what they got up to, whether they intervened or not.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I do think the points I made above, is important, a point that revolutionaries should press.
yup!
I never doubted they would be, why would they want the fascists hijacking their dispute? But the question remains, why would the fascists etc attracted to it?
that's right, they dropped the slogan because in the terms of the bigger picture, in terms of the class struggle, it was not only a bogus, demand but a pole of attraction for the rebid rights
which should be opposed. I believe one union Rep, argued we should employ British workers because they are cheaper.
I was thinking just this morning, I hope it has that effect.
In the end it's a very complicated issue. Should we be surprised? As Marxist's, we talk about contradictory levels of consciousness? This issue has for sure complicated matters.
If at the end of the day the socialist party and respect have played a part in steering the dispute in the direction you suggest, well done! When and if you intervene is always a judgment call. Many people felt the way SW intervened with Muslims against the war, and in respect, was a bridge too far for revolutionaries. If they can ignore the right-wing ideas of Muslims because of the contradictory levels of consciousness, why not ignore the POSSIBLE right-wing ideas in this dispute. I think the current xenophobic atmosphere that pervades Britain may have colored the analysis, but to be honest I don't know what they got up to, whether they intervened or not.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I do think the points I made above, is important, a point that revolutionaries should press.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
it goes round in circles because you for some reason completely misread what I said.How can this be Xenophobic, Unite negotiated a deal in which the 300 migrant workers kept their jobs?
These arguments seem to be going arounf in circles.
Is'nt time to move in a different direction?
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
20 million-members in the International Federation of Chemical, Energy, Mine and General Workers’ Union (ICEM)
I note this from TUC on 24 September 2007:
Initially, two questions:
1) Did UK govt. support the directive yet?
2) Did this initiative include contract workers on sub-contract or sub-sub-contract?
I note this from TUC on 24 September 2007:
Initially, two questions:
1) Did UK govt. support the directive yet?
2) Did this initiative include contract workers on sub-contract or sub-sub-contract?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Take you're point about Xenophobia.
However I get the impression that is what you are implying!
".....The one thing I will say about xenophobia, is regardless of whether the workers were or were not xenophobic, the dispute in the way it has been presented as certainly engendered a great deal of support from the xenophobes. All the fascist bulletin boards are loving it. "
However I get the impression that is what you are implying!
".....The one thing I will say about xenophobia, is regardless of whether the workers were or were not xenophobic, the dispute in the way it has been presented as certainly engendered a great deal of support from the xenophobes. All the fascist bulletin boards are loving it. "
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
The slogans - both of them - Brown's recycled NF/BUF "BJFBW" and the toned-down LJFLW - promote division between the Euro-national workforce.
socialistsuzy
New Member
If fascists are attacted to a dispute i would argue it is even more important for us to intervene with real demands and an alternative (as the socialist party did with a member on the strike committee and all the demand off their leaflet being adopted at a mass meeting as demands of the dispute).
The BNP argue against attacks on the health service etc. doesn't mean we should not comment on these issues. they have even argued for nationalisation, and posture to the left arguing for jobs and homes (then equate that to immigration). The best way of combating the BNP is by taking up these issues and undercut them with real arguments, demands and solutions.
This was shown in these strikes, left to their own devices the BNP may have made inroads amongst a layer of the protests.
But becuase of decisive intervention from the left putting for the real arguments whilst taking up the anger of the workers the BNP had no ground to stand on.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Not as far as I know they didn't.Unite negotiated a deal in which the 300 migrant workers kept their jobs?
I thought those 300 jobs which were going to migrant workers have now been reduced. with 102 jobs going to some of those workers handed 90-day redundancy notices from Shaws shop stewards.
socialistsuzy
New Member
part of the deal is that none of the italian and portuguese workers are laid off they may not work in that refinery but they are still employed by IREM.
Spion
I hear ya
What you say doesn't match what the he Guardian reported - that only 100 posts had so far been taken up by the Italians and the 102 jobs created as a result of the strike will go to British workers rather than to overseas workers as originally planned.
"The proposed deal gives British workers 102 jobs out of a total of 195 on the bulk of the new desulphurisation plant contract, including 67 skilled positions — welders, electricians and platers.
It does not involve any Italian redundancies as only 100 posts have so far gone to the foreign workers based on a hostel barge moored in Grimsby docks.
The British jobs will come from the second tranche, which would almost certainly have gone to Italian staff had the row not erupted. But no contracts have been issued by the Italian subcontractor IREM for the 95 posts still to be filled"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/feb/04/tradeunions
If that's the case it means the strike won the right of British workers to get jobs at the expense of overseas workers does it not?
Or has the Guardian got it wrong? Do you have a source to back up your claim?
ffs LJFLP does NOT promote division .. we are divided already .. LJFLW coupled with trade unionism etc is about making a strong working class that CAN stop that that does divide .. capital
1) tangent .. yes missed mentionning the israeli unions .. and i agree with you on israel and its unions!!!!OK!
( p.s. if there is no thread on the WAC ma'an union coulkd you start one on mid east? )
2) do you not think i understand the ABSOLUTE neccessity of pan european / pan nation state unions?? .. jaysus of course they are fundamental, but i think you put the cart b4 the horse .. at the mo we have feeble weak unions which only cover 30% of workers i think ..
and i accept that there is a danger of wisconsin but actually that danger is not related to local employment but the weakness caused by unemployment ..
and need to understand how important has been the use of migrnat labour in undermining trade unionism
the only task we have at the moment is to rebuild power at the base .. and we will need LJFLP as ONE of our slogans .. if we do not have that,intrinsically coupled with demands for a living wage and union rights then we will get swamped by demands for BJFBP .. which has conatations entirely unrelated to LJFLP ( where i am LJFLP means afro caribean and turkish and kurdish .. on the olympic site it will mean uk asians ) .. it is NOT divisive or racial or xenosphobic or nationalist .. it is about creating the conditions for the power to fundamentally challenge the division that is the basis of capitalism
The truth comes out now:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/31408dc6-f48e-11dd-8e76-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
Lazy gits. I was right - they should have just been fired.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/31408dc6-f48e-11dd-8e76-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
Lazy gits. I was right - they should have just been fired.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
**yuo're too boring even for a drunk friday night**
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
(days) 22,400 / 365
= 61.37 years
= 61.37 years
nightbreed
Im Bored
Found this at Socialist Unity blog. Aparently both Unite and the GMB didnt repudiate the wildcat strikes!!
Bloody right wing bureaucrats!!
6 February, 2009
LINDSEY OIL REFINERY STRIKE SHOWS THE NEED TO SCRAP ANTI-UNION LAWS
Filed under: Unite, strikes, Law, GMB, Trade Unions — Andy Newman @ 5:00 pm
The recent strike at Lindsey Oil Refinery was the result of an unofficial walkout by the workers at the plant in both GMB and Unite. There were consequently a number of solidarity walkouts at a number of other sites around the UK, including UCATT members on some sites.
The important issue to note though is that neither GMB nor Unite repudiated the action and instructed their members to return to work – as they are required to by law.
Indeed Full Time Officials of both GMB and Unite spoke to the press, presenting the strikers case; and I understand offered practical assistance and helped share information between different groups of workers. Although I am told there was some tension between Unite and GMB, as I understand it because GMB national officials were more apprehensive about the likely impact of the “Put British Workers First” slogan.
Both unions therefore stepped outside the strict boundaries of the law; and had either the government or the employers sought to invoke anti-trade union legislation that is on the statute books, there would have been a major collision between the biggest manual unions in the country and the law.
But this dispute also shows the degree to which the law is an ass. Construction workers in those major projects form a relatively close knit community, who work on short to medium term stints at each site before moving on. They always have an eye on where the next job will be; and they have personal relationships that extend to other sites to people they have worked together with on previous projects
So the issue at Lindsey Oil Refinery, and the similar issue at Staythorpe Power Station, of contractors bringing in an entire workforce to replace them, affects every skilled construction worker – regardless of who actually employs them. This is especially so because the workers may work for different sub-contractors, but their real grievance may be with the prime-contractor who has let a sub-contract to a firm employing workers at a lower rate, or outside collective agreements.
In the current dispute, one of the issues is the failure of the Labour government to fully implement Article 3(8) of the Posted Workers Directive, that is designed to prevent employers playing nationalities off against one another. All the workers in the industry have a legitimate industrial greivance with the government over that.
The unions should have been able to ballot every affected worker for a legal strike, regardless of who their employer is. The law needs to be changed.
Bloody right wing bureaucrats!!
6 February, 2009
LINDSEY OIL REFINERY STRIKE SHOWS THE NEED TO SCRAP ANTI-UNION LAWS
Filed under: Unite, strikes, Law, GMB, Trade Unions — Andy Newman @ 5:00 pm
The recent strike at Lindsey Oil Refinery was the result of an unofficial walkout by the workers at the plant in both GMB and Unite. There were consequently a number of solidarity walkouts at a number of other sites around the UK, including UCATT members on some sites.
The important issue to note though is that neither GMB nor Unite repudiated the action and instructed their members to return to work – as they are required to by law.
Indeed Full Time Officials of both GMB and Unite spoke to the press, presenting the strikers case; and I understand offered practical assistance and helped share information between different groups of workers. Although I am told there was some tension between Unite and GMB, as I understand it because GMB national officials were more apprehensive about the likely impact of the “Put British Workers First” slogan.
Both unions therefore stepped outside the strict boundaries of the law; and had either the government or the employers sought to invoke anti-trade union legislation that is on the statute books, there would have been a major collision between the biggest manual unions in the country and the law.
But this dispute also shows the degree to which the law is an ass. Construction workers in those major projects form a relatively close knit community, who work on short to medium term stints at each site before moving on. They always have an eye on where the next job will be; and they have personal relationships that extend to other sites to people they have worked together with on previous projects
So the issue at Lindsey Oil Refinery, and the similar issue at Staythorpe Power Station, of contractors bringing in an entire workforce to replace them, affects every skilled construction worker – regardless of who actually employs them. This is especially so because the workers may work for different sub-contractors, but their real grievance may be with the prime-contractor who has let a sub-contract to a firm employing workers at a lower rate, or outside collective agreements.
In the current dispute, one of the issues is the failure of the Labour government to fully implement Article 3(8) of the Posted Workers Directive, that is designed to prevent employers playing nationalities off against one another. All the workers in the industry have a legitimate industrial greivance with the government over that.
The unions should have been able to ballot every affected worker for a legal strike, regardless of who their employer is. The law needs to be changed.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
snadge
metal alchemist
So you're putting Cypriot supervisors out of work then - bastard
LOL, we are a specialist company, so supervision is always from company payroll.
In UK we use UK based workers always as well.
*packs suntan lotion*
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
If anyone is interested in hearing about the dispute from the inside, there's a public meeting on in Friends Meeting House on Euston Road in London on Friday 13th February at 7 PM.
It's jointly organised by the Socialist Party and Respect and the speakers include Keith Gibson, who was a member of the strike committee at Lindsey, and Jerry Hicks, the left candidate for General Secretary of Amicus.
It's jointly organised by the Socialist Party and Respect and the speakers include Keith Gibson, who was a member of the strike committee at Lindsey, and Jerry Hicks, the left candidate for General Secretary of Amicus.
Since you like orgainsing a solidarity meeting for the xenophobes and little englanders who went on strike, any chance on putting the hat round for Carol Thatcher as well?. Will you be selling Golliwogs in an attempt to redeem them, just as you are trying to redeem the buthers apron which infested the picket lines and fascist slogans like British Jobs for British workers which wer eon the placards?
It will be years before the left will trust you lot again
snadge
metal alchemist
piss off you wankstain and grow up, it is people like you that give capitalists the rope to hang the workers with.
Spiteful, childish twats like you have no place telling us what to do, get yer own house in fucking order before you tell me how to act.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Good. Perhaps now this bubble-wrapped "left" will fuck off and stick to the student politics and "clowns against reality" unicycle protesting that is about all its good for - other than discrediting socialist ideas through ridiculous posturing, that is.
nightbreed
Im Bored
Oh do fuck off!!
dennisr
the acceptable face
it will be a damn sight longer before the working class can trust idiots like you again. go on back to your fantasy anti-fascism jim - with that level of understanding you will be as useful an idiot in countering the bnp as you are countering backward illusions among workers
Spion
I hear ya
Crikey, that's insane. On here? Got a link?
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