Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[ViolentPanda]

stop rubbing your thighs over a 'clash of civilisations'. You and casually red slavering at it.

Thing is, it's an easy and convenient argument, especially if you're used to thinking of international relations as ultimately a matter of blocs with opposed interests.

 

[treelover]

Cologne New Year sex assaults are a wake-up call: all women have the right to feel safe
If we can teach refugees our languages, we should be able to teach them about the importance of equality
Cologne is a wake-up call: all women have the right to feel safe

An article by the feminist writer, Joan Smith, the cultural relativists/intersectionalists will be pondering how to respond.

 

[DotCommunist]

DotCommunist isn't that bad.

I spent six formative years on an estate in Wolverton MK, have I not suffered enough?

 

[Anudder Oik]

'Women are sniggered at, insulted, and find men's hands down their tops and between their legs. Dark corners are dangerous, girls who are drunk and alone are chased and raped. Security and police are nowhere to be seen. Welcome to Oktoberfest, Munich's annual beer saturnalia. The worst, barmaids say, are Brits and Italians.'

'When someone brought up the Oktoberfest parallels, Muslim-haters started a Facebook campaign arguing that, with 5.9 million visitors over a week, "only" 20 women were raped last year.'
Alan Posener (Die Welt correspondent)
Article in todays Observer

'At last year's (Oktoberfest) festival, 6 rapes and 11 other sex attacks were reported. Police estimated that the real rape figure is as high as 120.'
http:www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1442185/Sex-sanctuary-set-up-at-Oktoberfest.html

You cannot use this as a comparison with NYE. Was every single woman who attended oktoberfest penned in and aggressively assualted by large groups of men who then robbed them? With all the other guys standing around and doing nothing about it. That's mad.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

At what frequency of sexual assault per female attendee does such a comparison become invalid?

 

[Pickman's model]

An article by the feminist writer, Joan Smith, the cultural relativists/intersectionalists will be pondering how to respond.

yeh but being as we live in an increasingly unequal society not sure whether refugees/migrants will take on board thr fine words or their everyday observations more.

 

[treelover]

You cannot use this as a comparison with NYE. Was every single woman who attended oktoberfest penned in and aggressively assualted by large groups of men who then robbed them? With all the other guys standing around and doing nothing about it. That's mad.

Many migrants come from countries where women have low status and little legal protection; it is only two years since Morocco repealed a law that allowed rapists of under-age girls to escape prosecution by marrying their victims. I keep hoping that one of the benefits of mass migration into Europe will be an opportunity to empower women and girls, giving them the confidence to demand rights I take for granted.

Lots of people doing moral somersaults here and elsewhere, of course you can't essentialise a whole culture, people are not homegenous, but the fact remains, this horrific series of events happened, on a massive scale, by certain demographics and just because the right will say i told you so, and use it to demonise others, doesn't mean that there are not issues with these groups who committed these heineous crimes.

 

[Anudder Oik]

There's a couple of reactions here, maybe three. One, downplay it like some absurd headbangers have. Other, the rightist crow of 'I told you so' and making hay from it. or a third, frantically line up with the right in their 'culture war' line in order to avoid looking like some total lefty flake. I'm not buying either of them.

(If that docu is about the woman who was raped to death on a bus and the wider problems of eve teasing and misogyny in indian society then I'll save it for a less depressing day)

I don't see rightists on this thread. I do see a left working class perception of reality (without restricting PC filters) clashing with the monopolised middle class leftist perception, which is very heavily filtered. So much so that they have rendered themselves absolutley useless to society.

 

[treelover]

I don't see rightists on this thread. I do see a left working class perception of reality (without restricting PC filters) clashing with the monopolised middle class leftist perception, which is very heavily filtered. So much so that they have rendered themselves absolutley useless to society.

Which is now dominant on the left/liberal left, identity politics trumps all, and issues like disabled people dying here right now as a consequence of benefit sanctions are ignored.

 

[Athos]

You cannot use this as a comparison with NYE. Was every single woman who attended oktoberfest penned in and aggressively assualted by large groups of men who then robbed them? With all the other guys standing around and doing nothing about it. That's mad.

What is is about the modus operandi of these rapes that bothers you so much more than those at Oktoberfest, or indeed all the very, very many other rapes that take place? What happened is shocking, but is it any more shocking?

 

[DotCommunist]

I don't see rightists on this thread. I do see a left working class perception of reality (without restricting PC filters) clashing with the monopolised middle class leftist perception, which is very heavily filtered. So much so that they have rendered themselves absolutley useless to society.

yes the bourgoisie previously played such an important and socially useful role...tell this working class leftist where he's gone wrong? I'll remin you that during Operation Pillar of Cloud against the palestinian people you were loud in your calls that all jews condemn it. You only backed down when shown that the diaspora outnumbers sraeli citizens by many millions. So forgive me if I am a little suspicious of your posts on this matter. You've form for assuming some must take collective responsibility and of trying to make one people one voice.

 

[treelover]

What is is about the modus operandi of these rapes that bothers you so much more than those at Oktoberfest, or indeed all the very, very many other rapes that take place? What happened is shocking, but is it any more shocking?

Ah, witch hunting beginning.

 

[Athos]

Ah, witch hunting beginning.

No, just a genuine question. If you look back, you'll see that, for large parts of this thread, I'be been nearer the role of witch than hunter, myself!

 

[Greebozz]

I'm not convinced that you do.

It's "Grima", and calling people names because they like posts that oppose your puerile arguments is...puerile.

You're a dolt.
You take even the mildest criticism of your posts - some of which are frankly racist bollocks - as being an attack on you, who is only nobly speaking his mind. Here's the thing: Racists have been using that particular manouevre in debate for at least the last 130 years.

There is no "editing" of "reality", just straightforward textual analysis of what you've written. It's not about feeling "heroic" or "noble", it's about not letting someone get away with talking shite.

No-one is asking you to make your posts conditional on reams of clauses and sub-clauses. I am asking you to recognise the most obvious way your posts can be read - the way anyone "neutral" who was otherwise unaware of your output, would read them.

I respect posters who present a decent argument contra my own. I don't respect you because in all the time you've posted here, I've never seen you make a decent argument, just utterly quotidian generalisations - the sort of 6th-form rubbish it's impossible to respect.

Crumbs, I have clearly awakened the kraken

Do excuse the amateur psychology of my previous post. I suppose the thing is I don't recognise the accusation as being me. It does make me very angry to be accused of being a racist. I work with people on the lowest rung of society and I know how appalling the housing situation is, I know the damage of social isolation and also the tension and anxiety of a lot of people in this country about large flows of people. The topic is extremely upsetting and painful on an emotional level.

To be called a racist is a very hurtful insult, it makes me very angry and makes me really utterly loathe the awful liberals set, that humiliates people with the accusation of racism if they raise the topic of immigration.

In my post I don't make arguments, I share my thoughts and try to highlight things of interest. I would urge you to stop being an unappointed policeman seeing as your heroic duty to pounce on any dissent from what you to be the correct way.

I want to have the right for this country to be self interested, why do you assume that any young black man, black woman, person of Asian descent, someone who originated from Pakistan or India would not also be concerned as I am by dwindling social resources being divvied up further amongst more needy people.

I hate trendy causes in which so many people find it easier to have compassion and help those we know nothing about, than to help homeless people we step over on our way to work.

Finally if what I write is terrible, ill-conceived stupid, prejudiced, then is that not self evident? Why do you need to point out. Is it not better to speak freely, exactly how one feels rather than be false and be accused by bullies of being a racist?

If you tell me what I write sounds racist I accept that it sounds racist but I would urge you to stop thinking like that, I'd like all people already in the UK to be more self interested and be very careful to avoid the situation that is happening in Germany.

 

[treelover]

But I also don’t think we should query the accounts of women who say their assailants appeared to be migrants and the attacks were organised. A leaked police report described victims being forced to “run the gauntlet” between ranks of “extremely intoxicated men”.

from Joan Smiths article

The fact that the question of veracity even arrives shows that much of the left, civil society, etc is going down the rabbit hole.

btw, i would like to apologise for posting up the Lara Logan video, I didn't watch the whole of it and thought it was the initial stages(not the attacks) of the events in Cologne, real evidence of the perpetrators, if you will, I would still post up certain videos about Cologne, but will put a warning on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ah, witch hunting beginning.

they found alot of witches in germany, strangely most of the alleged witches women.

 

[bimble]

what a poor job they are doing of such a cover up then. More likely its right wing foghorns pulling out statements from dafties (official dafties or otherwise) in order to go on the 'oh look, we musn't say that, the left would turn their face from this, look they are weak and foolish'. And then getting press coverage.
In the scramble to go 'no I'm not condoning rape or sexual assault! Not like those trotskyists prats (or whoever just an eg)!' you end up with this unedifying spectacle of people lining up to condemn rape like they never have before and earnestly joining in the rights culture war debate. Its a blind alley and you've been led right up it.

I've been led up a blind alley of "earnestly joining in the rights culture war debate" because I keep banging on about how women in some 'cultures' / places in the world are less safe than I am ??


The "cover-up" only lasted about 4 days due to twitter, as I understand it.
My point was that the fact that it was covered up at all (by German police, state and media) was a big mistake, which played into the hands of the right. there is a lot of evidence about this and a lot of anger about it too.

I do understand that it's far more comfortable to stay silent on this story or else to choose one of these:

a) "All men are potential rapists" - it is irrelevant where the people who carried out the NYE attacks came from, whoever they are they're just criminals and twisted bastards. From which follows that it's racist to pay much attention at all to the testimony the victims and the police have given about the swarthiness / non-German-speakingness of the attackers or to even discuss that this story seems to be unprecedented in 'the west'. Because like, this sort of mass attack on women is just as likely to have happened at Notting Hill Carnival. Except it doesn't but still, to say so is racist.

or

b) We should not be making such a fuss about this mass assault of women in a public place , because women are assaulted every day both 'here' and everywhere else, and to dwell on this unfortunate event gives white western women undue value as victims, which is of course (yes it is) racist.

?

 

[Pickman's model]

The fact that the question of veracity even arrives shows that much of the left, civil society, etc is going down the rabbit hole.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think I did tell you I'm not making binary choices based on reaction. You told me I was looking away. I'm certainly not doing that. You happily joined in with the 'arm these feral men and send them back to take their homes back from assad!' lunacy

I've been led up a blind alley of "earnestly joining in the rights culture war debate" because I keep banging on about how women in some 'cultures' / places in the world are less safe than I am ??


The "cover-up" only lasted about 4 days due to twitter, as I understand it.
My point was that the fact that it was covered up at all (by German police, state and media) was a big mistake, which played into the hands of the right. there is a lot of evidence about this and a lot of anger about it too.

I do understand that it's far more comfortable to stay silent on this story or else to choose one of these:

a) "All men are potential rapists" - it is irrelevant where the people who carried out the NYE attacks came from, whoever they are they're just criminals and twisted bastards. From which follows that it's racist to pay much attention at all to the testimony the victims and the police have given about the swarthiness / non-German-speakingness of the attackers or to even discuss that this story seems to be unprecedented in 'the west'. Because like, this sort of mass attack on women is just as likely to have happened at Notting Hill Carnival. Except it doesn't but still, to say so is racist.

or

b) We should not be making such a fuss about this mass assault of women in a public place , because women are assaulted every day both 'here' and everywhere else, and to dwell on this unfortunate event is racist because it gives white western women undue precedence as rapees.

?

 

[treelover]

Questioning the victims acccounts

 

[redsquirrel]

It was more the Goldsmiths embarrassing laminated rosette of absurd right-on ness that I was thinking of, seeing as I seem to be a racist here.

Right you keep making this kind of claim but have repeatedly refused to back it up. Who on this thread has called you a racist?

But it actually looks like people here are denying that such a thing as "culture" even exists,if that 'culture' may be full of stuff that we don't like.

Who are these people then name names?

Considering the pretty nasty smear you just laid against DC implying that he's willing to look the over way over sexual assault I think it's pretty hypocritical to imply that people are smearing you, when you won't name them

 

[DotCommunist]

The "cover-up" only lasted about 4 days due to twitter, as I understand it.

and yet you have grandstanded about it like its a damning indictment of the left. So which is it? half arsed dafties thinking they were doing right or a terrifying conspiracy of silence?

 

[redsquirrel]

Lots of people doing moral somersaults here and elsewhere,

Who? Fucking have the guts to name them or shut the fuck up with your shitty implications.

LBJ is right right this thread is a clusterfuck of silly nonsense and alleged smears.

Questioning the victims acccounts

Who is this directed to? Someone on this thread?

 

[Pickman's model]

and yet you have grandstanded about it like its a damning indictment of the left. So which is it? half arsed dafties thinking they were doing right or a terrifying conspiracy of silence?

it's bimble bollocks

 

[bimble]

Right you keep making this kind of claim but have repeatedly refused to back it up. Who on this thread has called you a racist?
Who are these people then name names?

Considering the pretty nasty smear you just laid against DC implying that he's willing to look the over way over sexual assault I think it's pretty hypocritical to imply that people are smearing you, when you won't name them

You're right, nobody here has attacked me in the way I'm imagining. I am a bit new to all this and feel conspicuous and alone. And I didn't mean to accuse DC of wanting to avert their eyes, just that his binary options of how we might talk about this were not sufficient, were a big part of the problem.

When people post things saying "where the perps were from is irrelavant, they're bastards' or 'women are raped every day what about them' they get loads of self-congratulatory virtue-signalling likes.
When people bring up the possibility that 'rape culture' is a variable the tumbleweed makes me feel lonesome and vulnerable and defensive is all.

 

[Pickman's model]

You're right, nobody here has attacked me in the way I'm imagining. I am a bit new to all this and feel conspicuous and alone is all. And I didn't mean to accuse DC of wanting to avert their eyes, just that his binary options of how we might talk about this were not sufficient, were part of the problem.

this imaginary problem?

 

[treelover]

You're right, nobody here has attacked me in the way I'm imagining. I am a bit new to all this and feel conspicuous and alone is all. And I didn't mean to accuse DC of wanting to avert their eyes, just that his binary options of how we might talk about this were not sufficient, were part of the problem.

Why do you feel the need to apologise, this is a discussion board, if you think you are right, stand by what you said.

 

[likesfish]

Oktoberfest 7million visitors and a week.
Nye one night much smaller crowds and a specific demographic

 

[irf520]

Why do you feel the need to apologise, this is a discussion board, if you think you are right, stand by what you said.

Absolutely. When calling out the bullshit, never apologize and never back down. The people spouting it won't.

 

[redsquirrel]

You're right, nobody here has attacked me in the way I'm imagining. I am a bit new to all this and feel conspicuous and alone is all. And I didn't mean to accuse DC of wanting to avert their eyes, just that his binary options of how we might talk about this were not sufficient, were part of the problem.

OK, fine. I appreciate this is an emotive issue and a fast moving thread but beside Phil playing silly beggars I don't see anyone on this thread calling anyone racist or trying to downplay the issue. I've no doubt there are some idiots doing that (though I don't think they're in anything like the numbers suggested by that Guardian piece or the like) but I've seen no evidence of that from the overwhelming majority of posters on this thread.