Insurance company CEO assassinated in New York

[andysays]

I know what those responsible for the legal system claim their intent is. But my point is that there is no such thing as an ability to judge a case free from preconceived ideas and prejudices. We effectively are a bag of preconceived ideas and prejudices.

I know it’s easy to dismiss philosophy as somehow separate from day to day life, but this question demonstrates the opposite. Philosophically, those who get to say how the legal system runs have taken a position of mind-body duality — that there is some kind of inner-self that is separate from the world and is capable of an objective and logical chain of reasoning that is free from perspective. However, there is little to support this philosophical stance. Humans rationalise using logics built from embodied, real-world experience. Our whole reasoning system is “prejudicial” from the ground up. Thinking you can avoid that reality through sufficient “objectivity” doesn’t solve the problem, it just hides it behind a firewall of who gets to decide what happens at each moment.

OK, you're excused jury service

 

[Spymaster]

And from the above report of the process in another case, it appears that it's all public, so we will potentially hear how many of the potential jurors do have, for example, a mother who had died as a result of the fucked up system of medical insurance in the USA, whether or not they are ultimately selected.

It will be a decent watch if we can see it.

I don't think it will take long, but the longest empanelment was apparently for Richard Ramirez the "Night Stalker".

They interviewed 1500 people over 5 months to eventually select a jury of 12 people.

`NIGHT STALKER' JURY SET

A panel of 12 jurors has been selected from a pool of more than 1,500 people to hear the trial of ``Night Stalker'' defendant Richard Ramirez, charged with a series of savage nocturnal murders. The jury, whose selection was completed Monday, were chosen after five months of intense...

www.deseret.com

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Can anyone with knowledge of how the jury selection process works confirm whether or not such a juror could be disqualified if the prosecution objects to them?

From what I've read it appears that any group of 12 people chosen at random would be pretty much guaranteed to include at least one person in this category.

My only knowledge of how this works is being called for jury duty three times. A couple of weeks before, you're sent a questionnaire asking about past workplaces and connections to the case. Then, about three-times more people show up for the Voir Dire (don't know if I'm spelling it right). They ask you a bunch of questions to determine if you have bias in the case. Then, both sides get to throw a certain number of people off. It seemed to me that they tried to keep the most unenlightened and malleable people they could find and sent the rest home. That might be bitterness because I was questioned for two cases each time I was called and was sent home each time.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

This is probably all correct, but the notion of bias in the context of the legal system simply refers to someone's propensity to judge the case according to preconceived ideas and prejudices rather than by the evidence, very much in the way that many are doing on this thread.

None of us here are in danger of being on that jury, except for maybe petee, who I believe lives in NY.

 

[Spymaster]

My only knowledge of how this works is being called for jury duty three times. A couple of weeks before, you're sent a questionnaire asking about past workplaces and connections to the case. Then, about three-times more people show up for the Voir Dire (don't know if I'm spelling it right). They ask you a bunch of questions to determine if you have bias in the case. Then, both sides get to throw a certain number of people off. It seemed to me that they tried to keep the most unenlightened and malleable people they could find and sent the rest home. That might be bitterness because I was questioned for two cases each time I was called and was sent home each time.

What questions were you asked and what were the cases?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

What questions were you asked and what were the cases?

One case that I was called for was a check fraud case. The defendant was representing themself and doing a bad job of it. I was asked about my employment for a printing company that printed the statues of several states by the prosecutor. They asked what was printing and if I read any of it. I think I was thrown off by the prosecution because I said that I did read it.

The other case I remember was a negligent homicide case in a car crash. I was asked if I had any specialized medical knowledge.

 

[hitmouse]

It is also worth bearing in mind that jurors can absolutely lie when asked these questions and you won't get found out or get in trouble for it. It is very very unlikely that any NY-based prospective jurors with a strong grudge against the health insurance industry are reading this thread (except for maybe Petee), but if you are, you can definitely lie when asked these questions.

Also, for those who've not encountered it before, the idea of a death-qualified jury is quite a grim one (not necessarily relevant here, just to discussions of the US jury system in general):

Death-qualified jury - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[brogdale]

Opened the second bottle by this point I assume Spymaster!

Dunno about that but it does look like Spymaster had forgotten about his own OP :

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy apparently.

The fella was the boss of a scumbag insurance outfit, notorious for not paying health claims.

I’m not usually one for extra judicial justice but I’m finding it hard to give a toss about this bloke.

 

[Spymaster]

Dunno about that but it does look like Spymaster had forgotten about his own OP :

Oh, don't get me wrong; I don't give a toss about Thompson, but that doesn't mean I don't think Mangione shouldn't do life in chokey. In fact, he'd be a cuspian candidate for the long drop in Spyworld.

Did you really think I'd think otherwise?

 

[brogdale]

Oh, don't get me wrong; I don't give a toss about Thompson, but that doesn't mean I don't think Mangione shouldn't do life in chokey. In fact, he'd be a cuspian candidate for the long drop in Spyworld.

Seems harsh and seemingly at odds with your OP that implied that, unusually, you were for this example of "extra judicial justice". But, hey....it's OK to be inconsistent, innit?

 

[Spymaster]

Seems harsh and seemingly at odds with your OP that implied that, unusually, you were for this example of "extra judicial justice". But, hey....it's OK to be inconsistent, innit?

Don't be silly. Not caring about someone's murder is in no way inconsistent with wanting the murderer punished.

 

[brogdale]

Don't be silly. Not caring about someone's murder is in no way inconsistent with wanting the murderer punished.

Agreed, but being for the execution and describing it as "justice" goes beyond being uncaring. But like I said, it's OK to be inconsistent; who amongst us hasn't been so from time to time?

 

[Spymaster]

Agreed, but being for the execution and describing it as "justice" goes beyond being uncaring. But like I said, it's OK to be inconsistent; who amongst us hasn't been so from time to time?

Me.

 

[two sheds]

One thing though, if jurors know someone will get the death penalty if found guilty I think there'll be a lot more chance of an innocent verdict.

And some more on jury nullification:

Experts say handling of Luigi Mangione's case could backfire

“It’s atypical—the way the whole case has been handled," former prosecutor says.

www.salon.com

Javed Ali, a law professor at the University of Michigan, agreed with McQuade and noted that the shooting is being treated as an act of terror by New York officials in more ways than just the charges. Ali pointed to the Mangione’s perp walk, where he was surrounded by heavily armed law enforcement as well as Mayor Eric Adams. He said it bore similarities to the perp walk of Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, who killed 168 people in 1995.

Former federal prosecutor Neama Rahmani told Salon that he sees the terrorism charge as a “stretch” and says that he thinks the decision to charge Mangione with an act of terror moves the focus of the case from Thompson’s killing onto the health insurance industry in America.

“Terrorism requires either the intent to intimidate the public or to influence the government,” Rahmani said. “Now all of a sudden, the health insurance industry and his motivation all come into evidence in what would otherwise be a pretty clear murder case.”

Unlike other New York cases where terrorism has been alleged, like the white supremacist shooting at a Tops supermarket in 2022, there is widespread public support for Mangione and the unusual treatment that his case is receiving, Rahmani said, might only make it harder for prosecutors to win in court

“It’s atypical—the way the whole case has been handled. You have Eric Adams, who is under indictment himself, at the perp walk,” Rahmani said. “I see a very real risk of jury nullification in the case. I haven't seen something like this since OJ, where there is so much sympathy for the accused.”

Ali also noted that the sequencing of the state and federal cases against Mangione could influence one another. In federal court, Mangione is charged with using a firearm to commit murder and stalking. The former of those charges could result in the death penalty, a punishment the incoming Trump administration is expected to use liberally. Because of this, Mangione’s state-level case might not even go forward if his federal trial happens first, Ali said.

 

[two sheds]

Luigi for 2028 if he gets off (and even if he doesn't, there's precedent for a crim getting into the White House)

 

[8ball]

Luigi for 2028 if he gets off (and even if he doesn't, there's precedent for a crim getting into the White House)

View attachment 458141

If a sociopath rapist can have the job twice, then what’s one socially-responsible unaliving in the great scheme of things?

 

[_Russ_]

The term "shown a juror is biased", "shown" is taken by many to mean something Closer to "proven" than what it really means...."convinced"

Lawyers are all about convincing people a certain bias is the truth, facts are always powerfull facilitators but not always the deciding factor.

 

[two sheds]

Having enough money to employ multiple expensive lawyers is like having more dice to throw because they can find loopholes by looking for precedents.

A mate who went through the English Legal System pleading his own case (cost scientology £1 million in legal fees ) also told me that he'd found judges will believe highly paid barristers more than anyone else.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Having enough money to employ multiple expensive lawyers is like having more dice to throw because they can find loopholes by looking for precedents.

A mate who went through the English Legal System pleading his own case (cost scientology £1 million in legal fees ) also told me that he'd found judges will believe highly paid barristers more than anyone else.

From what I've seen the highly paid barristers, and the judges belong to the same private club, or went to the same ivy league school.

 

[two sheds]

Indeed. Logical because they know from personal experience that they are inherently more trustworthy

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

 

[8ball]

View attachment 458321

Tbf I know an ex-CEO who is really nice.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbf I know an ex-CEO who is really nice.

but have you ever met a nice south african?

 

[8ball]

but have you ever met a nice south african?

Yeah, one in Uni many moons ago and used to work with some til fairly recently.

 

[Saul Goodman]

but have you ever met a nice south african?

Apart from Musk?

 

[8ball]

Apart from Musk?

You’ve met Elon Musk?

Maybe best not shout too much about it round these parts..

 

[Saul Goodman]

You’ve met Elon Musk?

Maybe best not shout too much about it round these parts..

He applied for a job at my mate's whelk stall.

 

[8ball]

He applied for a job at my mate's whelk stall.

A true polymath.

 

[Saul Goodman]

A true polymath.

He didn't get the job. The cunt spent too much time posting on Twitter.

 

[emanymton]

He didn't get the job. The cunt spent too much time posting on Twitter.

You know I bet even Musk still fucking calls it Twitter instead of X.