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Insurance company CEO assassinated in New York

I mean, I don't really like the term "political prisoner" myself, I think it's better and clearer to describe people by the movement they're affiliated with, for instance you can describe someone who's in prison for punching a nazi as an antifascist prisoner and that's a bit less contentious. So I suppose you could call Mangione as someone who's in prison for his alleged contributions to the movement for healthcare reform.
But there is a fairly long history of people organising support for people who are imprisoned for actions taken as part of a political movement, and of the term "political prisoner" being used for that.
The Anarchist Black Cross Federation have this definition, for instance:

Decent post.

The problem with all of this is its completely subjective nature. A definition of "political prisoner" by The Anarchist Black Cross Federation, is as valueless as ISIS' definition of themselves as God's representatives. Anyone who's not part of your interest group will simply shrug and call bullshit. The ABCF definition is further confounded by its reliance on terms such as 'legitimate struggle' and 'illegal government policies', which themselves are thoroughly contentious. It's not a definition, it's a political statement.

As I say, I don't particularly love the term myself, but I do think that "persons incarcerated as a result of actions consciously undertaken to resist exploitation" is a coherent category, and Mangione fits it.

It doesn't exactly trip off the tongue but it's better than political prisoner. I'll give you that. You also have to consider what you're trying to achieve by categorising Mangione as such. The intent behind his action is going to be key in his defence. When you say "actions consciously undertaken to resist exploitation", what does that mean? Is that resistance of exploitation an attempt to scare business leaders into better behaviour, or simply an attempt to draw attention to unfair industry practices? For us, discussing it on the internet the difference may seem trivial but to Luigi Mangione, it's the difference between first and second degree murder.

Regarding the collection, even if we accept that the organisers are genuine about assisting LM (and that's probably the case), the rest of the post you quoted still stands. Anyone contributing still has to have faith in D4Legal and their idea of what political prisoners are, bearing in mind that they are raising money for someone who gunned-down a man in the street.

There's not much of interest in the videos from the collection organiser. He's just saying what you'd expect him to say, and that every American deserves a defence, which nobody has denied. More interesting is the statement in the second video that LM's lawyers have said they won't accept the money and the piece in the second half of the second vid by the former defence attorney when asked about his possible defence strategy. It's notable that the politicised element is absent and she only talks about running an insanity defence. There aren't many other options for them. The other common defence against murder is self defence, which in this case would be preposterous.

Shooting a CEO dead because he's a scumbag who runs a shitty unfair business is NOT a legally acceptable defence to murder. You will not hear that as mitigation from the defence team in court, although they might cite it as something that affected LM's state of mind as part of a mental illness defence. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

I think this trial will be a lot shorter than many seem to think. Whilst LM's action may generate discussion about the healthcare industry outside of the courtroom, the legal case is pretty clear. Unless a diminished responsibility defence is successful, it won't take a jury long to figure out that he's a murderer, and he's going to get a life sentence.
 
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Shooting a CEO dead because he's a scumbag who runs a shitty unfair business is NOT a legally accepted defence to murder. You will not hear that as mitigation from the defence team in court, although they might cite it as something that affected LM's state of mind as part of a mental illness defence. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

I think that this trial will be a lot shorter than many seem to think. Whilst LM's action may generate discussion about the healthcare industry outside of the courtroom, the legal case is pretty clear. Unless a diminished responsibility defence is successful, it won't take a jury long to figure out that he's a murderer, and he's going to get a life sentence.
It is mitigation in the court of public opinion
 
It only needs one juror who's had a terminally ill family member ufairly refused by American Insurance companies to refuse to find him guilty though. That means a hung jury and a retrial, rinse and repeat unless they can find jurors who've never been impacted. Not sure how likely this is, but definitely possible.
 
I think it might ultimately affect the charge he ends up being convicted of, though. Particularly the federal terrorism charge, which potentially carries the death penalty. I think they will baulk at pushing for the DP precisely because of public opinion.

He hasn't been charged with terrorism, it's the federal 'murder through the use of a firearm' charge that opens up the DP. But I agree, I don't think they'll kill him.
 
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It only needs one juror who's had a terminally ill family member unfairly refused by American Insurance companies to refuse to find him guilty though. That means a hung jury and a retrial, rinse and repeat unless they can find jurors who've never been impacted. Not sure how likely this is, but definitely possible.

Can anyone with knowledge of how the jury selection process works confirm whether or not such a juror could be disqualified if the prosecution objects to them?

From what I've read it appears that any group of 12 people chosen at random would be pretty much guaranteed to include at least one person in this category.
 
Can anyone with knowledge of how the jury selection process works confirm whether or not such a juror could be disqualified if the prosecution objects to them?

From what I've read it appears that any group of 12 people chosen at random would be pretty much guaranteed to include at least one person in this category.
Just going by US tv shows, do the prosecution/defence get a certain number rejections each? If so, perhaps the prosecution just runs out of gos.
 
Just going by US tv shows, do the prosecution/defence get a certain number rejections each? If so, perhaps the prosecution just runs out of gos.

I think that might be correct, but I was hoping someone with more knowledge than simply watching a few episodes of Law and Order might comment.

(I have possibly even less knowledge than this, TBH)
 
I think that might be correct, but I was hoping someone with more knowledge than simply watching a few episodes of Law and Order might comment.

(I have possibly even less knowledge than this, TBH)
I know enough to know different courts, maybe even different judges, do it differently.

So less than helpful.
 
Can anyone with knowledge of how the jury selection process works confirm whether or not such a juror could be disqualified if the prosecution objects to them?

From what I've read it appears that any group of 12 people chosen at random would be pretty much guaranteed to include at least one person in this category.

Just going by US tv shows, do the prosecution/defence get a certain number rejections each? If so, perhaps the prosecution just runs out of gos.

It's called voir dire and there are two types of challenges.

Challenge for cause is where the lawyers will ask questions of individual potential jurors and if they get an answer that they believe would affect that juror's ability to deliver an unbiased verdict they can ask the judge to rule on it. If the judge agrees, the potential juror is dismissed. They have an unlimited number of challenges for cause, which is why jury selection sometimes takes a while.

The other challenge is a peremptory challenge, which is where the lawyers can dismiss a juror without referring to the judge, perhaps because they just don't like them. I think they get three of those but maybe it differs from state to state.

I would assume that "have you been negatively affected by the medical insurance industry" or some version of it, would be quite high on the prosecution's list of questions and any answer confirming it would lead to a challenge for cause.
 
Decent post.

The problem with all of this is its completely subjective nature. A definition of "political prisoner" by The Anarchist Black Cross Federation, is as valueless as ISIS' definition of themselves as God's representatives. Anyone who's not part of your interest group will simply shrug and call bullshit. The ABCF definition is further confounded by its reliance on terms such as 'legitimate struggle' and 'illegal government policies', which themselves are thoroughly contentious. It's not a definition, it's a political statement.
Hah, I mean, the full thing on the ABCF site is even longer and includes a whole thing about how they didn't actually come up with the definitions and they have some of the same objections to some of the terms, but they use the definition as one that was come up with before they were founded, but I thought my post was quite long enough already without further nitpicking. Anyway, I do think the second definition about “those persons incarcerated as a result of political beliefs or actions consciously undertaken and intended to resist exploitation and oppression, and/or hasten the implementation of an egalitarian, sustainable, ethical, classless society, predicated on self-determination and maximization of all people’s freedom.” is better and clearer, even if there is still some subjectivity there. Also I suppose it depends what you want to do with a term - it's one thing to be trying to write a dictionary, another to get a definition for the purpose of saying "here's what our organisation does and doesn't do."
Regarding the collection, even if we accept that the organisers are genuine about assisting LM (and that's probably the case), the rest of the post you quoted still stands. Anyone contributing still has to have faith in D4Legal and their idea of what political prisoners are, bearing in mind that they are raising money for someone who gunned-down a man in the street.
Yeah. To be honest, I think it is a fair question to ask, I've dropped them an email to ask and will post here if I get a reply. My prediction is that they'll be looking at some combination of people facing charges for defend the Atlanta forest stuff, people facing charges for pro-choice/pro-abortion graffiti, cases around Palestine solidarity stuff and then maybe older cases from the summer 2020 riots, but we'll see. And I'm sure that there will be some people who'll be happy to give money to Mangione but might object to giving money to a pro-abortion defendant or similar.
I still think the interesting story here is that they've managed to get to $216,821. And I'm assuming that comes from a donor base that skews towards poor people, I can't imagine there's many CEOs making big money donations to the fund. I don't know how many Americans there are who think exactly like me, or the Anarchist Black Cross Federation or whatever, but don't think there's enough of them to raise that kind of money easily.
There's not much of interest in the videos from the collection organiser. He's just saying what you'd expect him to say, and that every American deserves a defence, which nobody has denied. More interesting is the statement in the second video that LM's lawyers have said they won't accept the money and the piece in the second half of the second vid by the former defence attorney when asked about his possible defence strategy. It's notable that the politicised element is absent and she only talks about running an insanity defence. There aren't many other options for them. The other common defence against murder is self defence, which in this case would be preposterous.
I have to admit that I didn't actually watch the videos. Like, I did basic checking that they were what I said they were and not just that Rick Astley song or whatever, but couldn't be bothered watching them all the way through. Although I did listen to that whole podcast, and they discuss the content of the interviews a fair bit in that.
Can anyone with knowledge of how the jury selection process works confirm whether or not such a juror could be disqualified if the prosecution objects to them?

From what I've read it appears that any group of 12 people chosen at random would be pretty much guaranteed to include at least one person in this category.
Oh, spy answered this while I was writing, but yeah, if you want to become a real expert on the subject here's a wiki page:

And here's a PDF of an actual legal handbook, written by the wonderfully-named William Pagan and Jesus Zeno:

Basic answers are the same though, the prosecution (and defense) can get rid of a small number of people, think it is three, on the grounds of just not liking their face, but the judge and both sides can ask questions and get any number of jurors thrown off for giving answers that would indicate they can't give an unbiased verdict. Good luck to them finding 12 people who've never had any bad experiences with the US health system, though.
 
It's called voir dire and there are two types of challenges.

Challenge for cause is where the lawyers will ask questions of individual potential jurors and if they get an answer that they believe would affect that juror's ability to deliver an unbiased verdict they can ask the judge to rule on it. If the judge agrees, the potential juror is dismissed. They have an unlimited number of challenges for cause, which is why jury selection sometimes takes a while.

The other challenge is a peremptory challenge, which is where the lawyers can dismiss a juror without referring to the judge, perhaps because they just don't like them. I think they get three of those but maybe it differs from state to state.

I would assume that "have you been negatively affected by the medical insurance industry" or some version of it, would be quite high on the prosecution's list of questions and any answer confirming it would lead to a challenge for cause.
You'd imagine a whole string of "have you been negatively affected by the medical insurance industry"? "yes they denied cancer care for my mother" "yes they refused emergency funding for my niece" "yes they wouldn't pay for my heart operation" ... might start to give some sympathy for him.
 
Good luck to them finding 12 people who've never had any bad experiences with the US health system, though.
Anybody that isn't biased against the US health system would have to be either a shill for the US health system or extremely well off, so the prosecution and the defence should probably just ask the same question.
 
Surely the defence lawyers could also bar anyone who's never had their healthcare claim denied? So presumably, there'd need to be a bit of give and take. 6 victims of health insurance and 6 who've never been denied.
 
Surely the defence lawyers could also bar anyone who's never had their healthcare claim denied? So presumably, there'd need to be a bit of give and take. 6 victims of health insurance and 6 who've never been denied.
Yep, Luigi did it, but he's not guilty.
 
It's called voir dire and there are two types of challenges.

Challenge for cause is where the lawyers will ask questions of individual potential jurors and if they get an answer that they believe would affect that juror's ability to deliver an unbiased verdict they can ask the judge to rule on it. If the judge agrees, the potential juror is dismissed. They have an unlimited number of challenges for cause, which is why jury selection sometimes takes a while.

The other challenge is a peremptory challenge, which is where the lawyers can dismiss a juror without referring to the judge, perhaps because they just don't like them. I think they get three of those but maybe it differs from state to state.

I would assume that "have you been negatively affected by the medical insurance industry" or some version of it, would be quite high on the prosecution's list of questions and any answer confirming it would lead to a challenge for cause.
The judge will decide whether or not the cause is a valid one, though, no? Perhaps it might be limited to if you'd been negatively affected by that particular company. It will need to be limited in some way.
 
The judge will decide whether or not the cause is a valid one, though, no? Perhaps it might be limited to if you'd been negatively affected by that particular company. It will need to be limited in some way.

I don’t know. That was a bit of a reckon on my part and I’m not sure if it’s even a legitimate question. If I was the prosecutor and allowed to ask it though, it’d be the first thing I’d want to know.
 
I thought all you right-on types were anti capital punishment, but here you all are condoning not only an execution but an extra-judicial execution! :eek:
In Russia in the days of the Czar, there were members of a terrorist organisation that assassinated state officials. Members of this organisation joined the post-revolutionary government. They opposed capital punishment. They argued that, whereas it was justified to shoot officials of an oppressive state, it was wrong as a state to kill someone on your power.
 
In Russia in the days of the Czar, there were members of a terrorist organisation that assassinated state officials. Members of this organisation joined the post-revolutionary government. They opposed capital punishment. They argued that, whereas it was justified to shoot officials of an oppressive state, it was wrong as a state to kill someone on your power.

Silly cunts.
 
Surely the defence lawyers could also bar anyone who's never had their healthcare claim denied? So presumably, there'd need to be a bit of give and take. 6 victims of health insurance and 6 who've never been denied.

I think people who have lost people close to them after denials should be in there too.
 
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