Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Bernie Gunther]

As I said above, it's an outlier in terms of scale but nothing fundamentally different was going on to established patterns of crime that I can see.

Perhaps evidence will emerge that these attacks were organised by the sex-case wing of Al Qaeda. Given the impact that we're seeing, in some sense they might as well have been.

Meanwhile what the evidence suggests to me is an unusually large scale case involving swarming and distraction tactics, used by gangs who happened to be predominantly ethnic, for street robbery. Which is a crime that very frequently targets women and often includes elements of sexual intimidation when it does and is committed by criminals of all ethnicities, but very rarely by women. So Thora's point is a good one.

What is special unique and different though, is that Germany has recently admitted a whole lot of Syrian refugees and that Europe in general is all stirred up by various racist propagandists pushing cynical agendas (one of them recently knighted) in an atmosphere charged by the aftershocks of the recent Paris terror attacks.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was this a terrorist attack? Were these men making a political/religious point?

ah! so on the one hand you think too great a fuss is being made in terms of quantity wr2 cologne while taking a qualitative view of the killing of even one person for political motives.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was this a terrorist attack? Were these men making a political/religious point?

do you not see a dichotomy here?

 

[Pickman's model]

Maybe we need curfews for men. Or laws against congregating in groups.

enforced by the police i suppose

 

[Athos]

and how significant a reduction would your hypothetical figures be compared to the actual current levels of rape?

Well, you just quoted the actual figures, and you saw the hypothetical figures I spoke of, so there's your answer. Not that I'm contending the hypothetical figures bear any relation to reality.

 

[bimble]

actually, if you consider this as a time of mass movement of people due to conflict, it's hard to find a conflict that did not result in a hell of a lot worse.
a lot worse is happening as a result of this conflict.
but some women are more deserving of the backing of their white knights than others.

Excellent. So there's another reason why it would be more right-on to not talk about what happened on NYE. Like, if you really care about rape and sexual abuse of women then shut up about this story, is that correct?

 

[tony.c]

Maybe we need curfews for men. Or laws against congregating in groups.

'Women are sniggered at, insulted, and find men's hands down their tops and between their legs. Dark corners are dangerous, girls who are drunk and alone are chased and raped. Security and police are nowhere to be seen. Welcome to Oktoberfest, Munich's annual beer saturnalia. The worst, barmaids say, are Brits and Italians.'

'When someone brought up the Oktoberfest parallels, Muslim-haters started a Facebook campaign arguing that, with 5.9 million visitors over a week, "only" 20 women were raped last year.'
Alan Posener (Die Welt correspondent)
Article in todays Observer

'At last year's (Oktoberfest) festival, 6 rapes and 11 other sex attacks were reported. Police estimated that the real rape figure is as high as 120.'
http:www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1442185/Sex-sanctuary-set-up-at-Oktoberfest.html

 

[Pickman's model]

Excellent. So there's another reason why it would be more right-on to not talk about what happened on NYE. Like, if you really care about rape and sexual abuse of women then shut up about this story, is that correct?

this *will* end well

 

[Thora]

ah! so on the one hand you think too great a fuss is being made in terms of quantity wr2 cologne while taking a qualitative view of the killing of even one person for political motives.

I haven't said too much of a fuss has been made about quantity, I've said it's being framed the wrong way - as a refugee problem rather than a men problem.

 

[bimble]

I haven't said too much of a fuss has been made about quantity, I've said it's being framed the wrong way - as a refugee problem rather than a men problem.

The statistic in the page below are horrific. I had no clue.

on average, there are approximately 10k sexual assaults happening every week, 11 rapes every hour.

from Rape statistics

still want to tell me how much worse this one night was?

At the same time, the page confirms what is well-known to be the case here, when its says that (in UK) "Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence".
This is one of the reasons why the sexual assault in public, en masse, of hundreds of women, is (in my opinion) a legitimate news story to talk about.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't said too much of a fuss has been made about quantity, I've said it's being framed the wrong way - as a refugee problem rather than a men problem.

i said you think not you said

 

[Thora]

This is one of the reasons why the sexual assault in public, en masse, of hundreds of women, is (in my opinion) a legitimate news story to talk about.

Of course it's a legitimate news story!

 

[bimble]

Of course it's a legitimate news story!

Ye, sorry, not directed at you .. It was Toggle who seemed to be saying that it was wrong to make a fuss of the events of NYE because women are raped every day etc.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The statistic in the page below are horrific. I had no clue.


At the same time, the page confirms what is well-known to be the case here, when its says that (in UK) "Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence".
This is one of the reasons why the sexual assault in public, en masse, of hundreds of women, is (in my opinion) a legitimate news story to talk about.

It'd be interesting to see some data on the frequency with which street crime against women includes some element of sexual intimidation. I bet it's significant.

 

[emanymton]

Ye, sorry, not directed at you .. It was Toggle who seemed to be saying that it was wrong to make a fuss of the events of NYE because women are raped every day etc.

Thats not how I read her posts at all.

 

[bimble]

It'd be interesting to see some data on the frequency with which street crime against women includes some element of sexual intimidation. I bet it's significant.

Yes. It's happened to me once, in fact was the horriblest thing that's ever happened to me (luckily). Won't say where I was when it happened (with a street full of people watching) because that would probably make me look like a racist.

 

[Thora]

Ye, sorry, not directed at you .. It was Toggle who seemed to be saying that it was wrong to make a fuss of the events of NYE because women are raped every day etc.

I think it's significant because of the scale of the assaults (and it would be significant if it turns out to be organised) but the immigration status of the men involved is less significant. Lots of men with misogynistic attitudes and the opportunity to assault women will do so if they think they can get away with it. I can certainly believe from my own experience that men from some cultural backgrounds are more likely to hold/express their misogynistic views through street harassment, abuse and assault (I've been street harassed in France frequently, England occasionally and Germany very rarely for example) but casting this event as a problem with refugees/immigrants doesn't get us anywhere closer to solving the problem of male violence. ETA - which I'm assuming is the aim.

 

[DotCommunist]

Excellent. So there's another reason why it would be more right-on to not talk about what happened on NYE. Like, if you really care about women's rights then shut up about this story, right?

thats not where toggle is coming from if I read her correct (you'll tell me if I'm wrong here toggle). But the attempts, encouraged by the usual, to depict this as a cultural problem specific to certain cultures and therefor all the bleeding hearts were wrong to 'let them in' (which at this point actually means granting legal status, some form of state provison and recognition, they are already here).
What happened on NYE is not to be swept under the carpet or downplayed for fear of a right wing backlash or whatever. That was always coming, this totally shit episode, or another terrorist spectacular in a european capital. But to make this a culture specific issue, theres a problem. You'll be sharing uncomfortable bedfellows with that line.

We've already seen on this thead someone loudly proclaiming that this incident justifies racial profiling and people who complain about that are whining.

 

[Athos]

Is the fact that it's stranger rape part of the reason this is making such an impact? Ater all, men control the media, and I wonder whether, in a lot of men's heads, stranger rape raises the spectre of a 'decent' woman i.e. your wife or mother, being snatched off the street, and that that's different from the vast majority of 'rape' which is something that pissed-up sluts bring on themselves? In a way, it's arguable that the reaction to this (in stark contrast to the lack of reaction to the ongoing rape epedemic and culture) says more about misogyny in European men than it does in refugees. The fact that many men see rape only insofar as it impacts on them, and that women are only a medium.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's significant because of the scale of the assaults (and it would be significant if it turns out to be organised) but the immigration status of the men involved is less significant. Lots of men with misogynistic attitudes and the opportunity to assault women will do so if they think they can get away with it. I can certainly believe from my own experience that men from some cultural backgrounds are more likely to hold/express their misogynistic views through street harassment, abuse and assault (I've been street harassed in France frequently, England occasionally and Germany very rarely for example) but casting this event as a problem with refugees/immigrants doesn't get us anywhere closer to solving the problem of male violence. ETA - which I'm assuming is the aim.

thank you for clarifying that. but i think you're being either naive or optimistic if you believe that to be the aim. i expect migrant-bashing in the media and maybe elsewhere a major aim for many people and using nye against long settled and recently arrived immigrants in europe.

 

[toggle]

Excellent. So there's another reason why it would be more right-on to not talk about what happened on NYE. Like, if you really care about rape and sexual abuse of women then shut up about this story, is that correct?

that interpretation says a lot more about you than it does about my words.

 

[bimble]

What happened on NYE is not to be swept under the carpet or downplayed for fear of a right wing backlash or whatever [..] But to make this a culture specific issue, theres a problem. You'll be sharing uncomfortable bedfellows with that line.

I know! From a couple of evenings ago when all of a sudden it seemed like casually red was my new & only friend.
Certainly the abuse of women and sexual violence is NOT a culture specific issue.
But it did seem to me (on this thread) that when I said I was safer than other women elsewhere in the world, for instance when I walk home alone at night, even that was a controversial statement. So it looks like people want to deny that women in some 'cultures' are safer than those who live in others. Which is (i think) mad.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Yes. It's happened to me once, in fact was the horriblest thing that's ever happened to me (luckily). Won't say where I was when it happened (with a street full of people watching) because that would probably make me look like a racist.

It's pretty clear that there are some places which are safer than others.

Statistics - Academic and Community Studies | Stop Street Harassment

I don't think anyone here would argue otherwise, or suggest that pointing it out is racist (would they?)

It's also equally clear though that there are no countries where such harassment (and getting the cops to take it seriously) is not a significant problem.

 

[DotCommunist]

I know! From a couple of evenings ago when all of a sudden it seemed like casually red was my new & only friend.
Certainly the abuse of women and sexual violence is NOT a culture specific issue.
But it did seem to me (on this thread) that when I said I was safer than other women elsewhere in the world, for instance when I walk home alone at night, even that was a controversial statement. So it looks like people want to deny that women in some 'cultures' are safer than those who live in others. Which is (i think) mad.

degrees of freedom and what happens if you step outside of your socio-cultural 'role' etc.

None of this endorses the idea that some cultures are just naturally rapey.

 

[Dowie]

Also according to some witness statements there were 3 men giving the others instructions, sending them off to abuse.

Now that is out of the ordinary..

( it was in the Guardian so it might not be true , can provide link if needed )

surely more likely there were three men coordinating the gangs of pickpockets/thieves... the abuse (though horrific) is probably secondary to the aim of stealing for them

I doubt this was any form of 'terror attack' or a coordinated mass groping of women - if there was any coordination then it was surely for the purpose of stealing from vulnerably drunk people and the sexual assaults happened during the process of relieveing people of their posessions

 

[toggle]

thats not where toggle is coming from if I read her correct (you'll tell me if I'm wrong here toggle). But the attempts, encouraged by the usual, to depict this as a cultural problem specific to certain cultures and therefor all the bleeding hearts were wrong to 'let them in' (which at this point actually means granting legal status, some form of state provison and recognition, they are already here).
What happened on NYE is not to be swept under the carpet or downplayed for fear of a right wing backlash or whatever. That was always coming, this totally shit episode, or another terrorist spectacular in a european capital. But to make this a culture specific issue, theres a problem. You'll be sharing uncomfortable bedfellows with that line.

We've already seen on this thead someone loudly proclaiming that this incident justifies racial profiling and people who complain about that are whining.

yes, that's part of it. plus the omg, hundreds of women were assaulted on nye. that those numbers alone make it horiffic. but the numbers of women who get assaulted every day are worse.

i get left with the feeling that attacks on women don't matter to a lot of the people i've seen across the net/media getting on their soapboxes, unless it can further one of their agendas.

 

[bimble]

degrees of freedom and what happens if you step outside of your socio-cultural 'role' etc.

None of this endorses the idea that some cultures are just naturally rapey.

I find the word rapey disgusting tbf. But. To deny that a woman walking alone at night say in some "cultures' / places is in far higher danger than I am is absurd at best.
It's also incredibly cowardly.

May I suggest you watch a documentary called 'India's Daughter' which was banned in India ?

The best bit is the defence lawyer (acting for the rapists of the girl who died after being gang raped and thrown off a public bus).
Here are some of his best bits, in a very bad youtube video. This is a high ranking lawyer.
I am only trying to say that 'rape culture' is relative, it does not exist to the same degree everywhere in the world ffs.
Whilst we talk about 'blurred lines' for weeks, this sort of shit is normal for women elsewhere.

 

[DotCommunist]

I find the word rapey disgusting tbf. But. To deny that women out alone at night say in some "cultures' / places are in far higher danger than I am is absurd.
may I suggest you watch a documentary called 'India's Daughter' which was banned in India ?

which nobody has suggested unless I missed a post? Thats precisely what I mean when I talk about defined role- unnattended woman, fair game, she's nicked for adultery after reporting it cos adultery etc.
There's a couple of reactions here, maybe three. One, downplay it like some absurd headbangers have. Other, the rightist crow of 'I told you so' and making hay from it. or a third, frantically line up with the right in their 'culture war' line in order to avoid looking like some total lefty flake. I'm not buying either of them.

(If that docu is about the woman who was raped to death on a bus and the wider problems of eve teasing and misogyny in indian society then I'll save it for a less depressing day)

 

[bimble]

There's a couple of reactions here, maybe three. One, downplay it like some absurd headbangers have. Other, the rightist crow of 'I told you so' and making hay from it. or a third, frantically line up with the right in their 'culture war' line in order to avoid looking like some total lefty flake. I'm not buying either of them.

Great. Just tick 'none of the above' then and look away now.

(If that docu is about the woman who was raped to death on a bus and the wider problems of eve teasing and misogyny in indian society then I'll save it for a less depressing day)

Yep, that's the one.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Was this a terrorist attack? Were these men making a political/religious point?

I keep wondering about this. Lots of cities in Europe were expecting some kind of attack over the Christmas period. ISIS clearly have quite a few followers in these major cities. What a great way to turn Western countries against the people fleeing the region and force them back into the arms of the Caliphate. It is starting to look like these events were organized, not just coincidental.