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Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

To generalise like this is erroneous as it serves to avoid examining the consequences of what has happened on NYE and risks letting the perpetrators off by saying they somehow form part of a pattern already present in our society. Mass attacks like this do not form the norm in our society, if they did then you would see it at Glastonbury or anywhere else where men and women gather to celebrate and have fun.

Yes, there is sexism in society but nothing like this has happened before. Women in germany are now being forced to change their lifestyles over night, I repeat "over night", and are now (not before) afraid to go about their normal lives. Western sexism is not to blame for this precise consequence. A group of organized men with a somewhat extremer version of mysogony are.

actually, if you consider this as a time of mass movement of people due to conflict, it's hard to find a conflict that did not result in a hell of a lot worse.

a lot worse is happening as a result of this conflict.

but some women are more deserving of the backing of their white knights than others.
 
To generalise like this is erroneous as it serves to avoid examining the consequences of what has happened on NYE and risks letting the perpetrators off by saying they somehow form part of a pattern already present in our society. Mass attacks like this do not form the norm in our society, if they did then you would see it at Glastonbury or anywhere else where men and women gather to celebrate and have fun.

Yes, there is sexism in society but nothing like this has happened before. Women in germany are now being forced to change their lifestyles over night, I repeat "over night", and are now (not before) afraid to go about their normal lives. Western sexism is not to blame for this precise consequence. A group of organized men with a somewhat extremer version of mysogony are.

Yes, it is misogyny, but would not be perceived as such in certain cultures. It would be perceived as the norm. (The innate superiority of men over women that is, not the assaults.)

A large part of the problem is displacement. In Germany there are no moderating factors, such as community elders and extended families. I'll bet that none of the attackers would behave like this at home, if only because the community, or certainly the victims extended family, are likely to string them up.
 
Th Germans managed in 1945 as did the Italians and the Spanish after Franco andSouthAfrica afterApartheid andIndia in 1948.

Perhaps, you should sprnd more timewith people from the Middle East, rather than ocusing on the strawmen of racist stereotypes and your imagination.

You may not have noticed but the ME and north africa are rapidly becoming a no go zone for westerners.
 
Dear God. That is appalling.


that's my point.

why is this one night in one city being talked about as being so bad, when statistically, it isn't significant.

of course ti's significant to the victims. it must have been terrifying.

but the location and the victim demographics make this more newsworthy than the mass graves of women who were too old for isis to enslave and rape, and the fact that thousands of other women were assaulted in europe that week and no one who is pontificating on cologne gives much of a fuck about them.
 
that's my point.

why is this one night in one city being talked about as being so bad, when statistically, it isn't significant.

of course ti's significant to the victims. it must have been terrifying.

but the location and the victim demographics make this more newsworthy than the mass graves of women who were too old for isis to enslave and rape, and the fact that thousands of other women were assaulted in europe that week and no one who is pontificating on cologne gives much of a fuck about them.

I know, let's wheel out statistics and moral relativism to lessen the importance of what has happened on NYE in Cologne, several other cities and in Finland, too.
 
I know, let's wheel out statistics and moral relativism to lessen the importance of what has happened on NYE in Cologne, several other cities and in Finland, too.
It's not a fucking competition.

But the more extreme claims, from the 'we're with Enoch'-types like Casually Red and Greebozz, that Europe has been changed for women for ever, and it was madness to let them in, are treating it as such, and acting as if these were the main issues facing women in Europe today. They're not and that's worth saying.

This thread is making me fucking sick.
 
....statistically, it isn't significant....

....proves what a load of bollocks statistics are then....

...weird thing public opinion though....a single newspaper photo of the dead child on the beach seemed to provoke a great wave of sympathy and opinion in favour of migrants or somehow shatter the blinkers people had been using to filter the perilous sea crossings and drownings out of their consciousness even though they had been occurring for months....this new year incident seems to have worked in exactly the same way....odd to still see the Rotherham / nothing to see here card being played though...
 
Statistics and whining moral relativism will not make the consequences of NYE disappear. There is a very real shock wave running thru Germany at the moment.
 
You may not have noticed but the ME and north africa are rapidly becoming a no go zone for westerners.


Well the bits we're bombing are. That doesn't really surprise me. And a friend who went to help with the olive harvest in the West Bank was viciously attacked by Israeli settlers recently, but providing you avoid the frontline and hobnobbing with Palestinian farmers, you should be alright. And anyway as you are so keen to scaremonger about, there are plenty of folk from the Middle East here. Why not go smoke a shisha pipe down the Edgware Road and chat to your neighours.
 
Egypt and Tunisia are going that way. It's not something to joke about.

No, they aren't. Both countries are massively reliant on money brought in by tourism. They've been through massive social upheaval in the last few years, but that doesn't mean that all the locals suddenly hate westerners.
 
Well refugees are not some homogenous bloc are they? To group them en masse is not particularly helpful.I admit, I am less than impressed by the cultural and religious oppression against women which has been in evidence across the middle east and anywhere, in fact, where religion, propagated by bitter old men, has been in the ascendant, fuelling the power imbalances resulting from late capitalism. Just another nasty set of oppressions. Furthermore, regardless of their country or culture of origin, I am firmly convinced that these shitters knew exactly what they were doing and that it was wrong - this is not cultural difference or ignorance - wrong, vicious and hateful.
The trend for describing national or cultural values has been dismissed as some sort of RW lunacy, harking backwards to impossible pasts but I do think that these conversations are worth having...along with some very uncomfortable real world issues such as dispersal, assimilation, integration, even prosaic but critical issues such as housing and infrastructure. One of the paradoxes of mass diasporas has been a very human desire to congregate with familiars - people like you...and here, also lies an element of danger and tension. For example, I recall the many recent fulminations regarding travellers. Personally, traveller men are not my favourite people - they often have lousy attitudes towards women and even worse attitudes towards non-travellors ...and I would find my tolerance tested to the limit if an encampment of 100 caravans appeared overnight at the end of my street(exacerbated by several personal deeply upsetting episodes where our lives have intersected). It is one thing to have ideals of fairness, equality and tolerance in a vacuum and another altogether when real world conditions impact on lives. Housing for example. The UK is experiencing something of a crisis which can only be worsened with any sudden influx of people from country or culture whatsoever. The govt. response of dumping has been a disaster for refugees and locals of small seaside towns which do not fit into a metropolitan, middle-class worldview. And for certain, refugee centres will not be appearing in Kensington or Westminster anytime soon So a detached, Guardian class of lefties will continue to spout piffle since their comfort and security is not likely to be impacted in any way. In working class estates in Manchester, Nottingham, Burnley and Teeside are going to have different lived experiences which, quite likely, will be dismissed as per. The horrible, unvarnished truth, for me at least, is that my priorities largely concern people close to me, especially when they are struggling with a deeply unfair housing situation...and to think that I would put a refugee's welfare above my children's is just not going to happen. Maybe if they were all securely housed instead of living in vans, lock-ups and squats. Ultimately, the working class in this country will find themselves experiencing more third world conditions because this imbalance is one of the conditions of a fully global capitalism. Maybe I will be able to make common cause with refugees - maybe not all of them, maybe not young men, especially not sexist young men. I dunno. I am, however, being honest as to where my priorities lie in any coming struggles and at present, it certainly isn't likely to be with groping men.
I realise I come across as selfish and even traitorously racist...but this anxiety is also at the root of the exodus towards the likes of UKIP...a step too far for me.
 
No, I think actually you're dismissing the importance of the assault, rape and murder of women that happens everyday by making it something special that those other men (not our nice European ones) do.

This to me seems to be a very important point.

What happened sounds like a particularly large-scale and unpleasant variant on established forms of street crime (the Germans already had a word for it 'Antänzer')

Street robbery frequently exhibits acts of dominance over the victim and regrettably, this frequently takes the form of sexual assault and the victims singled out are frequently women.

None of this has any essential connection to the ethnicity of the attackers.
 
This to me seems to be a very important point.

What happened sounds like a particularly large-scale and unpleasant variant on established forms of street crime (the Germans already had a word for it 'Antänzer')

Street robbery frequently exhibits acts of dominance over the victim and regrettably, this frequently takes the form of sexual assault and the victims singled out are frequently women.

None of this has any essential connection to the ethnicity of the attackers.

So why is this the first year we are talking about such things happening in Germany on NYE?
 
that's my point.

why is this one night in one city being talked about as being so bad, when statistically, it isn't significant.
I agree with a lot of what you've said on here - I see this in the context of high levels of mens violence against women, and I don't think the actions of the individual men involved were that much different to what men do all the time.
However I think there are valid reasons to talk about this: the numbers involved and possible level of organisation (and it was in several cities); the fear that this has provoked for women in Germany and elsewhere (and there is something scary about being attacked by such a large group of men that is different to the violence and harassment from individual men and small groups of men which many women are used to facing); the way the media, police, and politicians dealt with it or didn't report it at first; working out how to prevent this happening again; the use the right has put this too, and working out how to counter it, and the effect this will have on refugees and all migrants (men and women);.
 
Well, you might have noticed that everybody is all stirred up about immigration and the middle east refugee crisis. Could be a connection?

Oh we are talking about because everyone "is all stirred up about immigration", not because it's never happened on this scale on NYE in Germany before.
 
that's my point.

why is this one night in one city being talked about as being so bad, when statistically, it isn't significant.

of course ti's significant to the victims. it must have been terrifying.

but the location and the victim demographics make this more newsworthy than the mass graves of women who were too old for isis to enslave and rape, and the fact that thousands of other women were assaulted in europe that week and no one who is pontificating on cologne gives much of a fuck about them.
quite possibly statistically significant for the city. don't think the charlie hebdo murders statistically significant for paris but for some reason people made a lot of it :confused:
 
Also according to some witness statements there were 3 men giving the others instructions, sending them off to abuse.

Now that is out of the ordinary..

( it was in the Guardian so it might not be true , can provide link if needed )
 
I'm not the fucking mayor of cologne though, am I . I'm not issuing directives to the general public as to how they should " conduct " themselves. Merely stating that if I was a woman in cologne I'd personally avoid any concentrations of young Arab men / north African men out of fears for my own safety .

The mayor of cologne though is lecturing her constituents on their code of conduct, as if their behaviour is the problem and not the other way about. Issuing a code of conduct to women and not the fucking criminals and rapists .

What, like Brits were told to be wary and watchful of Irish people in the 70's/early 80s, because some Irish people were engaged in military action? Some apparently North African men have behaved disgustingly, and you feel its ok to say women should be wary of North African men?
 
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