Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Mr Moose]

Comparing London and Cologne only make the Cologne events look worse - London has ten times the population and loads of people visit for NYE.

In theory men from countries where women aren't as respected, especially women who dress in clothing that doesn't cover everything, would be more of an assault risk, but I have to say that I've never noticed tons of hassle from the Bengalis in my area, where they are a majority, or noticed anything odd (in body language or comments) about any of my Syrian or ME male students. So this mass attack is extra confusing to me.

Tbh many men particularly intoxicated can quickly coalesce into this type of group behaviour. I remember many years ago in Trafalgar Sq loads of blokes trying to snog my then girlfriend with the situation soon becoming uncomfortable for us both and we slunk off to the side streets.

I doubt these men really planned as much as is made out. They just planned to get together and act up a bit.

Women are really at the bottom though aren't they? First concern appears to be with people who weren't either the perps or the victims. I get why and the racism should be opposed vehemently, but first consideration should be about educating all men.

 

[J Ed]

Those responsible for the assaults should be deported.

 

[bimble]

Tbh many men particularly intoxicated can quickly coalesce into this type of group behaviour. I remember many years ago in Trafalgar Sq loads of blokes trying to snog my then girlfriend with the situation soon becoming uncomfortable for us both and we slunk off to the side streets.

I doubt these men really planned as much as is made out. They just planned to get together and act up a bit.

This does not sound like 'high spirits' and trying to get a snog off strangers to me (I know what you mean, have seen that stuff you describe happening to you your GF) but 60 + women reported that they were attacked here.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Those responsible for the assaults should be deported.

You have no real evidence that any of them were not born in Germany. Bit soon to conclude this isn't it?

Also if any of them are asylum seekers where would you deport them to?

 

[Mr Moose]

This does not sound like 'high spirits' and trying to get a snog off strangers to me (I know what you mean, have seen that stuff you describe happening to you your GF) but 60 + women reported that they were attacked here.

Sorry, not trying to trivialise - I think it's abhorrent and a sad aspect of some male group behaviour.

 

[frogwoman]

I hope the women who experienced this are getting some sort of support.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Why does it mention their alleged "race" at all?

If reporting the alleged race of the attackers is not considered to be relevant then it follows the reporting of the sex of the alleged victims must also be disallowed. And to be entirely consistent omit to mention the alleged incident occurred in Germany as well.

 

[J Ed]

You have no real evidence that any of them were not born in Germany. Bit soon to conclude this isn't it?

I was going on the report of their status upthread. Obviously those not born in Germany cannot be deported.

 

[dessiato]

Not to in any way to suggest that this situation is less than serious, and should be treated that way, the BBC articles said 80 assaults, which was revised upwards to 90. As I said this doesn't lessen the seriousness of these attacks but it is different to claiming, as the thread title does, "100 of women" assaulted.

Sensational reporting doesn't help the cause.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I was going on the report of their status upthread. Obviously those not born in Germany cannot be deported.

So what be an equal punishment to deportation?

 

[J Ed]

So what be an equal punishment to deportation?

I have no idea. The whole story makes me very angry, I don't think that Europe is going to be able to accept very many of these sorts of events without a very strong shift to the far-right very soon.

 

[8115]

I have no idea. The whole story makes me very angry, I don't think that Europe is going to be able to accept very many of these sorts of events without a very strong shift to the far-right very soon.

I am sure any cursory search of the news would provide many examples of vile sex crimes committed by white men. In fact, just as people with mental health difficulties in fact less likely to commit acts of violence than the average person it would not surprise me if people from ethnic groups presented as responsible for these crimes are also less likely to commit these crimes. Decades, if not hundreds of years of institutional child abuse and it takes Rochdale, with British Asian perpetrators to really stick in the public's mind. Don't let skewed reporting hide the real facts.

 

[trashpony]

Not to in any way to suggest that this situation is less than serious, and should be treated that way, the BBC articles said 80 assaults, which was revised upwards to 90. As I said this doesn't lessen the seriousness of these attacks but it is different to claiming, as the thread title does, "100 of women" assaulted.

Sensational reporting doesn't help the cause.

It's estimated that less than half of sexual assaults are reported. 80+ women in Cologne plus more in Stuttgart and Hamburg so I don't think hundreds is 'sensational' (or sensationalist as I assume that's what you meant). FWIW, I've been sexually assaulted on the street/tube 4 times and raped twice (indoors). I haven't reported any of those attacks.

FFS the nitpicking and focusing on the perps on this thread rather than the poor fucking victims of this shit is bloody despicable.

 

[Treacle Toes]

FFS the nitpicking and focusing on the perps on this thread rather than the poor fucking victims of this shit is bloody despicable.

There are very few details of the victims to focus on TBF. Everyone who has posted has condemned what has happened as far as I can see.

That said I get it...the focus is always on the perps and why/why not. There is always discussion about the whys and whatnots as to why the perps behave as they do.

 

[bimble]

FFS the nitpicking and focusing on the perps on this thread rather than the poor fucking victims of this shit is bloody despicable.

What is there to say about the victims? Nothing apart from how sorry we feel, how fucking awful this whole story is, how we hope they are getting some sort of support and that some sort of justice will be done.

The focus is on / discussion is about the perps for the same reason it always is, or should be anyway - unless you want to discuss what the women were wearing or something? It sounds harsh but I don't really get your point tbf.

 

[Casually Red]

Sounds horrible for the victims. But this story is a bit odd at present, possibly because it hasn't been reported well. A thousand men got together and decided to go on a robbery and assault spree? How would that even occur? How would they decide on this apparently coordinated action while drunk?

On the refugee issue, seems a bit odd that many (if any) refugees would jeapardise their chance of citizenship to go on a drunken rampage.

If it was organised itd be safe to assume they decided to do it before they got drunk . And communicated with each other by a variety of means, including social media and mobile phone . And face to face .

 

[Patteran]

If reporting the alleged race of the attackers is not considered to be relevant then it follows the reporting of the sex of the alleged victims must also be disallowed. And to be entirely consistent omit to mention the alleged incident occurred in Germany as well.

I think it's a reference to the uselessness of 'race' as a concept to describe anything other than racism. Reporting their nationality may be relevant - helpful, even, in terms of identification - but race is a blind alley - or a deliberate falsity. We can discuss the impact & relevance of culture, ethnicity, nationality, economics even, without recourse to race. I think that's what Phil is getting at.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

We can discuss the impact & relevance of culture, ethnicity, nationality, economics even, without recourse to race.

Isn't ethnicity just another word for race?

 

[Patteran]

Isn't ethnicity just another word for race?

I didn't think so - my dictionary says 'the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition'.

 

[hot air baboon]

....well this looks a load of tripe ....

A press conference hosted by Cologne’s chief of police Wolfgang Albers this afternoon confirmed the attacks had been perpetrated by migrants, all of whom were found to be carrying official immigration paperwork by police officers at the time.

....it appears some suspects were apprehended on the night & have now been released from lack of evidence...but known gangs of "North Africans" have been operating around the station & cathedral for some time....

Cologne police have 'no leads' on sex attacks

...so they're now going to have to do it the hard way compiling all the witness evidence from dozens of extremely upset crime victims, hundreds of random witnesses and any cctv...

Threatens the perpetrator of the deportation from Germany?

Whether also refugees or asylum-seekers were among the perpetrators, so is still unclear. But even if that was going to confirm, does not threaten the men's deportation to their homeland.

Reason: The Federal Republic shall postpone politically or religiously persecuted people from only when they were transferred to serious crimes. This refers: manslaughter or murder. Sexual assault or theft is not sufficient for it.

But foreigners with tolerated status are deported regularly - if they have been sentenced to one year's imprisonment.

 

[Pickman's model]

....well this looks a load of tripe ....



....it appears some suspects were apprehended on the night & have now been released from lack of evidence...but known gangs of "North Africans" have been operating around the station & cathedral for some time....

Cologne police have 'no leads' on sex attacks

...so they're now going to have to do it the hard way compiling all the witness evidence from dozens of extremely upset crime victims, hundreds of random witnesses and any cctv...

Threatens the perpetrator of the deportation from Germany?

Whether also refugees or asylum-seekers were among the perpetrators, so is still unclear. But even if that was going to confirm, does not threaten the men's deportation to their homeland.

Reason: The Federal Republic shall postpone politically or religiously persecuted people from only when they were transferred to serious crimes. This refers: manslaughter or murder. Sexual assault or theft is not sufficient for it.

But foreigners with tolerated status are deported regularly - if they have been sentenced to one year's imprisonment.

surely all witnesses to crimes in public places are random

 

[scifisam]

I think saying that women aren't as respected in these other countries is a bit of a leap, a lot of people would disagree with you. Cultural differences are more complicated than that.

And it's not as simple as, legs out, going to get assaulted, because sexual violence against women is a lot more complex than that.

I am somewhat aware of what sexual violence is, thanks. However, in this situation we actually are talking about what random physical sexual assaults on women in public.

A lot of people would disagree about women being less respected in the ME but TBH that's stretching cultural relativism too far; it does, of course, vary from country to country, but in general the more power religion has - any religion, not just Islam - the fewer rights women have (look at the most religious US states and abortion rights, for example). Still, that absolutely does not equate to men from those religious countries acting like the men in Cologne and Hamburg on NYE, attacking random women as an enormous group (and not as soldiers in a war) - if they were from that region at all. That would be bizarre behaviour for any country or culture.

 

[frogwoman]

I think we need to wait for more info tbh.

 

[8115]

Cologne police have 'no leads' on sex attacks

This is worth reading for a plausible sounding explanation of how events unfolded.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think we need to wait for more info tbh.

that's not the urban way

 

[phildwyer]

I think it's a reference to the uselessness of 'race' as a concept to describe anything other than racism. Reporting their nationality may be relevant - helpful, even, in terms of identification - but race is a blind alley - or a deliberate falsity. We can discuss the impact & relevance of culture, ethnicity, nationality, economics even, without recourse to race. I think that's what Phil is getting at.

That's pretty much it. There's no such thing as race in any scientific sense. It's false consciousness.

 

[phildwyer]

Isn't ethnicity just another word for race?

No. There's no biological component to ethnicity.

 

[trashpony]

What is there to say about the victims? Nothing apart from how sorry we feel, how fucking awful this whole story is, how we hope they are getting some sort of support and that some sort of justice will be done.

The focus is on / discussion is about the perps for the same reason it always is, or should be anyway - unless you want to discuss what the women were wearing or something? It sounds harsh but I don't really get your point tbf.

Except that a lot of people haven't even bothered to say that.

I don't know why people are so surprised about this happening. So-called 'Eve-teasing' is a massive issue in South Asia so I can quite imagine a bunch of fuckwits chatting on social media about NYE being an ideal opportunity to go out en masse to humiliate and belittle women.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

No. There's no biological component to ethnicity.

Since there's more genetic variation within a race than there is between them, you can argue that there isn't for race either.

 

[phildwyer]

Since there's more genetic variation within a race than there is between them, you can argue that there isn't for race either.

That's exactly what I would argue. But people who believe in race claim that it's biological.