Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

Many people have already concluded precisely that. Take a look at ye internete.

what, from the bbc article?

 

[frogwoman]

I don't see how one article on the bbc website could have made "many people" conclude something that they couldn't have from the actual event itself

censoring part of the description of the suspects isn't going to help

 

[bi0boy]

It's racist to identify suspected rapists now is it? I thought dwyer was banned?

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought dwyer was banned?

sadly not the case as he embarks on another fuckwit-a-thon to bugger up another thread

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Many people have already concluded precisely that. Take a look at ye internete.

Internet racists will make racist conclusions regardless of anything said in a newspaper. The conclusion that many people will make, however, is that the sudden upsurge in the numbers of refugees has meant that vetting for unsavoury characters has been lacking. And they might well be right to conclude that.

The granting of asylum is one of the most important obligations we have in Europe; if we don't make sure it happens in a safe way, it puts the very principle at risk. That doesn't help anyone, least of all the hundreds of thousands of people who are fleeing for their lives and expecting a stable, lawful society at the end of their journey.

 

[camouflage]

If, as the article seems to imply, the attackers were all recently arrived as refugees, then it certainly is newsworthy given the community tensions we all know exist in Germany. Ignoring that aspect of the story just gives more strength to the likes of Pegida, who thrive off of the idea that the 'PC Brigade' (or German equivalent) are leading the country to the dogs. The only way to dampen such tensions are to stamp down hard on the perpetrators, regardless of race.

Perhaps, but maybe they were also guested 'freedom fighters', as happened in a British city recently when a bunch of Libyans being trained at the local barracks raped some guy.

 

[camouflage]

Internet racists will make racist conclusions regardless of anything said in a newspaper. The conclusion that many people will make, however, is that the sudden upsurge in the numbers of refugees has meant that vetting for unsavoury characters has been lacking. And they might well be right to conclude that.

The granting of asylum is one of the most important obligations we have in Europe; if we don't make sure it happens in a safe way, it puts the very principle at risk. That doesn't help anyone, least of all the hundreds of thousands of people who are fleeing for their lives and expecting a stable, lawful society at the end of their journey.

I think a major issue here is the disconnect. Angela Merkel for example had no problem backing the proxy war for regime change in Syria for example, had no problem with the proxy war in Libya... thousands dead, infrastructure destroyed, armed criminals and lunatics backed by NATO bombs etc (in a larger context EU leaders have no problem with the neo-liberal rampages unleashed on the global south). But when the resultant refugees of these injustices come streaming into Europe it's all helpfullness and concern.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think a major issue here is the disconnect. Angela Merkel had no problem backing the proxy war for regime change in Syria for example, had no problem with the proxy war in Libya... thousands dead, infrastructure destroyed etc. And in a larger context EU leaders have no problem with the economic injustice that keeps the produce of farmers in Africa and Asia etc out of Europe, but suddenly it's all concern and helpfullness when the inevitable refugee floods from these wars and IMFuckings come streaming into Europe. Cake and eat it.

to be fair the proxy wars in the middle east largely between iran and saudi arabia with the european countries taking a bit of a back seat. oh: and germany abstained on the un security council resolution authorising force against gaddaffi.

 

[irf520]

The conclusion that many people will make, however, is that the sudden upsurge in the numbers of refugees has meant that vetting for unsavoury characters has been lacking. And they might well be right to conclude that.

Well indeed they might. How the hell are you supposed to 'vet' anyone coming from somewhere that's all shot to shit? They've probably got no papers, even if they have they could be fake. Their records back home could have been destroyed or could be in IS held territory. Plus it's an obvious tactic for IS to use the refugee stream to infiltrate their operatives.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well indeed they might. How the hell are you supposed to 'vet' anyone coming from somewhere that's all shot to shit? They've probably got no papers, even if they have they could be fake. Their records back home could have been destroyed or could be in IS held territory. Plus it's an obvious tactic for IS to use the refugee stream to infiltrate their operatives.

their operatives are as paris showed already here. and were before last year. fucking engage brain or piss off.

 

[frogwoman]

Well indeed they might. How the hell are you supposed to 'vet' anyone coming from somewhere that's all shot to shit? They've probably got no papers, even if they have they could be fake. Their records back home could have been destroyed or could be in IS held territory. Plus it's an obvious tactic for IS to use the refugee stream to infiltrate their operatives.

There've been reports of ex-Assad fighters coming in with refugees as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

There've been reports of ex-Assad fighters coming in with refugees as well.

everyone wants to come to europe

 

[camouflage]

to be fair the proxy wars in the middle east largely between iran and saudi arabia with the european countries taking a bit of a back seat.../QUOTE]

nah, I don't buy that. not to say Saudi isn't balls deep mind

 

[phildwyer]

Internet racists will make racist conclusions regardless of anything said in a newspaper. The conclusion that many people will make, however, is that the sudden upsurge in the numbers of refugees has meant that vetting for unsavoury characters has been lacking. And they might well be right to conclude that.

That would be a ridiculous and illogical conclusion. For a start there's no evidence connecting this incident to refugees.

However you're correct that many people will leap to this illogical conclusion. They will do so because the media will continue to emphasize the "appearance" (a.k.a. the "race") of the attackers, thus implying a causal relation between their race and the attacks.

 

[Teaboy]

Perhaps, but maybe they were also guested 'freedom fighters', as happened in a British city recently when a bunch of Libyans being trained at the local barracks raped some guy.

I seem to recall it was a lot worse then that.

 

[phildwyer]

It's racist to identify suspected rapists now is it?

Fuck off.

 

[irf520]

their operatives are as paris showed already here. and were before last year.

And that implies there aren't any more on their way?

 

[frogwoman]

in terms of the IS threat from refugees it's massively overstated, most refugees are trying to get away from the conflict zone and many are fleeing ISIS and Al-Nusra etc. however one of the reports i've read concerns the idea of of refugees coming into contact and being recruited in Europe by members of various groups that are already here, and their experiences in the war and bad treatment at the hands of European police etc making them far more susceptible to such a message. there are reports that this has already happened, with some refugees reporting daesh recruiters to the police.

there does need to be far better vetting as well as accommodation and stability for the refugees that have arrived. i'd say the terrorist threat from refugees is a secondary consideration compared to the issue that with all sorts of people fleeing there will be at least a few people who have been convicted of crimes in their own country, or committed crimes and were not caught, because it's not a select group of people fleeing, it's everyone, if there was a civil war in the UK all sorts of people would flee to other countries and that includes people who may be guilty of serious crimes.

not doing this sufficiently puts the whole principle at risk and will put even more people's lives in danger, not least the people who have fled war and are innocent and want a safe and dignified life.

 

[Pickman's model]

And that implies there aren't any more on their way?

you clearly haven't followed the history of the jihadi movement in europe. why not find out a spot and then come back.

 

[Brainaddict]

Sounds horrible for the victims. But this story is a bit odd at present, possibly because it hasn't been reported well. A thousand men got together and decided to go on a robbery and assault spree? How would that even occur? How would they decide on this apparently coordinated action while drunk?

On the refugee issue, seems a bit odd that many (if any) refugees would jeapardise their chance of citizenship to go on a drunken rampage.

 

[irf520]

there does need to be far better vetting

Yes, but how? They don't have any documents and their records are quite likely destroyed or inaccessible.

as well as accommodation and stability for the refugees that have arrived.

We can't even provide that for people already here.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sounds horrible for the victims. But this story is a bit odd at present, possibly because it hasn't been reported well. A thousand men got together and decided to go on a robbery and assault spree? How would that even occur? How would they decide on this apparently coordinated action while drunk?

On the refugee issue, seems a bit odd that many (if any) refugees would jeapardise their chance of citizenship to go on a drunken rampage.

yes it's an odd story: but something definitely happened.

 

[Sea Star]

no they're not. perhaps you should read the rest of the article too, which seemed to me to be quite fair.

The way I see it - if the cop that was quoted said something that was racist then surely that should be reported, rather than ignored. It doesn't make the article racist.

 

[Pickman's model]

The way I see it - if the cop that was quoted said something that was racist then surely that should be reported, rather than ignored. It doesn't make the article racist.

yeh but phildwyer doesn't think race should be reported at all, the sort of thing you described would, he believes, be better swept under the carpet: that's the objective nature of his position.

 

[Sirena]

Sounds horrible for the victims. But this story is a bit odd at present, possibly because it hasn't been reported well. A thousand men got together and decided to go on a robbery and assault spree? How would that even occur? How would they decide on this apparently coordinated action while drunk?

On the refugee issue, seems a bit odd that many (if any) refugees would jeapardise their chance of citizenship to go on a drunken rampage.

Over the decades (particularly the early 90s) coordinated gangs of youths used to come to Brixton to do mob criminality at the various events at Brockwell Park because, if you want to do steaming or grab-and-flee crime, crowds are good places.

There were 80 reported assaults in Cologne (not the 'hundreds' of the OP). In London, there were 50 arrests on New Years' Eve and one rape.

Last Carnival, there were 400 arrests over the weekend. Presumably, most of those would have been of black people.

 

[Brainaddict]

A video:

 

[Sea Star]

. edit: not getting involved

 

[Brainaddict]

The video seems to confirm what I'd suspected. That there were a bunch of men, most of whom were standing around, but some of whom got properly rowdy and intimidating - and then some groups, probably relatively few, went around mugging and assaulting. Grim, but not a thousand criminals on the rampage as the phrasing of many write-ups seems to suggest. Let's wait and see what comes out in time, but I suspect some of the headlines are outright irresponsible, and have a very large axe to grind.

 

[phildwyer]

The video seems to confirm what I'd suspected. That there were a bunch of men, most of whom were standing around, but some of whom got properly rowdy and intimidating - and then some groups, probably relatively few, went around mugging and assaulting. Grim, but not a thousand criminals on the rampage as the phrasing of many write-ups seems to suggest. Let's wait and see what comes out in time, but I suspect some of the headlines are outright irresponsible, and have a very large axe to grind.

Note how the video describes what it shows as "Muslims attacking Germans." That's what people will see.

 

[Pickman's model]

The video seems to confirm what I'd suspected. That there were a bunch of men, most of whom were standing around, but some of whom got properly rowdy and intimidating - and then some groups, probably relatively few, went around mugging and assaulting. Grim, but not a thousand criminals on the rampage as the phrasing of many write-ups seems to suggest. Let's wait and see what comes out in time, but I suspect some of the headlines are outright irresponsible, and have a very large axe to grind.

glad you're able to declare without a shadow of a doubt what was going on on the basis of one brief video