Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[emanymton]

All that's true, but it's only part of what I was saying. My main point was that the presence of refugees from the wars of Western imperialism in Europe is the result of the wars of Western imperialism.

If that presence proves problematic, as the Cologne incidents suggests it may, then we see here an instance of "blowback," the unintended and unpleasant consequences of an aggressively imperialist foreign policy.

But that 'blowback' doesn't hit the people responsible. Which is why your phrasing seems do crass and unpleasant.

 

[Casually Red]

Two links that don't work but I've read everything that you have. The point is that it would be all but impossible for the cops to ascertain with 100% accuracy, in the heat of the moment, those that are being deliberately obstructive and those that are just pissed-up revellers in a large crowd.

Fire into the crowd.

Fucking hell.

Well if you choose to include watching gang rapes and sexual assaults as part of your nights partying then that's the risk you run. If you choose to remain partying in a crowd that's raping and assaulting women left right and centre and preventing attempts to rescue them then hardcore is probably your bag .

I can only assume then you'd also regard it as highly irresponsible for a woman who was armed to use a weapon to defend herself in that situation . Because there's no essential difference .

You can't seriously be suggesting that would be an overreaction ?

 

[Spymaster]

It's relevant where people are asking 'why are they here?' And people on this thread have been asking that.

Not that I've noticed.

 

[phildwyer]

Hmmm, I going to risk a ripping apart here...

I think while you shouldn't of course say the sole (or even main) cause is due to what you suggest, you could construct an fairly convincing argument that the destruction of communities, the increased levels of alienation of people from their roots/families/cultural connections, and the insecurity, individualism, and poverty that Thatcherism encouraged did on some level contribute to a society where sexual attacks and assaults were going to inevitably become more commonplace. (Plus - and mainly - patriarchy/capitalism, etc.)

Exactly. It is reactionary madness to exclude social and geo-political factors from influence on crime.

Some people seem to find relief, or security, perhaps gratification, in raging denunciations of criminals, and they insist that this criticism must be limited to the criminal's evil personality if it is to avoid falling into some wishy-washy arty farty trendy Lefty trap. I'm not one of them.

 

[phildwyer]

And to explain is not necessarily to excuse.

I don't know why so many people neglect this utterly obvious and not unimportant consideration.

 

[D'wards]

Do you mean senteneced to two years or actually serving 2 years? From my experience in my field of work, that is even harder to do and in fact rarely seems to happen.

Sentenced to 2 years or over. It happens all the time now - especially if they are from a country where the situation has improved since refugee status was granted. Syria and Burma are the only two problem countries at the moment - although there are many other countries where you cannot really claim asylum from, but you cannot be forcibly removed to - Iran, Zimbabwe, Palestine. People with a Deportation Order against them from those countries are in a sort of limbo - they cannot work, claim benefits, use the NHS for free (theoretically) or even drive in this country - the idea to make it so hard for them they fuck off back to their country.

 

[phildwyer]

Four causes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you may have misread your audience here Bernie.

 

[crossthebreeze]

So what, it's ok for Turkish women to be raped? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - somehow this shouldn't have to be our problem. Let the Turks sort it out, or someone else, anyone else.

Actually i think having a proper system where people could apply for asylum in the EU from outside of the EU (so long as a decent amount of refugees were actually taken in - not just the pitiful number the UK is taking) would solve lots of problems - though it'll probably never happen. There are more female refugees in the world than male refugees, yet the obsession with fortress europe means that young men are much more likely to have the physical and financial means to overcome the immense obstacles to make it to western europe. It would ease the pressures on countries like turkey and greece massively, stop the deaths at sea, and keep populations balanced and communities together.

 

[Spymaster]

Well if you choose to include watching gang rapes and sexual assaults as part of your nights partying then that's the risk you run. If you choose to remain partying in a crowd that's raping and assaulting women left right and centre and preventing attempts to rescue them then hardcore is probably your bag .

You're assuming that everyone in the crowd, or even nearby, knew what was going on.

I can only assume then you'd also regard it as highly irresponsible for a woman who was armed to use a weapon to defend herself in that situation . Because there's no essential difference .

You've finally lost the fucking plot completely, geezer.

 

[phildwyer]

dwyer may be a bit all over the place on this too, but he has one valid point, which is that these refugees are here in Europe as a consequence of European imperialism, dating back as far as the end of WW1.

Yes. Although my point was actually directed specifically against the recent (21st century) wars of Western imperialism, which have caused the current refugee crisis, as many of us predicted they would.

 

[Athos]

I think you may have misread your audience here Bernie.

Yep, more Four Candles than Four Causes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not good, not sure what she is saying..

She seems to be saying that a 3rd party (perhaps the Euro-right, perhaps Islamists) may have been behind NYE.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Women=collateral damage

It's ever been thus, and not just in Europe, but everywhere.

 

[emanymton]

Also, it still isn't clear to me what the primary focus of the NYE attacks were - a loose resentment, opportunistic criminality, a definite and pointed message to women? I still have not ascertained whether any attacks on other men occurred (which would, imo, shed a different light on the incidents).

I tend towards thinking it was opportunistic and robbery was the main objective.

What terrifies me about this, and the incidents of mass rape discussed earlier is that in part it seems to result from men simply being in a situation where they feel they can get away with it. Just how many men are prepared to rape when in a consequence free environment. I really worry that it could be a lot more than we would like to think.

 

[phildwyer]

Dwyer's 'chickens home to roost' comment reminded me of people saying similar after the Paris attacks, 'we reap what we sow' pass me the sick bucket. I mean how far do we wanna go back in history in trying to relate western imperialism to why some fuck head chooses to rape and molest women? The industrial revolution? The voyages of Columbus?

I honestly don't understand why you think it's harmful, or immoral, to pursue the maximum amount of knowledge in order to achieve the fullest possible understanding of events. Why do you insist that we limit our response to denunciations of the criminals' evil personalities? What's your problem with history?

 

[hot air baboon]

I still have not ascertained whether any attacks on other men occurred (which would, imo, shed a different light on the incidents).

....doesn't appear so according to this witness / victim...

"I screamed for help but everywhere I looked the same thing was happening; attack and robbery. But just women. They targeted us because we were women."

 

[ViolentPanda]

Apparently Deutsche Welle (DW) DW.Com(German BBC) Journos tweeted from Cologne on NYE, presumably from the city centre, maybe even the Square, how did they miss what was going on?

Probably because they weren't looking for what went on, but rather were looking for the usual NYE bullshit celebratory stuff to file about. Bear in mind that 90% of journalists are not investigative - they merely file stories that they've been tasked to write.

 

[crossthebreeze]

All this talk about vetting/background checking refugees would have prevented this - fair enough some of these men might be generally dodgy characters with a history of organised crime - but there's no evidence yet that the vast majority were. How likely is it for your average violent misogynist to have a conviction for rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment in this country, let alone in Syria or wherever?

 

[Gramsci]

Pegida march live on Ruptly youtube at mo. Doesn't seem to be a large mobilization.

According to the World Service reporter on the scene the turn out for Pegida is much smaller than the counter demo.

 

[phildwyer]

The mentioning of wessssssstern foreign policy in this thread really is an example of that most risible kneejerk cliché anti imperialist cartoon crap. Even read as a trite observation that history determines the present and the presence of numbers of refugees in Europe. Well so what.

Among other things, if we fail to take Western imperialism into account, it will appear to us that these refugees appeared in Europe by magic. We will also be far more susceptible to racist interpretations of the events. And generally speaking, it's a good idea to understand why bad things happen, in order to prevent them from happening again.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

All this talk about vetting/background checking refugees would have prevented this - fair enough some of these men might be generally dodgy characters with a history of organised crime - but there's no evidence yet that the vast majority were. How likely is it for your average violent misogynist to have a conviction for rape/sexual assault/sexual harassment in this country, let alone in Syria or wherever?

'You're fleeing the war in Syria, you say? Well just hold on here, we need to get the Syrian authorities to do a crb check on you first.'

'What? Yes, those authorities. The ones you're running away from, that's right.'

 

[phildwyer]

Are you serious? Are you suggesting these assaults were politically motivated?

Obviously not. But they do have political causes.

 

[Gramsci]

Pipped to the post by this bloody idiot

‘Women shouldn’t hide away’: Swiss artist stages nude protest in Cologne after NYE assaults

Oblivious to the fact her " protest " is only likely to attract the bastards back .

Really? I think its a fair enough intervention.

“I will not let others decide what I should and shouldn't do as a woman, but rather, that it is self-evident that the 50 year-long struggle of emancipated women means that I can enjoy the life that I want, in liberty. This is why I am standing here today,” the 32-year-old artist added.

 

[crossthebreeze]

'You're fleeing the war in Syria, you say? Well just hold on here, we need to get the Syrian authorities to do a crb check on you first.'

'What? Yes, those authorities. The ones you're running away from, that's right.'

No i know - i'm not proposing it

 

[phildwyer]

But that 'blowback' doesn't hit the people responsible.

Not this time, not yet--or not much. But it has in the past, many times. Wait and see.

 

[Casually Red]

You're assuming that everyone in the crowd, or even nearby, knew what was going on.

You've finally lost the fucking plot completely, geezer.

It was going on for a considerable period of time and was quite noticeable, despite the media black out . It would have been impossible not to notice, it's an extremely small area. Hundreds of women were screaming . It wasn't because of a mouse or Harry fucking Styles rolling into town . It would have been obvious to anyone those scores of women were in serious trouble.

And no plot has been lost . A woman on the receiving end of that would be perfectly entitled to use lethal force to effect an escape. It wouldn't be an overreaction . Correspondingly a police officer attempting to rescue her would be just as entitled to use lethal force on her behalf to affect her escape from these animals . When a mob reaches that point of depravity then women's lives and not just their dignity is in serious danger . That level of force is justified in such circumstances . Whether in self defence or to defend the women .

 

[frogwoman]

But that 'blowback' doesn't hit the people responsible. Which is why your phrasing seems do crass and unpleasant.

CRB checks from Raqqa would be difficult.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They SHOULD be dealt with, right there in Germany (or wherever else they organise to carry out these attacks). Suggesting deporting them is to suggest moving the problem.

And moving it to a region where - due to the actions of domestic and foreign interests - such crimes would be easier to get away with.

 

[kittyP]

And to explain is not necessarily to excuse. To understand something of what goes in to the making of a rapist is not to say that any one individual rapist is not responsible for his actions.

Yes. People often seem to conflate reasons with excuses.

 

[campanula]

If I was a young Arab, I sincerely expect I would be utterly consumed with rage at the machinations of foreign policy, loathing and despising western powers with every fibre of my being...and to then be forced to seek refuge in the very countries responsible for my subjugation would, I have no doubt, lead me to incendiary levels of hatred...but, as we are seeing everywhere, society is breaking down into smaller categories and a nasty divide and rule manipulation appears to have become a default instinct. Consequently, rightly or wrongly, I will look for affirmation to the groups and affiliations which have been nourishing and supportive...and since my political education was focused on more on gender, rather than class, this is the highly likely to be where my personal battle-lines are drawn. I admit to feeling confused, angry, bewildered by these attacks and require more than mealy-mouthed excuses and absolutely lack the levels of tolerance and forgiveness to see roving groups of youngish men with anything other than an instinctive anxiety. I cannot see any workable solutions to what is, at bottom, a vicious re-allocation of diminishing resources...and suspect that many of us are going to be drawn into fighting to preserve a way of life which is being stolen from us by a rapacious minority of global capitalists. Cowardly sexual molestation of women does seem to mark the limit of my tolerance, I 'm afraid to say (damn me for a racist or western despot type)...and right now, I am finding it very hard indeed to find common cause with marauding bands of men.