Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Doctor Carrot]

what gives you the impression embassy staff in ankara should or could vet refugees sailing from bodrum to a greek island?

I meant before they started doing that or near the start of that happening in significant numbers. A big reason why they were sailing to greece is because they had to be in Europe's borders to get refugee status. I'm not saying it was necessarily possible to do, I dunno. I do know that there wasn't even an effort to coordinate such a process though.

 

[Casually Red]

And I mean a link to immediately indentifiable people obviously preventing police intervention, working in concert with the rapists, and firing rockets at the coppers.

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with the thread in total but the police report on the night, which has been linked to numerous times on thread , gives details of the tactics the attackers used . Large groups of migrants deliberately fenced off women who were being attacked from attempts by police to rescue them. Hence the discussion about perpetrators and active accomplices .

Here's a link, I'm sure there's many more . I've read plenty

Police Report of Cologne New Year’s Eve Details Chaos, Overwhelmed Force


Eta

And the fireworks, bottles thrown at them by the same people as they tried to save these fenced off women

.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...escription-as-women-attacked-and-a6802026.htm

 

[LiamO]

From (a considerable) distance...

This has been an ongoing problem in German cities for a long time.

Speak to any leftie/anarchist/crustie from Kreitzberg and they will tell you they have been having run-ins with gangs of turkish men over their hartrassment of passing, mostly western, women for 20 years or more.

 

[campanula]

My engagement with feminism, way back in the 70s was, above all else, an international sisterhood. When we read Mary Daly on footbinding and genital mutilation, we stood with our sisters against all oppressive practices...and this absolutely means taking a stand against oppression resulting from religious practice...just the most cursory examination of the Christian Right dispels any suggestion of finger pointing at Islam since it is perfectly clear that a certain type of religious fundamentalist would have us all cowering in the kitchen, subjugated to our husbands, traded between husbands even and existing as vehicles for endless procreation. Well fuck that - time to organise again, adopt some militancy and take our safety in our own hands since the flawed police institution (as we well know) is unwilling or incapable of protecting us. Refugees either stand with us or against us and we will not be silenced, pathetic Goldsmiths style, when we denounce these vile practices for the abominations that they are. Bollocks to tradition - I personally could not give even the tiniest fuck about arguing about shaved armpits but I swear I will fight for my daughter and grand-daughter to have freedom of expression and full and equal citizenship regardless of the machinations, omissions and evasions of an unfairly gendered establishment.

 

[Pickman's model]

I meant before they started doing that or near the start of that happening in significant numbers. A big reason why they were sailing to greece is because they had to be in Europe's borders to get refugee status. I'm not saying it was necessarily possible to do, I dunno. I do know that there wasn't even an effort to coordinate such a process though.

the upshot of what you"re saying is the migrants should have been kept in camps and applied for asylum from there, which i feel would have been neither feasible or desirable

 

[LiamO]

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with the thread in total but the police report on the night, which has been linked to numerous times on thread , gives details of the tactics the attackers used . Large groups of migrants deliberately fenced off women who were being attacked from attempts by police to rescue them. Hence the discussion about perpetrators and active accomplices .

Here's a link, I'm sure there's many more . I've read plenty

Police Report of Cologne New Year’s Eve Details Chaos, Overwhelmed Force

And if the crowd is 'sheltering' someone who is merely 'on the hop' from the plod for (for example) some fireworks related tomfoolery or even Police brutality? Just let them at it as you handed the plod them a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I once saw a man kicked near to death outside a pub while 30 of mates - if not his mates then certainly his brother's and family's - sat round looking into their pint pots. Why? Cos he had (wrongly, in fact) been labelled a nonce.

This stuff you are coming out with is very tempting, very juicy but is also completely (pardon the pun) un-Policeable once the ball starts rolling.

 

[campanula]

Sending off for my Mace aerosol screech alarm even now.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sending off for my Mace aerosol screech alarm even now.

a flak jacket might be useful too in case a copper decides to go all j ed on a crowd you're in

 

[Anudder Oik]

Sending off for my Mace aerosol screech alarm even now.

From the Mirror:

Nine of the top 10 bestselling items in the "Sport & Leisure" section on Amazon's German website on Friday were either pepper or CS gas sprays. The seventh-most popular item was a pepper spray shaped like a pink lipstick.

 

[rekil]

Caj Fash's vigilante group in a couple of years?

Neo-Nazis urinate on children in Berlin train

 

[hot air baboon]

...I'd have thought it a given that any modern urban police force has a full and ready panopoly of tactics and equipment to contain, disperse, kettle or otherwise subdue crowds of people as required without recourse to lethal force...although apparently they turned down an offer of extra men from Duisburg to help control the situation....

This has happened in many countries over the years, often due to wars started by the likes of the UK. Iran took millions of refugees after the US/British/NATO decided to invade Afghanistan. Other countries have had to deal with this kind of crisis lots of times.

...the "conspirosphere" latched onto this one recently as some sort of "play-book"...



In Weapons of Mass Migration, Kelly M. Greenhill offers the first systematic examination of this widely deployed but largely unrecognized instrument of state influence. She shows both how often this unorthodox brand of coercion has been attempted (more than fifty times in the last half century) and how successful it has been (well over half the time). She also tackles the questions of who employs this policy tool, to what ends, and how and why it ever works.

....it appears ofcourse largely the actions of Turkey that precipitated this current leg of the crisis .....and bearing in mind what we know they are up to on their eastern flank ...

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Putting aside the ridiculous idea of shooting randomly into crowds as a way of stopping this happening again, it strikes me as obvious that what needs to be done is that CCTV cameras be placed in all public areas where large crowds like this can gather, and that a law specifically targeted at this type of group assault needs to be introduced. Harsh punishment for those involved in carrying out attacks or hindering police intervention are certainly needed, but you've got to identify the actual criminals first.

 

[sovereignb]

I think this may have repercussions on our own immigration/asylum laws. In the UK if you commit a serious crime (one over 2 years imprisonment) its very hard to be granted asylum - near impossible, and if you already have refugee status it is cessated. The gov are always looking at further ways to make it harsher, and Germany have announced this so I expect Home Office to take the opportunity to tighten the system up even more.

Do you mean senteneced to two years or actually serving 2 years? From my experience in my field of work, that is even harder to do and in fact rarely seems to happen.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

the upshot of what you"re saying is the migrants should have been kept in camps and applied for asylum from there, which i feel would have been neither feasible or desirable

Desireable, no. It's undesireable they're there in the first place. I don't see how it would've been unfeasibe though, it's not like they would've had to go to ankara to apply. The British government apparently were able to take migrants directly from the camps and identify those most in need of asylum so I'm not sure how that's impossible with a coordinated effort from the EU, UN etc. Anyway bit late to discuss this now and it's a bit off topic.

 

[Casually Red]

And if the crowd is 'sheltering' someone who is merely 'on the hop' from the plod for (for example) some fireworks related tomfoolery or even Police brutality? Just let them at it as you handed the plod them a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I think I've made very clear, abundantly clear , I support the use of lethal force in order to prevent a gang rape from occurring right in front of police officers . Because a rape is an extremely grave and life altering form of assault that justifies a corresponding degree of force to prevent it .

Why you've decided to extrapolate that into I somehow support the powers being handed to police to shoot anyone for any incidence of law breaking is a mystery to me. But it's either bloody stupid or deliberately disingenuous .

Similarly a person should have the right to use lethal force to protect themselves or their family against rape or serious sexual assault. But plainly not from someone stealing their garden gnomes .

Do you see the difference ?

 

[Spymaster]

Maybe you haven't been keeping up with the thread in total but the police report on the night, which has been linked to numerous times on thread , gives details of the tactics the attackers used . Large groups of migrants deliberately fenced off women who were being attacked from attempts by police to rescue them. Hence the discussion about perpetrators and active accomplices .

Here's a link, I'm sure there's many more . I've read plenty

Police Report of Cologne New Year’s Eve Details Chaos, Overwhelmed Force


Eta

And the fireworks, bottles thrown at them by the same people as they tried to save these fenced off women

.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...escription-as-women-attacked-and-a6802026.htm

Two links that don't work but I've read everything that you have. The point is that it would be all but impossible for the cops to ascertain with 100% accuracy, in the heat of the moment, those that are being deliberately obstructive and those that are just pissed-up revellers in a large crowd.

Fire into the crowd.

Fucking hell.

 

[likesfish]

Cunts like that stop behaving like cunts when FORCED TOO cypriot yobbos rapidly learned sexually harrassing toursits on the strip would end badly, well it wasnt like we werent going to get into a punch up anywayso might as well do something useful.
Cypriot police saw it as win win yobbos got smacked and squaddies didnt punch tourists

 

[phildwyer]

Perhaps their presence but not their subsequent actions.

Yes, it was their presence to which I referred. Western foreign policy is responsible for their presence in Europe.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Yes, it was their presence to which I referred. Western foreign policy is responsible for their presence in Europe.

How is making this point relevant or helpful?

 

[phildwyer]

How is making this point relevant or helpful?

It's important to understand the geo-political context in which these crimes took place.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Pegida march live on Ruptly youtube at mo. Doesn't seem to be a large mobilization.

 

[campanula]

I really cannot feel totally comfortable with handing numerous extra powers to the police either...since that institution has it's own internal issues with sexism and racism.

 

[Casually Red]

And if the crowd is 'sheltering' someone who is merely 'on the hop' from the plod for (for example) some fireworks related tomfoolery or even Police brutality? Just let them at it as you handed the plod them a get-out-of-jail-free card?

I once saw a man kicked near to death outside a pub while 30 of mates - if not his mates then certainly his brother's and family's - sat round looking into their pint pots. Why? Cos he had (wrongly, in fact) been labelled a nonce.

This stuff you are coming out with is very tempting, very juicy but is also completely (pardon the pun) un-Policeable once the ball starts rolling.

You seem to be claiming I've suggested police just prowl the streets looking for suspected rapists and shooting them afterwards.

On this occasion police knew masses of women were being sexually assaulted and raped by this crowd . They knew because attacked women were coming to them in droves seeking protection, because one of their own female plain clothes officers was attacked .
They also knew because they could hear women screaming and saw them being assaulted and deliberately fenced off by mobs . This was right in front of them and they couldn't reach them . At that point they had a perfect right to use lethal force to rescue those women .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How is making this point relevant or helpful?

It's relevant where people are asking 'why are they here?' And people on this thread have been asking that.

 

[phildwyer]

What I think he is trying to say, and I think he is right. Is that men do not decide to become rapists in a vacuum their attitudes are shaped by the society they grow up in. Although of course everyone is unique and responds differently to the same experiences. In the case of the Middle East the societies these men have grown up in and their current situation has been massively shapped by Western foreign policy.

All that's true, but it's only part of what I was saying. My main point was that the presence of refugees from the wars of Western imperialism in Europe is the result of the wars of Western imperialism.

If that presence proves problematic, as the Cologne incidents suggests it may, then we see here an instance of "blowback," the unintended and unpleasant consequences of an aggressively imperialist foreign policy.

 

[frogwoman]

All that's true, but it's only part of what I was saying. My main point was that the presence of refugees from the wars of Western imperialism in Europe is the result of the wars of Western imperialism.

If that presence proves problematic, as the Cologne incidents suggests it may, then we see here an instance of "blowback," the unintended and unpleasant consequences of an aggressively imperialist foreign policy.

Are you serious? Are you suggesting these assaults were politically motivated?

 

[campanula]

Also, it still isn't clear to me what the primary focus of the NYE attacks were - a loose resentment, opportunistic criminality, a definite and pointed message to women? I still have not ascertained whether any attacks on other men occurred (which would, imo, shed a different light on the incidents).

 

[frogwoman]

All that's true, but it's only part of what I was saying. My main point was that the presence of refugees from the wars of Western imperialism in Europe is the result of the wars of Western imperialism.

If that presence proves problematic, as the Cologne incidents suggests it may, then we see here an instance of "blowback," the unintended and unpleasant consequences of an aggressively imperialist foreign policy.

What about Russian, Turkish imperialism?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I thought it was the pelloponesian war tbh

Sas was there when the last neanderthal was murdered.

 

[likesfish]

If your facing a big mob you either need a big mob of your own or prepared to use extremely excessive force