Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[xenon]

The mentioning of wessssssstern foreign policy in this thread really is an example of that most risible kneejerk cliché anti imperialist cartoon crap. Even read as a trite observation that history determines the present and the presence of numbers of refugees in Europe. Well so what.

Political circumstances, cultures, material conditions are of course pertinent to creating a safe, fair and prosperous society. Minimising bad outcomes… We know that already, meanwhile…
Those convicted of taking part in these attacks should face the German legal system of course. If they’re not German citizens, after serving their sentence deported where possible. For the asylum seakers, depending on the severity, the part they played precisely in any of those events, application turned down. As to just moving the problem else where. It’s not Germany’s obligation to keep the entire world safe. Locking people up in general just moves the problem elsewhere anyway. With out unlimited resources to psychologically repair people, even if that were possible and without perminannt incarseration being an option to go along with that, there’s not much else.

 

[J Ed]

So we're shooting people deliberately obstructing the cops, or everyone who happens to be in the way?

People who are knowingly obstructing the police from preventing a mass sexual assault spree, yes. Using less lethal forms of force would be preferable but if necessary the police should have been willing to threaten, and use, lethal force against these people yes.

 

[emanymton]

Clearly we have very different ideas about the sort of people who hang out in crowds which routinely sexually assault and rape women.

Really so every single person there routinely hangs out in crowds sexual assaulting women? Where the fuck did the women come from then? Where all the women that where attacked rapists? Any apparently we do have very different views on thesr people as I don't think think summary expectation by the police is the way to go.

I mean seriously, causally red is agreeing with you and Spymaster thinks you're going too far. That should tell you something.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

If anything remotely similar happens again they should just shoot into the crowd.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So what, it's ok for Turkish women to be raped? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - somehow this shouldn't have to be our problem. Let the Turks sort it out, or someone else, anyone else.

How the fuck did you infer that from what I said? I didn't say anything about 'let the turks sort it out' did I? I said Turkey because that's where millions of refugees went, same as lebanon and so on. If I'm saying, according to you 'it's ok for Turkish women to be raped' then what are you saying? Let thousands of rapists unvetted into Europe and let European women be raped because their governments are imperialist cunts?

 

[LiamO]

If anything remotely similar happens again they should just shoot into the crowd. If you are part of a crowd physically preventing a police officer from stopping someone being raped you are fair game.

mebbe they should use those specoial bullets that only hit the baddies when you fire into the crowd. You know, the ones that don't hit the goodies/victims

 

[treelover]

T

People asked that question about refugees anyway, before some of them decided to molest women on NYE. I think making an issue of the fact some are refugees plays into the right's hands. Those criminals from Morocco, Algeria etc deport them. Those criminals who are refugees, sling them in prison harsh I know but I don't have any sympathy for molesters.

The focus needs to be on, to repeat, hundreds of men went on a spree and the OB did next to fuck all about it. What is the number? Thousand or so was it? Again, say if all were Syrian refugees that means 99.9% of Syrian refugees aren't inclined to form into gangs and molest women. I think where Europe really fucked up and that let these people in is keeping the ridiculous rule of in order to claim asylum you have to be in Europe's borders. They should've allowed asylum applications to be made from Turkey in order to have a better chance of vetting who's coming in.

The thing is, you comdemn the police for not doing something, straight away,. yet one can argue it is the political climate which has developed, fostered by the greens/spd/die linke, even anti-fa, , that says migrants can do no wrong, that is is racist to suggest such a thing, that equivocates in the face of such brutalities in Cologne, that has led to them being fearful of actually doing their jobs. In fact, by holding migrants to less standards than other people in the city, they could be accused of a form of racism, its a right wing trope, but doesn't mean it is not correct.

 

[Athos]

People who are knowingly obstructing the police from preventing a mass sexual assault spree, yes. Using less lethal forms of force would be preferable but if necessary the police should have been willing to threaten, and use, lethal force against these people yes.

That assumes both the police and the people obstructing them knew that was what was happening. And that the obstruction was deliberate. And that innocent people wouldn't be killed. It's fucking bonkers, give it up.

 

[Spymaster]

And as for spymaster saying it was bollocks, suggesting any criminal act happens in a cultural, political, and social vacuum is ridiculous.

I suggested nothing of the sort. YOU suggested that Thatcherism may have created an environment where incidents of rape increased. You need to back that sort of assertion up with a fuck-lot more than 'I reckon'. Rape stats relevant to the given periods would be a reasonable starting point.

 

[J Ed]

That assumes both the police and the people obstructing them knew that was what was happening. And that the obstruction was deliberate. And that innocent people wouldn't be killed. It's fucking bonkers, give it up.

Read the Spiegel link I posted earlier, the police did know what was happening but were unable to intervene because they were prevented from doing so.

 

[Athos]

mebbe they should use those specoial bullets that only hit the baddies when you fire into the crowd. You know, the ones that don't hit the goodies/victims

Yes, those 'Less Bloody Sunday' rounds.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

T


The thing is, you comdemn the police for not doing something, straight away,. yet one can argue it is the political climate which has developed, fostered by the greens/spd/die linke, even anti-fa, , that says migrants can do no wrong, that is is racist to suggest such a thing, that equivocates in the face of such brutalities in Cologne, that has led to them being fearful of actually doing their jobs. In fact, by holding migrants to less standards than other people in the city, they could be accused of a form of racism, its a right wing trope, but doesn't mean it is not correct.

Yeah I get why they tried to hush it up, same as Rochdale last year (year before?) but that doesn't change the fact.

 

[Casually Red]

how about water cannons with dye ?
Break it up and you can then identify the fukkers and act accordingly.

Non lethal...but...every town in Germany now should have water cannon on standby on new years eve and the like ? In a country were the people generally behave themselves and don't go beyond a level of acceptable boisterousness ?

This is what I'm talking about about these policies badly affecting German society. The precautions to stop this happening again require Germans to give up their freedoms and live in a form of police state . That is seriously going to fuck those people off . And that in itself is going to lead to extremely serious resentment of migrants .

To give an example. Female friend of mine owns a bar in Berlin. Few years back she had a worry about criminals. I suggested installing CCTV. She went bonkers . Told me straight all her customers would boycott the place . This is people who crawled out from under the shadow of both the Gestapo and the Stasi. They hate that shit. And it's largely unnecessary for them . They behave, mostly .

The precautions necessary to combat these other crimes impinge greatly on their freedoms. That's going to create real resentment in Germany . Long term brooding resentment. Which is why the knee jerk pegida stuff doesn't worry me as much . It'll pass. The erosion and loss of freedoms won't though. They'll be permanent .

 

[xenon]

If anything remotely similar happens again they should just shoot into the crowd. If you are part of a crowd physically preventing a police officer from stopping someone being raped you are fair game.

This is a bit daft. Cause a stampeed in a crowded square, injure the victim / passers by.

Perhaps until the cops can get to them, could fire indelible ink, glue webbing at those aiding an assault.

/bit of a derail really.

 

[Spymaster]

People who are knowingly obstructing the police from preventing a mass sexual assault spree, yes.

And how do the police, in the moment, ascertain what people "know"?

Your suggestion is fucking preposterous.

 

[Athos]

J Ed If someone ever says 'penny for your thoughts', I suggest you sell.

 

[treelover]

The other issue it is often eqivocators like those on the left and others who are the first to object when programmes are set up to integrate newcomers or safeguards are put in place to ensure the transitions are smooth, etc.

 

[Casually Red]

So what, it's ok for Turkish women to be raped? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - somehow this shouldn't have to be our problem. Let the Turks sort it out, or someone else, anyone else.

Wtf ?

The Turks are not little children . We are not superior high and mighty holier than thou super westerners who have to take the world by the hand. The British empires gone. Lose that bloody attitude please .

 

[Casually Red]

mebbe they should use those specoial bullets that only hit the baddies when you fire into the crowd. You know, the ones that don't hit the goodies/victims

Take the cunt by the neck, stick it under his chin and job done. Unless your a pigeon or a very unlucky hang glider no problem .

 

[LiamO]

If only the RUC had those powers back in the day, eh? Would've sorted it all out PDQ.

I for one would have trusted them absolutely to only shoot the 'gunmen' in a crowd... and those who were 'defending' them of course (defintion of 'defending' to be decided on an adnoc/case by case basis... by individual cops).

Listen to yourself ffs.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So what, it's ok for Turkish women to be raped? That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about - somehow this shouldn't have to be our problem. Let the Turks sort it out, or someone else, anyone else.

Wtf ?

The Turks are not little children . We are not superior high and mighty holier than thou super westerners who have to take the world by the hand. The British empires gone. Lose that bloody attitude please .

To be clear, what I was suggesting is because Turkey was taking millions of refugees, because Turkey has embassies from at least all the major European countries, has good relations with them, is also part of NATO, some sort of vetting process could've taken place at those embassies by staff at those embassies, extra staff could've been brought in and by the Turkish authorities. The refugees could've been vetted and more evenly distributed across Europe and Turkey, more pressure could've been put on the gulf countries who play a huge role in the Syrian war but haven't even taken a single refugee. Any known rapists, murderers etc could've been spotted that way and refused entry to any country for asylum.

 

[LDC]

I suggested nothing of the sort. YOU suggested that Thatcherism may have created an environment where incidents of rape increased. You need to back that sort of assertion up with a fuck-lot more than 'I reckon'. Rape stats relevant to the given periods would be a reasonable starting point.

Think we're slightly misunderstanding each other, apologies. Let's move on as it's not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Casually Red]

I can see this bringing down Merkel. The idea the Germany could absorb a million people in a year was madness. It increases the German population by 1.25% at a stroke.

Exactly...it's a stupid bloody idea that can only possibly lead to major social friction. There can be no other outcome to it. The left and the neo liberals both reckoned they could keep the lid on any friction by shouting racist at anyone who disagreed . And hushing up any bad news that might upset la la land. They figured left and right had the angles covered. They were wrong. Because it was such a gigantic ally stupid idea .
And now every smaller instance is going to be further magnified due to the cover up. There'll be snowball effect . An idiot can see we're this is going.

And now they think they can reduce the snowball effect how ?

By doubling down and doing the same stupid bloody shit all over again .

 

[emanymton]

I suggested nothing of the sort. YOU suggested that Thatcherism may have created an environment where incidents of rape increased. You need to back that sort of assertion up with a fuck-lot more than 'I reckon'. Rape stats relevant to the given periods would be a reasonable starting point.

The difficulty is that there have also been some positive (for want of a better word) developments in how we view and deal with rape. Which apart from anything else has almost certainly resulted in more rapes bring reported and prosecuted. There are also things that are seen as rape now weren't in the past, such as rape within marriage. So I don't see how we could resolve this argument.

 

[Casually Red]

Did this happen then?

Yes.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes.

Link?

 

[Spymaster]

And I mean a link to immediately indentifiable people obviously preventing police intervention, working in concert with the rapists, and firing rockets at the coppers.

 

[Pickman's model]

People who are knowingly obstructing the police from preventing a mass sexual assault spree, yes. Using less lethal forms of force would be preferable but if necessary the police should have been willing to threaten, and use, lethal force against these people yes.

i thought you were ok but you seem to have taken leave of your senses

 

[Pickman's model]

To be clear, what I was suggesting is because Turkey was taking millions of refugees, because Turkey has embassies from at least all the major European countries, has good relations with them, is also part of NATO, some sort of vetting process could've taken place at those embassies by staff at those embassies, extra staff could've been brought in and by the Turkish authorities. The refugees could've been vetted and more evenly distributed across Europe and Turkey, more pressure could've been put on the gulf countries who play a huge role in the Syrian war but haven't even taken a single refugee. Any known rapists, murderers etc could've been spotted that way and refused entry to any country for asylum.

what gives you the impression embassy staff in ankara should or could vet refugees sailing from bodrum to a greek island?

 

[treelover]

I think reading first hand accounts of people who are encountering many of the young refugees in Germany, I am getting a bit of a handle about who many of them are:, many seem to be middle class, with all the modern accoutrements of that class, with a sense of entitlement not unlike the young counter protesters in say Veneuleza, an arrogance and a lack of fair play/empathy, anyone who has backpacked across Europe would have met people like them, i wouldn't be surprised if a fair few of them were the offspring of mid level Assad civil servants, etc.

this should'nt detract from the horrors many of them have witnessed, etc.