Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

The Bild today is running a story that has two unnamed policemen saying that they received direct instructions to not act on or report crimes perpetrated by asylum seekers if at all possible and if its a first offence. Headline is 'Is our police force being told to lie to us?'.
Der Sex-Mob-Skandal: Wird der Polizei verboten, die Wahrheit zu sagen?

ours are so obv the germans do too

 

[bimble]

ours are so obv the germans do too

Yep. That sort of thing will be helpful to the organisers of today's far-right marches in the square though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep. That sort of thing will be helpful to the organisers of today far-right marches in the square though.

as helpful as it was a year ago. police forces lie routinely, this should be no surprise to anyone.

 

[Indeliblelink]

Has anyone called this a terrorist attack ?
It seemed so well co-ordinated, with a kind of
'we will take your women and there's nothing you can do about it' attitude.
It seems like a new type of terrorism. Which if the case is truly chilling

There were reports that terrorists were planning attacks on German stations that night, it does at least make you wonder why there weren't more police around.
Munich suicide bomb plot: police hunt Isis suspects behind New Year's Eve threat

Munich police issued a statement saying that an attack was expected in the city during the night, and warned people to avoid the two stations and large crowds in general.

 

[rekil]

The Bild today is running a story that has two unnamed policemen saying that they received direct instructions to not act on or report crimes perpetrated by asylum seekers if at all possible and if its a first offence. Headline is 'Is our police force being told to lie to us?'.
Der Sex-Mob-Skandal: Wird der Polizei verboten, die Wahrheit zu sagen?

Exactly the kind of gleeful shit stirring one would expect from Bild. It is filth. Why post a link to it?

 

[bimble]

The uk has Pegida?
"former EDL leader Tommy Robinson launched a UK branch of Pegida from a pub in Bedfordshire. In an interview with the International Business Times, Pegida UK leader Paul Weston said the attacks in Cologne were “helping raise awareness" of the group’s cause.."

Tommy Robinson's twitter feed says this.

 

[two sheds]

If this was arranged on social media surely there'll be records that the police can trawl through?

 

[Pickman's model]

There were reports that terrorists were planning attacks on German stations that night, it does at least make you wonder why there weren't more police around.
Munich suicide bomb plot: police hunt Isis suspects behind New Year's Eve threat

you should let Casually Red know you agree with him

 

[BigMoaner]

What I think he is trying to say, and I think he is right. Is that men do not decide to become rapists in a vacuum their attitudes are shaped by the society they grow up in. Although of course everyone is unique and responds differently to the same experiences. In the case of the Middle East the societies these men have grown up in and their current situation has been massively shapped by Western foreign policy. None of this helps deal with the current situation however.
Also this is disgusting.

i'd agree if the crimes were crimes of food to mouth, of surival, of struggling in a new country, resorting to crime as a means of getting by, or belonging in a group.

touching up/raping women is something else though. i fail to see who benefits, including the perpetrators, by "factoring in western imperialism". so if someone comes from a horrible, fucked up, western fucked up country, he may become so angry that he...starts raping women. what a charmer. his personal history and environment will never excuse that, surely, and i don't think it really explains it either. the wrongness is there within the person, and it doesn't have to be. we are not totally powerless in the face of circumstance...

 

[bimble]

I'm going to risk being lampooned for doing it again but.. I think this a decent article, from the Guardian!
The left must admit the truth about the assaults on women in Cologne

 

[redsquirrel]

OK then I'll ask you the question I was going to ask treelover, who exactly are the left the aren't admitting the truth about these assaults?

 

[BigMoaner]

anyway i have no idea how to handle a situation like this, what germany can do. just hope it works out.

 

[emanymton]

i'd agree if the crimes were crimes of food to mouth, of surival, of struggling in a new country, resorting to crime as a means of getting by, or belonging in a group.

touching up/raping women is something else though. i fail to see who benefits, including the perpetrators, by "factoring in western imperialism". so if someone comes from a horrible, fucked up, western fucked up country, he may become so angry that he...starts raping women. what a charmer. his personal history and environment will never excuse that, surely, and i don't think it really explains it either. the wrongness is there within the person, and it doesn't have to be. we are not totally powerless in the face of circumstance...

So your position us that some people are just born evil?

 

[bi0boy]

If you blame "Western Imperialism" for refugees raping people, you may as well blame Thatcher for homegrown rapists.

 

[BigMoaner]

So your position us that some people are just born evil?

not at all, but i also believe that people have a free choice.

 

[LDC]

If you blame "Western Imperialism" for refugees raping people, you may as well blame Thatcher for homegrown rapists.

Hmmm, I going to risk a ripping apart here...

I think while you shouldn't of course say the sole (or even main) cause is due to what you suggest, you could construct an fairly convincing argument that the destruction of communities, the increased levels of alienation of people from their roots/families/cultural connections, and the insecurity, individualism, and poverty that Thatcherism encouraged did on some level contribute to a society where sexual attacks and assaults were going to inevitably become more commonplace. (Plus - and mainly - patriarchy/capitalism, etc.)

 

[Spymaster]

OK then I'll ask you the question I was going to ask treelover, who exactly are the left the aren't admitting the truth about these assaults?

It's not that they're not admitting them now but the fact that many weren't prepared to discuss the possibility before, despite the many reports of the appearance of the perps and statements of some of the victims. One need look no further than the opprobrium attracted by CR, Bimble, and one or two others on this very thread for evidence of that.

 

[BigMoaner]

its very important trying to understand as many mitigating, environmental pressures, things that have informed and shaped them, facing someone in regards crimes, but always with equal weight given to the role of the individuals own decisions in life.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you blame "Western Imperialism" for refugees raping people, you may as well blame Thatcher for homegrown rapists.

Four causes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bi0boy]

Hmmm, I going to risk a ripping apart here...

I think while you shouldn't of course say the sole (or even main) cause is due to what you suggest, you could construct an fairly convincing argument that the destruction of communities, the increased levels of alienation of people from their roots/families/cultural connections, and the insecurity, individualism, and poverty that Thatcherism encouraged did on some level contribute to a society where sexual attacks and assaults were going to inevitably become more commonplace. (Plus - and mainly - patriarchy/capitalism, etc.)

These poor rapists, not living in an anarchist utopia. Let's not get sidetracked from any kind of real problems or crimes here ok?

 

[frogwoman]

I don't think thats what hes saying.

 

[Spymaster]

I think while you shouldn't of course say the sole (or even main) cause is due to what you suggest, you could construct an fairly convincing argument that the destruction of communities, the increased levels of alienation of people from their roots/families/cultural connections, and the insecurity, individualism, and poverty that Thatcherism encouraged did on some level contribute to a society where sexual attacks and assaults were going to inevitably become more commonplace.

Bollocks.

 

[emanymton]

Hmmm, I going to risk a ripping apart here...

I think while you shouldn't of course say the sole (or even main) cause is due to what you suggest, you could construct an fairly convincing argument that the destruction of communities, the increased levels of alienation of people from their roots/families/cultural connections, and the insecurity, individualism, and poverty that Thatcherism encouraged did on some level contribute to a society where sexual attacks and assaults were going to inevitably become more commonplace. (Plus - and mainly - patriarchy/capitalism, etc.)

I think this could be true, but I also think that at the same time there were countervailing tendencies working in the opposite direction, but I wouldn't credit thacher with creating them. I could be wrong but I suspect the last few decades will have seen a reduction in rape within the private sphere of the home but an increase in the public sphere.

People seem to be seeing rape and sexual assault as somehow uniquely aberrant, something that exists outside of society and is brought into in, rather than as something that is formed within societies. The idea that you can explain these crimes without consider the way in which societies structure the relationships between people, and in particular between men and women is ridiculous.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not that they're not admitting them now but the fact that many weren't prepared to discuss the possibility before, despite the many reports of the appearance of the perps and statements of some of the victims. One need look no further than the opprobrium attracted by CR, Bimble, and one or two others on this very thread for evidence of that.

Can't speak for anyone else, but the opprobrium from me directed towards CR was not for that reason. As something of a student of Middle East affairs, he should have known better than to spout a lot of what he spouted. dwyer may be a bit all over the place on this too, but he has one valid point, which is that these refugees are here in Europe as a consequence of European imperialism, dating back as far as the end of WW1. The idea put forward by one or two that taking in the refugees is somehow an act of kindness that ought not to have been done as it 'spoils' European society is the height of ahistorical imperialist arrogance. It is 'liberal' in the sense that it doesn't see the structural issues or structural causes of the conflicts in the Middle East.

None of that excuses any of the men involved in Cologne. None of it, either, excludes the idea that many men in particular societies have fucked-up attitudes towards women. But neither does it make it open season for any and every bigoted and/or ahistorical, inflammatory, knee-jerk rant.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think this could be true, but I also think that at the same time there were countervailing tendencies working in the opposite direction, but I wouldn't credit thacher with creating them. I could be wrong but I suspect the last few decades will have seen a reduction in rape within the private sphere of the home but an increase in the public sphere.

People seem to be seeing rape and sexual assault as somehow uniquely aberrant, something that exists outside of society and is brought into in, rather than as something that is formed within societies. The idea that you can explain these crimes without consider the way in which societies structure the relationships between people, and in particular between men and women is ridiculous.

And to explain is not necessarily to excuse. To understand something of what goes in to the making of a rapist is not to say that any one individual rapist is not responsible for his actions.

 

[Spymaster]

Can't speak for anyone else, but the opprobrium from me directed towards CR was not for that reason. As something of a student of Middle East affairs, he should have known better than to spout a lot of what he spouted. dwyer may be a bit all over the place on this too, but he has one valid point, which is that these refugees are here in Europe as a consequence of European imperialism, dating back as far as the end of WW1. The idea put forward by one or two that taking in the refugees is somehow an act of kindness that ought not to have been done as it 'spoils' European society is the height of ahistorical imperialist arrogance. It is 'liberal' in the sense that it doesn't see the structural issues or structural causes of the conflicts in the Middle East.

None of that excuses any of the men involved in Cologne. None of it, either, excludes the idea that many men in particular societies have fucked-up attitudes towards women. But neither does it make it open season for any and every bigoted and/or ahistorical, inflammatory, knee-jerk rant.

I don't disagree with any of that but CR and others were initially aspersed for daring to acknowledge that these attacks may have had something to do with refugees. The reporting from day one suggested that it could be the case but discussing that here wasn't an option.

Granted some of his postings since then have been somewhat demented, but that's just Red!

 

[J Ed]

Cologne on BBC news, in shot of the reporter was a Die Linke protest. According to the BBC reporter they were there to protest the far-right using the attacks.

Idiots. Idiots. Idiots.

 

[Casually Red]

They SHOULD be dealt with, right there in Germany (or wherever else they organise to carry out these attacks). Suggesting deporting them is to suggest moving the problem.

It's to suggest an added deterrent, which is apparently necessary given the fact they're brazen enough to do this to scores of women right in front of dozens of cops in a city centre . Actually one of their victims was a female cop . If your assumption is these guys are habitual rapists who'll do it elsewhere then the obvious answer is why the fuck let them in and then run about unsupervised in the first place.
They arent citizens . If they lose their legal status as migrants due to engaging in gang rape then fuck them. The onus is onthem notto rape people .It's not the responsibility of western countries to massage the rape figures in the middle east by accepting a share of their rapists and lettingthem rape here instead to balance it out .

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm going to risk being lampooned for doing it again but.. I think this a decent article, from the Guardian!
The left must admit the truth about the assaults on women in Cologne

yes because having taken it apart once why not give us the opportunity to have a pop at that piece of liberal angst again. e2a i see it's a different piece of liberal angst and would be interested to hear why you believe it a goodd article.

 

[Casually Red]

Can't speak for anyone else, but the opprobrium from me directed towards CR was not for that reason. As something of a student of Middle East affairs, he should have known better than to spout a lot of what he spouted. dwyer may be a bit all over the place on this too, but he has one valid point, which is that these refugees are here in Europe as a consequence of European imperialism, dating back as far as the end of WW1. The idea put forward by one or two that taking in the refugees is somehow an act of kindness that ought not to have been done as it 'spoils' European society is the height of ahistorical imperialist arrogance. It is 'liberal' in the sense that it doesn't see the structural issues or structural causes of the conflicts in the Middle East.

None of that excuses any of the men involved in Cologne. None of it, either, excludes the idea that many men in particular societies have fucked-up attitudes towards women. But neither does it make it open season for any and every bigoted and/or ahistorical, inflammatory, knee-jerk rant.

Fuck off. I haven't blamed Arabs, I haven't blamed Islam..I've very consciously not gone down that road . I've blamed this squarely on a culture of criminality and nothing else . In case you haven't noticed there's now literally thousands signing up in cologne to act as vigilantes . This is happening . This is bad . Very bad . And the left can do fuck all to counter it . Except apparently to tell people to shut up and call them racists .