How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[elbows]

So, to be clear, you are talking about rumour and innuendo?

Yes, very much so. For the sake of any possible victims out there, those certainly aren't the only words I would use to describe this stuff though, words like allegation and accusation should also be used, and names of specific police operations mentioned.

One of the notable characteristics of the Savile abuse and its implications for society, the media, and a range of authorities and institutions, was the degree to which rumours about his offending existed over large swathes of time. So there are important lessons to be learnt on that front, and clear reasons why the pursuit of other high-profile, historical offenders have made use of historical rumours as starting points, or at least not dismissed them out of hand if they've come up in the course of investigations. We can discuss rumours sensibly without implying that they are proof of anything.

 

[elbows]

I was too young to experience the SRA stuff first hand but did a fair bit of research into it a few years ago as a matter of interest - were you aware of the allegations then and, if so, what was your view on Dickens at the time and subsequently?

Nothing I historically knew of SRA and the way its been reported over the years involved Dickens, and I doubt I experienced the initial reporting of it first hand, was too young or not paying attention.

But long-time participants in this thread were well aware of Dickens, including some of his downsides and his position on the political and rhetorical spectrum, many many months before the 'Dickens dossiers' became something of a press fixation. If memory serves me correctly, a lot of our attention would have been on the naming of Peter Hayman in parliament by Dickens. A lot of the posts about him were probably by me, and I expect a lot of my recent comments about the possible low quality of his dossiers would have been entirely absent because the dossiers were not where our attention was. Since Hayman is the one instance that met your criteria for proven earlier, you can probably imagine why Dickens naming of him, and the consequences, would have been considered interesting.

I believe there were a number of occasions on the thread where certain commentators in the media, and historical articles, made comparison to the SRA stuff and false panic, including considering what might happen in the wake of Savile. They tended to draw suspicion here when they appeared to be overdoing it and pushing for an atmosphere which would, whilst perhaps saving some innocent people from damaging and false accusations, not likely encourage the exposure of historical abuse in the manner the Savile revelations clearly deem necessary.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...interview-no-doubt-one-politician-abused-kids

 

[laptop]

Mirror has the perfect tabloid story:

VIP paedophile ring 'abused teenage boy INSIDE Buckingham Palace and Balmoral Castle'

 

[elbows]

Here are the Exaro versions of that palace story:

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5420/revealed-buried-files-link-buckingham-palace-to-paedophilia
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5419/buckingham-palace-drawn-into-scandal-over-paedophile-ring

Fun timing considering we were just discussing this stuff yesterday, and I linked to the page that has all the reports earlier this month. At least Exaro were honest enough to admit where & when the info came from, and that the media hadn't noticed this stuff at the time.

I can take the story a bit more seriously now that there is a Peter Hayman link. But since the parents and the son declined to comment to Exaro, and we just have some friend of the family adding words to the story, I'm still finding it rather hard to rule out possibilities that could be more complicated than the term abuse would do justice to.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Sunday Express is carrying a story that associates of Willie McRae believe he was murdered by security forces because he had information on a Westminster paedophile ring.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/541793/SNP-activist-killed-over-child-sex-files

For those who don't know of him, MacRae was a solicitor and well-known SNP activist who died in mysterious circumstances in 1985. There have been many theories about his death (some remarkably nutty), but it remains the case that there are also curiosities. He was said to have committed suicide by shooting himself in the head on a remote Highland road. However, the gun was found some distance from his body - 60 feet - too far to have fallen from his hand, seems also to have been fired twice, and had no fingerprints, although MacRae had not been wearing gloves. He had also changed a tyre some miles back on the remote road (a separate incident from the slashed tyres in the Express story - that's a new revelation. Or new to me). It is questioned why he'd do that only to drive on a few miles before shooting himself (the spot he was found now has a cairn to mark his death, but at the time of his death was no more significant than any other place on the road). The briefcase he was known to have been carrying when he left Glasgow was not found. And so on. (I have a book somewhere on the case. He was a friend of a friend).

Whatever the truth of the claim he was about to expose the paedophile ring, the Sunday Express in Scotland carries the claim on its front page.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They're heavily invested in this. So I think they must believe it. I find that more credible than the alternative narrative that they are establishment stooges.

Investment doesn't necessarily imply belief (for even a journeyman journo, belief is the last thing you want - what you seek is detachment). It could as likely imply that they have access to material that's currently sub judice, or material that they can't report until they've confirmed it. For journos, tracking down witnesses and victims just a couple of years after a crime is hard enough. Standing up a 30+ year-old case is exponentially more difficult.

 

[ViolentPanda]

(ii) What is claimed - roughly in ascending order, coordinated child sex abuse by members of the establishment, that was protected by the security services and involved the murder of those children.

The "Establishment" paedophile network isn't particularly characterised by claims of murder, so your point (such as it is) is badly made. Whereas it is characterised by claims of sexual abuse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is an admittedly rather barmy website (with an impressively old school approach) but it provides an interesting take on things and apparently sprung up in opposition to the original SRA panic:

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dickens.htm

It claims that there were 7 dickens dossiers in total and that they sprawled from allegations against Hayman and the PIE, through to the current day Westminster abuse scandal and along the way took in apparently homophobic accusations at Buckingham palace before ending up at SRA and the procedure used to look into it.

The picture they paint of Dickens is of a very opinionated, bigoted, energetic and unreliable character.

SAFF was set up and run by someone who was a direct victim of Dickens, and of Roger Cook's attempted monstering. He also had his shop torched as a result of the ensuing media coverage. It's not just barmy, it's credulous and biased too. Chris is a well-meaning fruitcake.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nothing I historically knew of SRA and the way its been reported over the years involved Dickens, and I doubt I experienced the initial reporting of it first hand, was too young or not paying attention.

But long-time participants in this thread were well aware of Dickens, including some of his downsides and his position on the political and rhetorical spectrum, many many months before the 'Dickens dossiers' became something of a press fixation. If memory serves me correctly, a lot of our attention would have been on the naming of Peter Hayman in parliament by Dickens. A lot of the posts about him were probably by me, and I expect a lot of my recent comments about the possible low quality of his dossiers would have been entirely absent because the dossiers were not where our attention was. Since Hayman is the one instance that met your criteria for proven earlier, you can probably imagine why Dickens naming of him, and the consequences, would have been considered interesting.

I believe there were a number of occasions on the thread where certain commentators in the media, and historical articles, made comparison to the SRA stuff and false panic, including considering what might happen in the wake of Savile. They tended to draw suspicion here when they appeared to be overdoing it and pushing for an atmosphere which would, whilst perhaps saving some innocent people from damaging and false accusations, not likely encourage the exposure of historical abuse in the manner the Savile revelations clearly deem necessary.

With regard to SRA, Dickens got most of his information from (as mentioned previously on this thread) a small clique of UK "concerned Christians" who worked in church voluntary social welfare organisations or in the social services. His SRA "dossiers" mostly re-hashed or geographically-relocated stories from the US, or iterated parts of UK abuse investigations from what were extremely-poorly conducted interrogations of children If you've had the misfortune to read even a random selection of the transcripts (from the few recordings that weren't "lost" or destroyed), you can see a thick web of leading questions that informed what the children then reported. The likes of Diane Core (founder of the Childwatch charity) and Valerie Sinason (an academic pyschologist of little repute outside of synthesising abuse scares) lent the dossiers spurious credibility, but they were shite. Chris Bray lost his business, and an acquaintance lost his job, and later drank himself to death, because of the witch's brew Dickens and his cohorts stirred up. Dickens' credulity may have spoiled as many or more lives than the abuse he "reported" did.

 

[elbows]

This is one of many reasons why I keep saying that I'm looking for prosecutions that were not the subject of historical rumour, and why I treat all the historical rumours with a variety of suspicions, whilst not ruling them out.

Diane Core (Childwatch) probably needs more attention since she's been quoted in a variety of articles regarding abuse post-Savile.

 

[elbows]

Her attitude towards reality and facts versus feelings and suspicions doesn't seem to have improved, at least as of March this year.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Did-...ec-Alexander/story-20818518-detail/story.html

THE founder of a children's charity believes a paedophile former police chief who was jailed for raping his own daughter may have abused others.

Ex-Humberside Police chief superintendent Alec Alexander was jailed for ten years in 2008 for raping and abusing his daughter Sarah and possessing almost 66,000 indecent images of children.

"I know that Alexander has other victims, I have a gut feeling," said Mrs Core.

"I know he's got victims elsewhere. If two or three of them could have the courage to come forward."

Mrs Core, an expert on paedophiles, who has counselled their victims, believes Alexander may even have been part of a paedophile ring in Hull.

"There's a central point of evil that involves child abuse in the city and it needs sorting," she said.

"There's a suppurating boil in the city of Hull that needs lancing and those people who put a plaster on it every five months to keep it from opening – one day they won't be able to stop it opening up and letting all its filth out."

She described Alexander as "very cold, no emotion at all, quite calculating", adding: "The man is vile and this is the tip of a very nasty iceberg. I suspect his activities run very deep and very wide."

 

[elbows]

Actually maybe she has only been quoted once in recent times in relation to political paedophiles. In the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-detailing-Westminster-paedophile-ring.html

A child abuse campaigner who worked closely with Mr Dickens said the missing dossier could have toppled the government of the day.

Dianne Core, who founded the charity Childwatch in the 1980s, would not reveal the names of the alleged Westminster paedophiles she believes were in the file.

But she claimed some belonged to Mrs Thatcher’s government – and called on David Cameron to help end the cover-up. ‘This file will never see the light of day because it could have brought a government down. It will have been shredded and burned,’ she said.

 

[AnIdiot]

Anonymous now seem to be on the case: https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpDeathEaters?src=hash

 

[laptop]

Anonymous now seem to be on the case: https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpDeathEaters?src=hash

I can feel this going well already

 

[el-ahrairah]

Anonymous now seem to be on the case: https://twitter.com/hashtag/OpDeathEaters?src=hash

not sure i find that particularly reassuring.

 

[AnIdiot]

not sure i find that particularly reassuring.

nor me

 

[elbows]

Even by their standards its shit in so many ways.

What the UK media depicts as "child sex" has left children missing the lower half of their bodies.

Unlike in Gabon, the UK media is following the direction of the Paedophile Information Exchange and telling you these people are child lovers who need understanding and tolerance. They are telling you this is sex. Who controls the words controls your thoughts.

The CSA inquiry in the UK is an attempt to depict a powerful cult as a string of isolated incidents of "sex abuse". The complicit UK media is running a huge propaganda campaign to conflate torture and murder with "paedophilia" and call for understanding of "paedophilia". This is not a group of sad paedophiles who need help and understanding. This is a torture and death cult with a powerful global human trafficking network. We demand that torture and murder be called torture and murder, not sex. This is an international cult and needs to be investigated as one, not simply as an endless series of isolated incidents confined to the UK. We call upon our comrades globally to help us investigate and demand an end to to the trafficking networks with arrests at the top not just the bottom. We demand an end to human trafficking and abuse complicity worldwide.

http://pastebin.com/1fjmHCnr

 

[frogwoman]

This reads like a cross between nambla propaganda and conspiraloonery

 

[danny la rouge]

not sure i find that particularly reassuring.

I'm certain I don't.

 

[Diamond]

The "Establishment" paedophile network isn't particularly characterised by claims of murder, so your point (such as it is) is badly made. Whereas it is characterised by claims of sexual abuse.

My point was clearly made but I suspect that you choose to misunderstand it. To be clear, it is - in recent days the claims of an establishment paedophile ring have developed to encompass the murder of children. Because of the gravity of such claims, we should look to their associated epistemology before we take them seriously.

SAFF was set up and run by someone who was a direct victim of Dickens, and of Roger Cook's attempted monstering. He also had his shop torched as a result of the ensuing media coverage. It's not just barmy, it's credulous and biased too. Chris is a well-meaning fruitcake.

What do you make of this guy's take on the current claims then? For ease of reference, his analysis is here:

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dickens.htm

And for the not so curious it is summarised at the top of that page by the following:

WE TOLD YOU SO! Dickens 'Westminster Dossier' was just another collection of third-hand anecdotal tittle-tattle sent to him in letters which didn't stand the test of law. Allegations against Leon Brittan utterly false

 

[ViolentPanda]

My point was clearly made but I suspect that you choose to misunderstand it.

It's fairly easy to misunderstand. You said "....coordinated child sex abuse by members of the establishment....involved the murder of those children". Not "some of those children" or "a few of those children", but "involved the murder of those children".

To be clear, it is - in recent days the claims of an establishment paedophile ring have developed to encompass the murder of children. Because of the gravity of such claims, we should look to their associated epistemology before we take them seriously.

Claims of Establishment paedophile rings occasionally killing their victims aren't just recent, they're historic too

What do you make of this guy's take on the current claims then? For ease of reference, his analysis is here:

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/dickens.htm

And for the not so curious it is summarised at the top of that page by the following:

I make of it that a bloke I knew (I donated to SAFF back when it was called "Sorcerers' Apprentice Fighting Fund" and was a way of raising money to take the fight to the likes of Dickens) pretty much went fruitcake 25 years ago when he had his livelihood burned out from under him, and was and is persistently persecuted by local evangelical Christians. He shapes stories to fit his perceptions of how things "are". This is bucket rather than pinch of salt stuff.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Don Hale in the Star yesterday:

Labour’s John Mann, who has campaigned to uncover details of a Westminster paedophile ring operating in the 1970s and 80s, said he expected police to swoop in the New Year.

The news came as it emerged former policemen who have investigated the abuse network have been warned they could be arrested for breaching the Official Secrets Act if they speak out now.

There are calls for the retired officers to be given an amnesty from prosecution if they reveal what they know.

We can reveal that ex-Special Branch detective Tony Robinson says he received warnings about repeating facts relating to disgraced Liberal MP Cyril Smith and over his monitoring of other politicians.

Tony, 81, now retired and in poor health, said he was “shocked and surprised” by warnings from his old bosses at Lancashire Police.

He said they told him his knowledge was still protected by the Official Secrets Act (OSA), adding that he should not speak to the media.

Tony, who retired more than 20 years ago, said: “I took this call from a man at my old HQ telling me not to speak about things from years ago.
“I could hardly believe it.

"They have not been in touch for years and then to threaten me or point out that I am still covered by the OSA was ridiculous.

“The whole incident has stressed me out – I’m not well and can’t be doing with all this.”

Tony was the officer who found Cyril Smith’s prosecution files “deliberately hidden” in a Special Branch safe in Preston in the early 1970s [...]​

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/412932/Two-MPs-face-child-sex-abuse-arrest

FYI Tony Robinson was one of the former Special Branch officers interviewed on camera by Peter Taylor in his 2002 series, True Spies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/true_spies/2351169.stm

Transcripts of his contributions:

http://issuu.com/bristlekrs/docs/avt015_ts-vid001_2_3_-_true_spies_-

 

[elbows]

Much as I believe it has been very useful at times for people to speak to the media, and may well be in future if investigations go nowhere, I'm more interested in them speaking to official investigators at this stage. So calls for an amnesty regarding the official secrets act sometimes confuse me - are they actually at risk if they tell the authorities what they know, as opposed to telling the media? Because I really don't imagine an amnesty that leaves them completely free to talk to the media happening, and it really isn't clear to me how much of an issue it is.

 

[elbows]

I see John Allen got life. I was avoiding talking about it till sentencing was done, but I expect there are still some limits because others are due in court next year.

I note that what some consider to be the 'juicy' bit of the North Wales care home stuff, that boys were supplied from there to parties, has been in the news in recent days and the NCA have now come out and denied they are investigating him for supplying boys to others.

Meanwhile, a National Crime Agency spokesman denied it was investigating Allen in connection with supplying boys to child sex parties for prominent political figures at Dolphin Square in central London, which was reported in the Sunday Times.

"We do not have any evidence to suggest that John Allen supplied children for others," said the spokesman.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-30268731

The main thing we'd heard about this angle in the past was Peter Morrison visiting one of the North Wales homes, although we'll have to wait a while to see if anything comes of that. And one victim who gave a video interview to Sky news some years back, which spoke of bring driven down to London for the parties. But the likes of the Mirror are reporting details that suggest a link between the North Wales stuff and Lambeth:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prolific-child-abuser-john-allen-4727494

Too much in there to quote it all, but here is a small sample:

Margaret Thatcher's former aide Sir Peter Morrison is suspected of abusing boys in Allen's care in Wales while a former minister in Tony Blair's government is currently being probed over his alleged visits to Carroll's Angell Road children's home in Lambeth, south London.

Official papers from that year show a boy placed in a Lambeth home was abused by Carroll, known as MJC, while two of the boy's brothers went to a Bryn Allen Community in Wales where youngsters were attacked by Allen.

The internal Lambeth council document, dated 23 September, 1998, states: "Additional information not yet in a statement is that the third brother of witness 1 and 2 was placed at Bryn Allen Community not Angell Road.

"However he has confirmed that he knew MJC who used to visit John Allen at the community.

Another document dated September 18, 1998, reveals officers from Merseyside's Operation Care, who successfully investigated Carroll, were aware of the links.

It states: "Operation care (sic) has suggested a tie-up between Lambeth children and the enquiry in North Wales. North Wales Police say that Lambeth was informed of this in 1991."

Carroll took boys on camping trips to the Caernarfon, north Wales, where he ran the Ozaman charity in the 1980s and later opened a hotel near Wrexham, where many children from the North Wales homes were abused.

Like I said, plenty more in the full article, but upon initial inspection not much we can get our teeth into beyond the links between Allen and Carroll.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Even by their standards its shit in so many ways.

What the UK media depicts as "child sex" has left children missing the lower half of their bodies.

http://pastebin.com/1fjmHCnr

I think what they are doing is massively conflating that particular quote with the disturbing death of Vishal Mehrotra who has been linked to the events at Elm Tree Guesthouse.

Part of Vishal’s body was found in woodland in West Sussex in February 1982, seven months after he disappeared. There was no trace of his legs, pelvis or lower spine or of his outer clothes or Superman underwear.

Although there's been no concrete proof his death was linked to events there. Full article

 

[elbows]

Thanks for the link. At least its possible to work out how they leapt to that conclusion. Unlike the totally bizarre comments about the media somehow being soft on people by describing them only as paedophiles, and the suggestion that paedophiles are pittied rather than demonised by the press. Quite who that message is going to resonate with given its staggering detachment from reality is beyond me.

 

[Barking_Mad]

There's some useful stuff on the always excellent Spotlight On Abuse website re: Vishal's disappearance. Tragic and curious even if you chose to discount the Elm Tree Guesthouse angle that has been suggested by various people.

Here

 

[Barking_Mad]

More on John Allen and supposed links to Tory and Labour governments

Two notorious paedophiles were at the centre of a nationwide network of abusers which allegedly included both Labour and Tory politicians, a Mirror investigation has found.

Detectives suspected 16 years ago that the children's home abuse ring spanned the country and involved hundreds of victims.

Official documents show paedophiles John Allen, 73, and Michael John Carroll, 66, were friends when they were abusing youngsters North Wales and London respectively in the 1980s.

Their links can be revealed on the day Allen was jailed for life for sexually abusing 19 children he was paid to look after.

Margaret Thatcher's former aide Sir Peter Morrison is suspected of abusing boys in Allen's care in Wales while a former minister in Tony Blair's government is currently being probed over his alleged visits to Carroll's Angell Road children's home in Lambeth, south London

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prolific-child-abuser-john-allen-4727494

 

[elbows]

Thats the same one I linked to yesterday evening.